lienshan

hi Marplehead I do understand, that it's almost impossible for a taoist to swallow that Laozi in his parable compared Tao to the 'blank space' between the verb and the noun of an independent clause Thanks for a nice conversation

Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. Say Dao is an independent clause. An independent clause is a clause that can stand by itself. An independent clause consist of a verb + a noun. That, which serves to make the verb and the noun an independent clause, is the _ between the verb and the noun; e.g. Say_Dao _ is not nonexistence, because SayDao is not an independent clause. And Say_Dao is speakable unindependent, because how to pronounce _ ? _ becomes dependent of the verb and the noun when pronounced 'blank space'! The theoretical question is ofcourse, whether wu_wei is an independent clause? Say constant Tao = SayconstantTao Say_constant_Tao = Say constant Tao because _ is not = constant

hi Marplehead My translation of Dao De Jing Chapter 1 is now finished The three lines in italic are 'negative', that'll say not expressing Laozi's own philosophy! Line 1 demonstrates the foolishness of nicknaming Dao. Line 5 shows the consequence of Mozi's 'Heavens Intention' nonsens. Line 9 is nicknaming the various Schools of Thought at the Ji Gate in Jixia. The other six lines are expressing Laozi's own philosophy and points of view: Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is entitled heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers. Former heavenly nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different compliments. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate of the darkness of the twilights and the mystery of the many. The two vertical lines of the first and the last character of each line are: Say term nonexistence existent Former selfish Now identical twilights. Dao clause Starting point mothers beauty manifestation compliment exits gate. 'Dao clause' means that all the following words must form an 'independent clause'

Evening dusk means dark to the east and darkening to the west to me. Morning dusk means dark to the west and brightening to the east to me. Line 8: Identical (dusk) means to arrive at night at the end of darkening. My doublecheck told me, that my line 5 should be like this: Former heavenly nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty. gu means both thus/consequently and former/old 'selfless' is not like 'nonexistence' a noun, and a noun in the specific position links to the grammar rule expressed in line 2, because 'nonexisting' is banned, because it would make the 'can be a title' of line 5 to be an independent clause. The corresponding vertical line is then much more clearcut: Say term nonexistence existent Former selfish now identical dusky.

I'm only doublechecking my translation. Laozi was a proffesionel diviner at the Zhou court, so it's obvious, that he 'watermarked' his text by means of divinatory numerology, in order to prevent falsifications and to help readers with knowledge of divination. He did too 'watermark' his text by means of the first and the last word of each line. These two 'inplicit' sentences of nine words are not first and last in an english translation: Say, speakable unindependent, Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is entitled heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers. Thus: heavenly selfless desires by means of looking at their beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words. Identical means to arrive at night at the end of darkening. The gate of dusky dawn and the mystery of the many. Say term nonexistence existent Thus selfish now Identical dusky Dao clause starting point mothers beauty manifestation words end gate The first line says, that if nonexistence is existing, then can both evening dusk and morning dusk be present at the same time. The second line says, that if Dao is the starting point of the mothers, then is the manifestation of their beauty the gate to death. Try check your Henricks' translation as I check my translation. Does he express Laozi's Intention or does he express Henrick's Intention? Many chapter 1 translators break the last two lines like this: tong wei zhi xuan xuan zhi you xuan zhong miao zhi men Which change the meaning of the two 'inplicit' sentences into: Say term nonexistence existent Thus selfish now Identical multitude Dao clause starting point mothers beauty manifestation words dark gate

Say, speakable unindependent, Dao ................................................ 2 words The term can be a title isn't an independent clause ............................ | The starting point of nonexistence is entitled heavenly ....................... 3 fa Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers .............. | Thus: heavenly selfless desires by means of looking at their beauty ... 2 readings A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation ........... | Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words ......... 3 fa Identical means to arrive at night at the end of darkening .................... | The gate of dusky dawn and the mystery of the many ........................ 2 meanings My numerologic logic is based on this Shuo Gua (8th wing) quote: The number 3 was assigned to Heaven, the number 2 to Earth, and from these come the numbers. My numerologic reading is: There are 2 times 3 fa in the DDJ chapter 1, so fa must be earthly. There are 3 times 2 words/readings/meanings, so words/readings/meanings are heavenly. Heaven's Will or Heaven's Intention is consequently Man's Will or Man's Intention Laozi wrote chapter 1 in nine vertical columns of characters; I see this image: The 2 times 3 fa are from that point of view like two solid (true) mountains. The 3 times 2 words/readings/meanings are from that point of view like three flowing mountain streams. The extra character of the line in the middle makes it change into a river flowing towards the sea.

Thanks for your selfless assistence Say, speakable unindependent, Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is entitled heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers. Thus: heavenly selfless desires by means of looking at their beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words. Identical means to arrive at night at the end of darkening. The gate of dusky dawn and the mystery of the many. Thus: heavenly selfless desires by means of looking at their beauty. I hope that you can confirm, that the 5th line is a changing line? That'll say, the word 'desires' is meant to be read both as a noun and as a verb. 'by means of' is synonymous with the mohist 'model/tool' fa. 'Heavens Will' or 'Heavens Intention' is the third of Mozi's three fa. Observation is his second fa. Confirmed by sagekings is his first fa. Laozi does too comment on Mozi's three fa in the four last lines of chapter 25. Here's another quote from Mozi's Book 7: tian zhi yi bu yu da guo zhi gong xiao guo Heaven its intention doesn't desire a big state goes to attack a small state.

The 5th line is the most important line, according to your walk the middle way It's too the most important line, according to my numerology 6-6-6-6-7-6-6-6-6 7 is a steady line and all 6s are changing lines, according to the Zhouyi: Water becomes Heaven, when all the 6s have changed. 7 is a changing line and all the 6s are steady lines, according to the Guicang: 7 is what remains, when Water becomes Heaven. Water becomes Heaven means to evaporate, to disappear. Line 5: Thus is the desire of heavenly-nonexistence caused by observing their mystery The term in bold might be the same as the mohist term The Intention of Heaven (tian yi) or The Desire of Heaven (tian yi) yi has the meanings: a thought / an idea / intention / expectations / wish / desire http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=1072&if=en a quote from this book 7: 'When I do what Heaven desires, Heaven will also do what I desire.' Line 5: Thus is The Heavenly Desire caused by observing their beauty Laozi's inplicit question is now: has heavenly-nonexistence either blue or brown eyes ??

Say Dao The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is titled heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers. Thus is the desire of heavenly-nonexistence caused by observing their mystery. Selfish desires comes from studying its manifestation. Both sides of now are same appearance and different words. The united meaning is to arrive at dark and the exit of darkening. The gate of dawn is the multitude beauty of darkness. Line 3 says, that the starting point of nonexistence (wu) is the word 'heavenly'. Thus is the term heng-wu meant to be read as one word meaning heavenly-nonexistence. Laozi's target is maybe this: http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=1073&if=en I read 'their' as referring to 'mothers' and 'its' as referring to 'mystery'. The inplicit question is maybe: who is the mother of the mothers? I read heng-you as corresponding to the Guicang hexagram 32 name 'independent I = selfish'.

6 characters: dao ke dao fei heng dao 6 characters: ming ke ming fei heng ming 6 characters: wu ming tian di zhi shi 6 characters: you ming wan wu zhi mu 7 characters: gu heng-wu yu yi guan qi miao 6 characters: heng-you yu yi guan qi jiao 6 characters: ci-liang-zhe tong chu er yi ming 6 characters: tong wei zhi xuan xuan zhi 6 characters: you xuan zhong miao zhi men There are according to my counting three samples of more characters that Laozi treats as one character. ci-liang-zhe means 'both sides of now' meant to be read as one single word. heng-wu and heng-you are too new words invented by Laozi this way: The name of the Zhouyi hexagram 32 is heng meaning independent. The name of the Guicang hexagram 32 is heng wo meaning selfish (independent I) Laozi combined heng+wu and heng+you expressing two new variations of 'selfish': heng+you = selfish existing = I can be selfish = selfish as a personal matter heng+wu = selfish nonexisting = I cannot be selfishness = selfish in general I read his heng-wu selfishness as that what we all share as human beings to survive, and to live a satisfying socalled normal and ordinary life, knowing when enough is enough. I read his heng+you selfish as the wish of more, not knowing when enough is enough. The desire of selfishness might be understood as the desire of knowing when enough is enough? I don't think that neither selfless nor unselfish fit with knowing when enough is enough.

Line 3: The starting point of nonexistence (wu) is named heavenly The heavenly Mystery ??? The litteral translation is: selfishness desire/desires because to observe its/their beauty/mystery My pick relates to the mothers in line 4. Laozi was like I am a man. I think that he too had a beautiful wife, that he loved and desired is zi ran. Desireless? Then he must have had a really ugly wife The litteral translation is: Selfish desires/desire comes from studying their/its manifestation. My pick relates to the existent (the child) in line 4. Laozi lived at a time, where common people were owned. A newborn child meant the same to the chinese nobility, as a newborn calf means to nowadays farmers. Laozi was against the slavery, but a man in his high position had to 'tiptoe' such a point of view. But ofcourse, selfish desire grows the more money you study on the table just in front of you. I'm a diviner ... a diviner of horseraces

I return to line 5 in my next posting, because I have something to say about the Water Image text of the Zhouyi. Richard Wilhelm (and the confucians) read the text like this: shui jian zhi xi kan jun zi yi chang de xing xi jiao shi Water flows on uninterruptedly and reaches its foal: The image of the Abysmal repeated. Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue And carries on the business of teaching. I read the text like this: shui jian zhi xi kan jun zi yi chang de xing xi jiao shi Water flowing arrives at learning. Danger king people commanding. Constant De exits learning. Teach serving! (chang de corresponds to chang dao in the received chapter 1 versions of Dao De Jing) That's why I think, that the number of characters in each line is important. The numbers 6 and 9 represents the changing lines in the Zhouyi book of change, but an histographer should be able to divine by three divination methods, and the many lines of 6 characters indicate, that 7 and 8 were changing lines in the method he used to construct chapter 1. That'll say: 6 - 7 - 6 means trigram Water changing to trigram Earth.

Here is a little more: 6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4 6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2 6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 6 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 7 characters: gu4 heng2-wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 6 characters: heng2-you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2 6 - 7 - 6 (even - odd - even) corresponds to trigram Water (broken line - whole line - broken line) The first line of the trigram Water Image text is shui jian zhi xi kan meaning: water flows reaching repeatedly the pit water flows reaching the repeated pit Both meanings are seemingly correct? It's the same story with the line 1 of chapter 1: Say speakable unindependent Dao Say unspeakable independent Dao That's what's today is called a false dilemma! The solution is quite simple to cancell the contradictionairy term: water flows into the pit Say Dao The term can be a title isn't the independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers. Thus is the desire of selfishness caused by observing their beauty. Selfish desires comes from studying its manifestation. Both sides of now are same appearance and different words. The united meaning is to arrive at dark and the exit of darkening. The gate of dawn is the multitude mystery of darkness.

Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't the independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly. Naming the existent is a matter for the tenthousand mothers by accident. Eternal desireless is because observing its beauty. Unchanging desireful is from studying their materialisation. Both sides of now are same appearance and different words. The united meaning is to arrive at dark and the exit of darkening. The gate of dawn is the multitude mystery of darkness. I think that I found 'the missing link' of the first lines Line 2 tells, that the independent clause (verb + subject) isn't 'can be a title'. The title of Dao in line 1 is the paradoxal 'speakable unindependent'. The independent clause must thus be the first dao and the last dao of the line. dao means Dao but can too mean way, path, method, to say, to speak That'll say, that the first dao is the verb say and the second dao is the subject Dao. Line 3 tells, that the starting point of nonexistence is the title heavenly. Dao has another title and is thus not nonexistence. The title 'speakable unindependent' contains a doublenegative. It might be the same as the title 'unspeakable independent'?

Go to line 3: wu ming tian di zhi shi The characters in bold are the independent clause of the line. The character di means Earth or is an auxillary character creating adverbs (-ly): The independent clause can thus be translated: named heavenly The character zhi can be an auxillary character cancelling the independence of a clause. Line 3 can thus be translated: nonexistence, named heavenly, the starting point ... that'll say: The starting point of nonexistence is named heavenly. I read this as expressing Laozi's view at the third fa: Heaven's Will. The traditional translation of line 3 is like this: The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth The difference between the two translations is in my opinion, that the latter could have been written by any 1th year student, while the first only can have been written by a high educated man, who guides his reader by mentioning the independent clause in line 2, so that a reader has a chance to read zhi in the way it is meant to be read.

I read the 7th line as an inplicit readers guide: 'same words have different meanings' That'll say: the three Tao characters of line 1 must be read as three different characters. That'll say: all repeated characters in the chapter 1 must be read as different characters. An example: dao ke dao fei heng dao ming ke ming fei heng ming A way wayable is unindependent Dao The sentence can be the word isn't a clause of independence The repeated characters are: dao = a way, way(able), Dao ke = -able, can be fei = -un, isn't heng = (un)independent, independence ming = sentence, word, clause The term 'heng ming' meaning a clause of independence is fa, because the grammar rule of independent clauses is confirmed by sage kings. That's why 'fei' means 'isn't' in line 2. Laozi uses 'fei' as the double negative 'unindependence' to create the meaning: A way wayable isn't independent Dao Eternal is a positive word and 'fei' can't thus be used in the same way as independent. But unchanging is a negative word and can be used in the same way in line 1: A way wayable is ununchanging Dao The sentence can be the word isn't the book of change My overall view at the nine lines is: line 1: a way + wayable = both sides of independent Dao line 2: ( + ) = both sides of an independent clause line 3: Heaven + Earth = both sides of the starting point line 4: 10.000 + matter = both sides of existence line 5: object + subject = both sides of nondesire line 6: subject + object = both sides of desire line 7: before + after = both sides of now line 8: evening dusk + morning dusk = both sides of dark line 9: multitude + subtlety = both sides of a gate

dao ke dao fei heng dao ming ke ming fei heng ming ke means 'can be' or makes adverbs (-able) fei means 'isn't' or is a negative (un-, contradiction, paradox) An example from ancient chinese philosophy: bai ma fei ma ke hu (white horse isn't horse can be ?) The subject after 'fei' must be somthing that is according to one of the three models (fa): 1. Something confirmed by former sage kings. 2. Something real (a matter of fact) 3. Something benefitting (the Will of Heaven) The term 'heng dao' isn't a model (fa) and translating fei before heng dao as isn't is wrong. No contemporary reader would read fei as isn't, and that's why fei means 'a negative'. fei occur twice and must thus be read/translated different: contradiction, paradox or un-.

The middle roads of the two texts are in bold: 4 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 6 characters: heng2 dao4 ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 8 characters: heng2 ming2 wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4 7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 8 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4 6 characters: zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2 4 characters: zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2 6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4 6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2 6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4 7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2 6 - 7 - 6 - 6 - 7 - 6 (even - odd - even - even - odd - even) corresponds to hexagram 29 (broken - whole - broken - broken - whole - broken) in ancient chinese numerology; that's the way hexagrams were previously shown. The Image-text of hexagram 29 is according to Richard Wilhelm: Water flows on uninterruptedly and reaches its goal: The image of the Abysmal repeated. Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue And carries on the business of teaching.

Hi Marblehead Regretfully, I do not know the subtle nuances of english so I am at the mercy of those who do. Please help me putting my two Chapter 1 translations into 'perfect english': A way can be Dao is a paradox. Independent Dao and a word namable is a contradiction. Independence, called the nonexistent name Heaven and Earth, is the starting point. Existence is named a matter of tenthousand mothers by accident. Selfish desires is from studying their beautifulness. The desire of selfishness is because observing its manifestation. Both sides of now is the same appearance and together meaning of different words. Arriving at the darkening dusk goes to the dark of darkness. The gate of multitude mystery. Dao daoable is the contradiction the way of independence. Called can be a name is the paradox an independent word. Nonexistence named is the starting point of Heaven and Earth. Nameing the existing is the matter for tenthousand mothers by accident. Eternal desireless is because observing its mystery. Unchanging desireful is from studying their manifestation. Both sides of now is a together appearance and different words. The same meaning is to arrive at dark and the exiting of darkening. Dusk, the multitude beautifulness of darkness, is the gate. The corresponding two ways of breaking the original chinese text into sentences are: 4 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 6 characters: heng2 dao4 ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 8 characters: heng2 ming2 wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4 7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 8 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4 6 characters: zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2 4 characters: zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2 6 characters: dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4 6 characters: ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2 6 characters: wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 7 characters: you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 gu4 7 characters: heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 7 characters: heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 6 characters: ci3-liang3-zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 6 characters: tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 6 characters: you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2 The four columns of characters in bold (the first and the last character of each sentence) make these four sentences: Is a way independent independence and is existence selfish selfishness? Now both sides are arriving at a multitude! Is a paradox the beginning of contradiction? Accident is the manifestation of beautifulness pronounced the gate of dark! Is Dao called nonexistence existing? Independence and independent are now both sides of the same dusk! Is a way the word a starting point? Accident is the manifestation of mystery named the gate of exiting!

The Guodian Tao Te Ching is "one very true and excellent one!" because: This 300 BC Tao Te Ching version is the only one known written in the original bronze characters. All the other Tao Te Ching versions are in fact translations into "modern" chinese characters and are thus by logic edited Han-dynasty time interpretations.

The original characters were: Dao ke Dao Fei Heng Dao Heng became a taboo-character in 196 BCE and was replaced by the character Chang. The pictograph Heng is the name of the I Ching hexagram 32. I read the pictograph Heng as showing a heart and a boat between two riverbanks, symbolizing the beating of a heart. That'll say neither "lasting" nor "eternal", but "naturally" or "self so"; the opposite of being managed or controlled. That'll say synonymous with the phrase Zi Ran.

To have De To have De is to do away with to have no De

Dao breeds, De raises, The content appears, The container completes. The precise take is: Everybody drinks Dao and eats De! A wine container of Dao? A food container of De? These cannot be ordered, nevertheless constant available! Dao breeds, raises, grows, matures, erects, fertilizes, impregnates! The breeding of sloping ? And so no acting of having? And so no growing of serving? And so is no ruling indeed the De of the darkness of the womb!