lienshan
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So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the mystical side of the folk religion could help me understand
how it relates to the philosophical ideas. Doesn't all that striving and praying cloud the whole concept?
So I'm just wondering if anyone here who practices the philosophical ideas could help me understand
how it relates to the mystical side of the folk religion. Doesn't all that thinking and analyzing cloud the whole concept?
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The lines almost look like a manual for confusianism:
The lines of the Guodian chapter look like a humanization of "the Great One gives birth to Water":
The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.
The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.
The great skill is like a hump.
The great posture is like a stoop.
The great straight one is like a crooked one.
Activity overcomes the cold.
Passivity overcomes the heat.
Can clarity be considered the healing of the world?
It's IMO a mistake to read/translate the chapter literal as Laozi expressing his own point of view.
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I can't question your reasoning because I do not have the ability to test.
To increase one's body temperature by activity and to decrease it by passivity is an ability.
An ability is ziran and cannot be graduated by the adjective great.
To read and translate classical chinese is a skill.
A skill isn't ziran and can be graduated by the adjective great.
This interpretation is ofcourse impossible to accept if one believe in the Great Tao
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The great challenge of reading/translating the Guodian chapter is to use five terms
which cannot be graduated by the adjective great. I've chosen:
perfection, fullness, ability, erect posture, straight one
perfection doesn't give presents = perfection has no surplus
fullness doesn't dehydrate = fullness has no shortage
What can be graduated is one's feeling of cold/heat by activity/passivity.
It's not the cold or the heat that's being graduated.
That's Laozi's commentary to the graduation of 大一 The Great One (the great straight one)
The last line is in the Guodian chapter formulated as a sarchastic question.
The doubled character can be read as either clarity or clear clearness?
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The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.
The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.
The great ability is like a hump.
The great erect posture is like a stoop.
The great straight one is like a crooked one.
Activity overcomes the cold.
Passivity overcomes the heat.
Can clear clearness be considered the healing of the world?
I read the lines in bold as connected, describing the defect and a possible cure?
The first of these four lines is quoted in Zhuangzi chapter 10:
If the hook and line were destroyed, the compass and square thrown away, and the fingers of men (like) the artful Khui smashed, all men would begin to possess and employ their (natural) skill - as it is said, 'The greatest art is like stupidity.' If conduct such as that of Zeng (Shen) and Shi (Qiu) were discarded, the mouths of Yang (Zhu) and Mo (Di) gagged, and benevolence and righteousness seized and thrown aside, the virtue of all men would begin to display its mysterious excellence. (James Legge translation)
Destroy- and cut to pieces the curve and plumb line, throw away the compass and square, shackle the fingers of Artisan Ch'ui, and for the first time the people of the world will possess real skill. Thus it is said, "Great skill is like clumsiness." Put a stop to the ways of Tseng and Shih, gag the mouths of Yang and Mo, wipe out and reject benevolence and righteousness, and for the first time the Virtue of the world will reach the state of Mysterious Leveling. (Burton Watson translation)
Crumble to smithereens the curve and plumb line and throw away the compass and T-square, smack the back of Chui's fingers with a ruler, and the people of the world would appreciate their own artistry.
There's an old saying:
"Great talent seems clumsy."
Wipe out all traces left by Zeng and Shi, gag the mouths of Yang and Mo, push away and discard benevolence and righteousness, and the virtues of the world would mysteriously mesh. (Nina Correa translation) -
(Lines 8 - 10 seem to be understood as a separate saying.)
Is it Laozi's text that has a defect or is it Henrick's translation that has a defect?
Is it the world that that has a defect or is it the Great One theory that has a defect?
The defect occurs in line 1 and Laozi suggests a cure in line 10
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The Guodian chapter 45
大成若缺，其用不幣。
大盈若盅，其用不窮。
大巧若拙，
大呈若詘，
大直若屈。
燥勝凔，
清勝熱，
清清可以为天下定。
The great perfection is like a defect, it uses not giving presents.
The great fullness is like a depletion, it uses not dehydrating.
The great ability is like a hump.
The great posture is like a stoop.
The great straight one is like a crooked one.
Activity overcomes the cold.
Passivity overcomes the heat.
Clarity may be considered the healing of the world?
大一 The Great One is the subject of this chapter. Most clearly in the fifth line:
The number one character 一 is a straight line and is in the I Ching a steady (passive) line.
The number six character V is a crooked line and is in the I Ching a changing (active) line.
大一生水 The Great One gives birth to Water is the passive becoming the active.
It's the turning point in all "oneness" theories; the shift from singleness to the multitude?
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who can become perfectly still
is able to govern the World
Yeah, I governed the World five minutes ago
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3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
Exclamatory sentences were in pre-Qin classical chinese expressed by inversion of the subject and the predicate. That'll say the characters of the two sentences must be read in this order:
3. 天地之始無名。
4. 萬物之母有名。
But I agree that 恆 heng is the subject of chapter one.
Inspired by dawei is my take on it infiniteness/infinite and not eternity/eternal.
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I'm just curious, how do you justify that....???
The character 而 meant if in pre-Qin chinese when its position behind the subject of sentence.
I read 長 as the subject of the sentence, a noun, meaning an adult human being.
That'll say if an adult human being is synonymous with the term in manhood
Governance is the act of governing.
It consists of either a separate process or part of decision-making or leadership processes.
To distinguish the term governance from government: "governance" is what a "governing body" does.
That'll say without governance is synonymous with the wellknown term wu wei
Raise it but not controlling it, isn't wu wei
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First, it is too far off from all other translations I have read
長而弗宰
In manhood without governance. (lienshan)
Raise it but not controlling it, (ChiDragon)
To be a leader, not a butcher, (John Wu)
Guiding without interfering, (English/Feng)
It matures them but doesn't rule them. (Robert Henricks)
Guiding them but not controlling them. (Beck)
It leads them but does not master them. (Chan)
It fosters growth without ruling. (Cleary)
Acts as elder and does not rule. (Hansen)
Presides but doesn't rule. (LaFargue)
Growing yet without directing. (Lindauer)
Is superior, and does not control them. (Lin Yutan)
Guides, but does not control. (Mabry)
Shaping without forcing, (Merel)
Leads without forcing. (Mitchell)
Cultivates without controlling. (Red Pine)
Leading without dominating. (Walker)
It lets them grow, without tyrannizing them. (Wieger)
Assists them without taking credit. (World)
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The classic character 弗 was not tabooed. It was only an ancient character which is no longer use anymore in the modern time. The character 不 is used instead.
Professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank writes on page 105 in his Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar:
The history of bu 不 and fu 弗 is complicated by the fact that the character fu 弗 was tabooed
for a time during the Han dynasty because it was part of the personal name of Liu Fuling 劉弗陵
who reigned as the Emperor Zhao 昭 from -86 to -74. We know from manuscript evidence that
this resulted in the replacement of 弗 by 不 in the transmitted text of the Dao de Jing 道德經
My advice:
Please spread your misinformations somewhere else; did you read it in a chinese newspaper?
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First, it is too far off from all other translations I have read
The character 弗 was tabooed, when the Received version was written, and was replaced by 不
生而不有，為而不恃，長而不宰 and Laozi's original version 生而弗有，為而弗恃，長而弗宰
The negative particle 弗 no preceeded nouns.
The negative particle 不 not preceeded verbs and adjectives.
The term 長而 in manhood occurs in the James Legge translation of the confucian analects:
子曰：幼而不孫弟，長而無述焉，老而不死
The Master said : "In youth not humble as befits a junior; in manhood, doing nothing worthy of being handed down; and living on to old age ..."
The grammatical explanation: when 而 meant if then was its position behind the subject of sentence.
I do know that the above is darkness to you but now you know the reason why some of the translations you read are flipsy-flopsy nonsense based on the lottery of picking the most pleasing word from a modern chinese dictionary
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The second line is a Laozi addition and I read the four lines in this way:
In childhood without possessions.
In youth without reliance.
In manhood without governance.
This is called the Te of the darkness.
The first line tells why benevolence is unnatural.
The first line tells why fillial piety is unnatural.
The first line tells why righteousness is unnatural.
The darkness is natural while the mystery isn't in my reading of the character 玄
The darkness is too opposite to the Ta Yi Sheng Shui term 神明 spirit and light
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That's true in the Received version but that's not true in the Mawangdui versions:The next four lines are exactly repeated in Chapter 10 as an ending too.
The Mawangdui chapter 10: 生而弗有，長而弗宰也，是胃玄德。
The Mawangdui chapter 51: □□弗有也，為而弗寺也，長而弗宰也。此之謂玄德。
The difference is 為而弗寺也
That'll say Laozi wrote to versions; either adding or omitting the different characters.
That's the same story with the two versions of the chapter 64 in the Guodian version.
This indicates that Tao Te Ching wasn't published by Laozi himself,
because he wouldn't have used something that he had editted himself.
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What's already divided is the valley (into what's material and what's nonmaterial).
The spirit is an additional subdivision of what's material.
The spirit uses what's nonmaterial.
The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.
These are called the swinggates of the mysterious female and the female of darkness.
These are called is called the roots of heaven and earth.
The echoing sound of the subdivision's subdivision is like an existing one.
It uses its nonmaterial one.
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What's already divided is the valley (into what's material and what's nonmaterial).
The spirit is a further subdivision of what's nonmaterial.
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I find the doubled character in line 4 of the Mawangdui B version interesting:
a part of something already dividedThe pictograph shows a hanged man which refers to the spirit of a dead one:
The spirit is a single ten thousand thing who has spoken. (Shuo Gua §6)
The doubled character of the Received version is this more neutral character:
everlasting / endless / weakThe pictograph shows the cotton used to make a thread.
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In your third line you suggest that the mysterious female AND the female of darkness are the roots of heaven and earth.
However, we know that Tao is the root of heaven and earth.
I read the five lines of the Mawangdui B version in this way:
line 1: Laozi expresses his own opinion in a statement: The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.
line 2: Laozi quotes somebody else (These are called..)
line 3: Laozi quotes somebody else (These are called..)
line 4: Laozi comments the two quotes.
line 5: Laozi expresses his own opinion in a conclusion: I use the nonmaterial one.
The problem with reading Tao Te Ching as a cookbook is,
that whenever he quotes somebody else, to show what he is talking about,
then are these quotes being read and translated as if he expresses his own point of view.
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Are you sure you can justify, from the Chinese characters, the mysterious female and the female of the darkness?
These two lines have exactly the same structure:
是胃玄牝玄牝之門
是胃天地之根 These 是 are called 胃 the roots 根 of 之 the heaven 天 and the earth 地
The last line is easily read. The heaven and the earth are two roots (with a space in between).
To read the heaven and the earth as being one single root makes no sense in my opinion.
門 is a pictograph of the swinggates; a gate consisting of two parts.
玄 means both the mystery/mysterious and the darkness/dark. (the context decides which one).
牝 means the female.
That'll say if you read the first line in exactly the same way as you read the following easily read line,
then is the and between 玄牝 and 玄牝 what the author guides you to read in the difficult line.
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I've never thought about that but, yes, I think it would be the other way around. The mysterious female.
The problem with this chapter is, that the translators break the lines against the ancient grammar rules:
浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。
but doing so would in classical chinese demand a 也 character behind 玄牝之門 so the correct syntax is:
浴神不死，是胃玄牝玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。
The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.
These are the swinggates of the mysterious female and the female of the darkness.
These are called the roots of the heaven and the earth.
I try to read two female types; a supernatural and a natural:
the spirit - the mysterious female - the heaven
the valley - the female of the darkness - the earth
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Ah, my spirit of the valley has reared her head again.
Yes, I have always viewed this as the Yin principle, the place of rest, the passive. Sure, even the dark side of the mountain is fitting.
the swinggates ( the roots / heaven and earth / two mountainsides) + the space in betweenThe space in between is considered as consisting of two elements: the darkness + the spirit
They are called the (male of) darkness and the female of darkness.
They are in the Mawangdui chapter 1 called the darkness and its additional darkness.
Is the darkness equal to Yang and is its additional darkness equal to Yin? Or is it the other way around?
The dark side of the material mountain is fitting the Yin principle ... no problem.
But is the nonmaterial part of the valley fitting the Yin principle ... that's the problem!
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Keeping that in mind now passage 6 from LZ B from Mawangdui
浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。
The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.
It is called the female of the darkness.
There are the swinggates of the female of the darkness.
They are called the roots of heaven and earth.
The laughing sound of endless endless is like an existing one.
We use its immaterial one.
谷 and 浴 are as Chidragon says interchangeable both meaning the valley.
The first refer to the two material mountains which form the valley. These two are called the roots.
The latter refer to what's in between the two mountains.
In springtime a stream and in autumn a pit; like the trigram Water/Pit.
And ofcourse some empty space making the laughing sound of echoes possible.
I read the female of darkness as referring to the Yin-Yang theory ... what's the Yin of Yin?
Yin is originally defined as the dark side of a mountain that'll say one material side of the valley.
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<BUMP>
As Offer only valid for today/tomorrow !!!
Lao-tzu Ch 2: 有 & 無
in Daodejing
Posted
I agree ... and read the actual Guodian chapter 2 line this way:
有亡之相生也
Existence and nonexistence are together a birth.
This point of view is too expressed in the Guodian chapter 40:
返也者道動也
弱也者道之用也
天下之物生於有生於亡
The traditionalist reconstructs Tao.
The newcomer is going to use Tao.
The matter of the world is born in existence, is born from nonexistence.