lienshan

I agree so lets try valleystreams here in this chapter. A term like 'the spirit of vallystreams' makes no sense so a grammatical plausible solution is: Valleystreams and spirits do not die. This is called the mysterious femaleness. That'll say Laozi points at a principle and not something specific. That valleystreams are inside valleys and spirits are inside bodies might be what they have in common? If so then the second last line of the chapter 綿綿若存 means: The softness of softness is equal to being alive.

浴 is too used in the Mawangdui chapter 66 which confirms your information, that the two characters 浴 and 谷 were interchangable meaning "valley" or "valley streams". But I tried to give his "to bathe" a chance

以為 means "to think, to consider" The 之 has in this sentence construction a grammatical function changing the preceeding character from being a verb or an adjective into an adverb (-ly). 有之 and 無之 means litteral translated "existing made" and "not existing made". This grammatical function of 之 was common in classical chinese but disappeared in Han-times. So Laozi was writing about how he looked at and defined the spokes and the axle hole of a wheel. The essential difference between buddhism and Laozi's daoism is using your truth: "Life is a poor axle hole" versus "Life is both the spokes and the axlehole" "Life is an illusion" versus "Life is living"

故有之以為利無之以為用 Therefore is materially considered beneficial and nonmaterially considered useful. There are more ways to read and understand the old text. I read and understand it as an arguement against the "yin and yang theory"! He only deals directly with the subject in his chapter 42 writing: The tenthousand things carry yin on the back and hold yang in arms. He defines yin and yang as material related only dealing with what's beneficial. What's nonmaterial and thus useful can't be discriminated as being either yin or yang. "sukha" (having a good axe hole) and "dukha" (having a poor axe hole) is a matter of comfort.

Emptiness isn't empty! A really hard blow to those having Emptiness as their main daoist concept

I read the lines as dealing with the consequences of the opening Ta Yi Sheng Shui line: The Great One gives birth to Water. Dao giving birth once is the first born second. The second giving birth to a third is a third born everyone. The ancient chinese characters meaning one, two, three did too mean once, twice, trice and first, second, third. That'll say I read the chapter as speaking against dualism. Both the Yin/Yang dualism and the boiling/evaporating dualism. And therefore implicit too against the emptiness/fullness dualism.

萬物負陰而抱陽 沖氣以為和 Everyone carries Yin on the back and hold Yang in arms. Boiling and evaporating are considered in harmony. Laozi's chapter 42 seems too to deal with your play with your 'wave particle duality'? The first line tells, that a human being is neccessary to make the Yin-Yang harmony work. The next line tells, that energy is neccessary to make the boiling-evaporating harmony work. And it's the same with the swedish scientists; they needed energy to create light from emptiness.

Thanks for your great post My approach is the Guodian bamboo slip version buried 312 BC exavacated 1993 and published 1998 that'll say later than your version. The Guodian bamboo slip version is in my opinion a first hand copy of Laozi's original rawmaterial manuscript kept in the library in the Chu capitol Ying. But let's talk chapter 25: 法 'follows' occurs in all four lines in all Tao Te Ching versions. I read the character as pointing to the mohist 'three 法 'standards' or 'models': The source 法 is that statements must have imperical basis through senses. The use 法 is that statements must produce benefit for the state, clan or people. The root 法 is the historical evidence provided by ancient sage kings. That'll say I read Laozi as pointing at a fourth 法 not included in the mohist scheme. So I wonder when reading your last line, because isn't 'Earth following Heaven' what is natural too? That's why I read the four lines as one single arguementation of four components: Man 法 Earth is to Earth 法 Heaven like Heaven 法 Dao is to Dao 法 by itself 'by itself' is how I understand the term 'ziran' in my native language, because what is natural? Or what is not natural?

Reminds me of these words: I simply could not have expressed it more simple or better myself flowing hands ... maybe we should continue in the Tao Te Ching forum in this site? I and others are interested in talking about some of the difficult to understand chapters! I am myself most interested in those chapters that are in the exavacated Guodian version. E.g. chapter 25 ... why do you not use the word 'follows' in your last line of the chapter? Man follows the Earth Earth follows Heaven Heaven follows the Dao Dao is what is natural The character 法 'follows' occurs in all four lines but you treat the last differently? I hope that you will explain why in the 'chapter 25' thread.

Hi flowing hands Yes, I understand you, the members here are of mixed quality and I am myself indeed the proof of mixed I post instead the link to your Dao De Jhing by Lao Shi / PDF 336kb so people have something else to read

AHA ... You're too betting on horseraces ... welcome

Search... and you'll find no nothing! Yin is the shady side of a mountain and Yang the sunny side of a mountain. The mountain itself is neither Yin nor Yang ... that'll say Yin and Yang aren't objective phenomena. Yin, the shady side of a mountain, is in the morning, when seen from south, to your left. Yin, the shady side of a mountain, is in the morning, when seen from north, to your right. That'll say left and right, subjective phenomena, aren't Yin and Yang. That's why an ironical Laozi wrote: Everyone carries Yin on the back and holds Yang in arms. because what can be carried on the back but not be hold in arms? because what can be hold in arms but not be carried on the back?

萬世之後而一遇大聖知其解者 是旦暮遇之也 Victor Mair: but after myriad generations there may appear a great sage who will know how to explain it and he will appear as though overnight. James Legge: but if after ten thousand ages we once meet with a great sage who knows how to explain them, it will be as if we met him (unexpectedly) some morning or evening. Burton Watson: Yet, after ten thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared with astonishing speed. 'A.C. Graham': If one sage in ten thousand generations understand it, it's like encountering him in the space of a day. My own translation: You will once within ten thousand generations meet with the interpreter of the great holy knowledge, when dawn will meet with sunset. That'll say never! The great holy knowledge can't be interpreted: Tao that can be told is not Tao. Page 1 line 1 in Tao Teh Ching and Zhuangzi explains why, philosophically, in the following passage. I've earlier in this thread written, that the following passage was misplaced by the editor, but I was wrong.

Victor Mair: Both Confucius and you are dreaming, and I too am dreaming when I say that you are dreaming . This sort of language may be called enigmatic. James Legge: He and you are both dreaming. I who say that you are dreaming am dreaming myself. These words seem very strange. Burton Watson: Confucius and you are both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too. Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. 'A.C. Graham': Qiu and you, you're just dreams, and my telling you that you're a dream is a dream too. This teaching he told you about is called a conundrum. 丘也 與女皆夢也 予謂女夢 亦夢也 是其言也 其名為弔詭 All translators have problems with 弔詭 because they misread the socalled 'Ji Li story' as one about a bride weeping on her way to her wedding. The term makes no problem to me because I read the story as about a young man and heir weeping crocodile tears when mourning the deceased Duke Xian. The dictionary definitions of the two characters: 弔 condole, mourn, pity 詭 deceive, cheat, defraud That'll say the end term of these two lines relates directly to the little story!

Hi flowing hands Please post the prayer in english and chinese here. I can translate it into danish, swedish and german. Other members can translate it into their languages.

Laozi's list in his chapter 42 is the shortest available: 萬物負陰而抱陽 Everyone carries yin on the back and holds yang in arms. (his list was made before the perambulator was invented)

Is Zhuangzi about what's ordinary common sense? No, the subject is one's 'free will' expressed one's 'primary-made voluntarily life'! I read Zhuangzi's pointe of view as a combination of the last two stories. I read them in the same way as Laozi's formula: A is to B like C is to D : The penumbra is to the umbra like Zhuang Zhou is to his dreams. It's in the last line called: 物化 the transformation of contents My own approach to the term 'the transformation of contents' is that of Niels Bohr's. He claimed, that light was waves or particles depending on the measure method used. Either or ... but never both at the same time due to the complementarity principle.

INTJ 56-50-38-11

The lines just after the little story are: 予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蘄生乎 夢飲酒者 旦而哭泣 夢哭泣者 旦而田獵 How do I know that the dead doesn't regret his primary-made voluntarily life? He who dreamt of drinking wine had mournful weeping in the morning. He who dreamt of mournful weeping went off to hunt in the morning. The first dreamer was Ji's son, who had a party instead of mourning the deceased Duke Xian of Jin. So the mourning he had was the mourning of his own assassination in the morning. The second dreamer was the lawful but exiled heir, who wanted to mourn his father. Prince Yi Wu ascended later on the throne of Jin and became Duke Hui of Jin. I've translated the term 其始之蘄生 as 'his primary-made voluntarily life'. That's in my opinion the important subject of this passage: one's free will? His mother had no choice, when she and her sister as war spoils were made concubines, but did the fifteen years old young man have a choice? If, then he choose to enjoy the good food and the concubines in the deceased rulers bed

I used Burton Watson's translation to show, that the cartoon interpretation is wrong! There's absolutely no connection between the three questions and a weeping bride 麗之姬 Ji of Li (Ji 姬 is the war spoil concubine Li Ji's son) 艾封人之子也 son of the border warden to Ai (Ai 艾 is a plant that'll say he had no real title) 晉國之始得之也 primary-made heir of the Jin state (he had three older halfbrothers) 涕泣沾襟 wept crocodile tears (that's how the term is used in other ancient texts) 及其至於王所 until his arrival at the royal court (Jin was ruled by Dukes and Marquises) Did Li's fifteen years old son mourn (weep) for three years when Duke Xian of Jin died? The young man was assassinated only one month later! The traditional readings (and translations) of this Zhuangzi passage is either wrong or the story is totally misplaced by the original editor.

I prefer to use Legge's online translation this way: If the stalks result in hexagram 30 line 1 (the first NINE) then click at the little blue bottom to the right and each character appears vertical explained A vertical character can be further examined by clicking on the character e.g. 履 (footwear) and then go to the bottom and click on Pre-Qin and Han texts Then occurs a list of texts containing 履 (footwear) used e.g. 3 times in the analects (it's very inspiring to read the characters used in other connections) There's also on the site a dictionary to copypast one or more characters into. And the suplement is to copypast the character into Sears etymology page There's a lot of symbolic in each character that is impossible to translate into english language. Using the above translation tools makes it possible to read a single line in chinese one's own way!

The passage without the story looks like this in Burton Watson's translation: "How do I know that loving life is not a delusion? How do I know that in hating death I am not like a man who, having left home in his youth, has forgotten the way back? How do I know that the dead do not wonder why they ever longed for life?" Three 'How do I know' questions about life and death. The subject of the second is about a man, having left home in his youth, which confirms the translation 'son of Ai the border warden'. There's no nothing in the three questions indicating 'a woman on the way to her wedding'

Your 'modern interpretation' doesn't fit well with the official story of Li Ji 姬 was the ancestral name of her husband the deceased Duke Xian of Jin. Her name was 麓姬 Li Ji while he lived and 麓之姬 when she became widowed. The phrase 晉國之始 'the first of the Jin state' must therefore refer to the heir! Ji Li had the legal heir killed before Duke Xian died and her own 15 years old son Xiqi installed as new ruler. She was thus de facto 'the King' of Jin one month until Xiqi was assassinated. Maybe that's the pointe? But I do still not understand 'son of the border-warden Ai' The only Ai that could fit in is 'Duke Ai the lamentable' (494-467 BC) known from Zuo Zhuan. One of Ai's stories looks like the beginning of Nie Que and Wang Ni dialogue: He sent Ran You to ask Zhong Ni (Confucius) about the subject. He replied that he did not know about it. Three times he gave this answer to inquiries pressed upon him. Nie Que asked Wang Ni, saying, 'Do you know, Sir, what all creatures agree in approving and affirming?' 'How should I know it?' was the reply. 'Do you know what it is that you do not know?' asked the other again, and he got the same reply. He asked a third time, 'Then are all creatures thus without knowledge?' and Wang Ni answered as before,

Oh ... there's too a sad sad story about Lao Dan's funeral Lao Dan is known from his assistence to Cunfucius concerning funerals I wonder who the condolent 秦失 Qin Shi was