lienshan

The goal determining is tactics; your strategical position is a choice! high or low? If you choose high then you can terminate wisdom and expertise because: "Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind." But can you too terminate wisdom and expertise if you choose low?

I've found it: Chapter 19 preceeds in the Guodian Tao Teh Ching chapter 66: That which allows the rivers and seas to serve as kings of the small valley streams, Is their ability to be below the small valley streams. Therefore, they can serve as the kings of the small valley streams. Shen Dao's strategical position is above and Lao Tzu's is below.

Shen Dao's arguement was: "Though one's bow is weak, if one shots from a great high, one's arrow will fly swifter than the wind." That'll say, one's strategic position (shi) is superior to knowledge, trustworthy, expertice and advantageousness. If Lao Zhu is quoting Shen Dao, then it's because he doesn't agree, and Lao Zhu's chapter 19 must therefore be read/translated as argueing against Shen Dao's "strategic position" slogans. If Shen Dao is quoting Lao Tsu, then is "Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness, Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness" explained with arguements in chapter 19 or elsewhere? But I can't find any explanation or arguement? Where's the logic? "Terminate expertice" e.g. how do you explain to the many practioneers of Tai Chi and other techniques promoted and practiced by many users on The Tao Bums, that they according to Lao Tzu shall "Terminate expertice"?

If these four paroles are not Shen Dao quotes: Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness. Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness. But Lao Zhu's own paroles written before 479 BC, then please explain their wisdom to me? I'm serious! They do not match other chapters?

Henricks is right. Here is my explanation why: Chapter 19 was one of Lao Tzu's first chapters written when he was very young! He commentated six Shen Dao slogans (in bold in my Guodian translation). Later on, when Lao Tzu had grown mature and developed his brilliant insight, then he wrote a new commentary (the chapters 17-18) to his own chapter 19: 17 Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior. Greatest when giving personal praise to him. Greater when being afraid of him. Great when insulting him. Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust? The fulfilled success of a completed task, the superlative meaning of the phrase, is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I". 18 Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao resulting in benevolence and righteousness. The six relations are not harmonious resulting in filial piety and compassion. The state matters are muddled and confused resulting in appropriate officials. 19 Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness. And the people will benefit a hundredfold? Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness. And there will be no robbers and thieves? Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity. And the people will revert to youngest children? Suppose that forethought lacks? One orders those three statements. One being in a position subordinate to. To watch the unadulted protects simplicity. To diminish privacy lessens wishful thinking. ........................................................................ The Chapter 17 refers to the six Shen Dao slogans of chapter 19 by: "Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust?" These lines in chapter 18: "The six relations are not harmonious resulting in filial piety and compassion." refer to these lines in chapter 19: "Terminate hypocricy, abandon duplicity. And the people will revert to youngest children?" These lines in chapter 18: "The state matters are muddled and confused resulting in appropriate officials." refer to these lines in chapter 19: "Terminate expertice, abandon advantageousness. And there will be no robbers and thieves?" These lines in chapter 18: "Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao resulting in benevolence and righteousness." refer to these lines in chapter 19: "Terminate wisdom, abandon worthiness. And the people will benefit a hundredfold?" Shen Dao had more slogans e.g. "Great Dao" and "Great One". Shen Dao belonged to the Huang-Lao school and is today named a legalist.

故 大 道 廢 therefore great dao belittling "therefore greatest" due to the above "the superlative meaning of the phrase" Henricks is wrong. His "last two lines" is half of one long last line: (亓 貴 言) 也 成 事 遂 功 而 (百 姓 曰 我) 自 然 也 I've inserted () to show the two noun clauses marked by the two 也 characters. The core of this sentence construction is 而 ... closed by 然 That's how to refer to what have been said. I will spare you for the detailes, but Zhuangzi used the same sentence construction in his "fish dialogue". I was inspired by ChiDragons knowledgeable scholar

Inferior scholars have a great -er -est superior. Greatest when giving personal praise to him. Greater when being afraid of him. Great when insulting him. Trust lacks; resulting in a scheme of distrust? The fulfilled success of a completed task, the superlative meaning of the phrase, is like "myself" being added whenever common people say "I". Therefore is even Greatest a belittling of Dao resulting in benevolence and righteousness. The six relations are not harmonious resulting in filial piety and compassion. The state matters are muddled and confused resulting in appropriate officials. I've placed the Guodian chapter 18 downunder

1 大 上 下 知 又 之 大 上 in the first line is an exposed object (大 上 exposed is repeated by 之) 大 上 下 知 又 之 is thus equivalent to 下 知 又 大 上 and the verb is 又 because the 之 is after the verb by regular rule early/middle warring states. Hi Marblehead. Henricks treats 知 "know" as the verb, but 又 "have" is the verb due to classical chinese grammar! His english is surely better than mine, but his first four lines are translated "wrong" Henricks follows the wellknown versions and graduates after positions. Those one step down are praised. Those another step down are feared. Those yet another step down are insulted. But the Guodian version graduates the character 大 (great, greater, greatest) Greatest (fantastic) is praised. Greater (size) is feared Great (fat) is insulted The pointe of the Guodian chapter 17 is that the term 大道 is to avoid, because 大道 means both great Dao, greater Dao and greatest Dao

Or understand, that uniqueness makes an understanding based on a comparation impossible?

The Guodian Laozi chapter 17 大 上 下 知 又 之 亓 即 親 譽 之 亓 即 畏 之 亓 即 侮 之 信 不 足 安 又 不 信 猷 乎 亓 貴 言 也 成 事 遂 功 而 百 姓 曰 我 自 然 也 An inferior wisdom has a great superior. Its next to gives personal praise to it. Its next to is afraid of it. Its next to insults it. Trust lacks; how is distrusting it planned? The achieved merit of a completed work is its precious meaning, yet do common people say: I am myself so! Attributed to Muhammad "I am the greatest" Ali Reading tips: The three "it" 之 means "superior". The three "its next to" 亓 即 means "great" (大 is next to 上) Line six relates to "personal praise" in line two. The last line tells, that "great superior" isn't "zi ran", because common people too are great!

本命分於道 Root names distinguished from Tao: 謂之命形於一 Called its name: Formed from One. 謂之性化於陰陽象形而發 Called its characteristics: Changed from the images of yin and yang, formed and issued. 謂之生化窮數盡 Called its birth: Changed to the worn out of poor quality. 謂之死故命者性之終也 Called its death: The former name was that which naturally went to an end! 則必有終矣 The method surely has an end!!! The text is included in Da Dai Jili, not included in the confucian canon, and is according to scholarly research written by Xunzi (312-230 BC).

Why not discuss it here, adept? The first Xunzi text seems to be a commentary to Tao Te Ching chapter 42, because it's the only chapter that contains the characters 陰 yin and 陽 yang ... and too the character 一 one, and too the character 生 birth ... all central characters in both chapter 42 and the Xunzi text. If so, then Xunzi text is the first ever known commentary to Tao Te Ching, because he lived 312-230 BC. The first lines of chapter 42 are these very difficult to understand/translate: 道生一 Tao gave birth to one 一生二 one gave birth to two 二生三 two gave birth to three 三生萬物 three gave birth to the tenthousand things The Xunzi text in my own (poor) translation: 謂之命形於一 Called its name: Formed from One

I was myself surprized by reading, how influencal yin and yang was on taoism in late warring states time. Yin and yang are not mentioned that often in t.ex. Tao Te Ching. Xunzi's own point of view seems too influenced by yin and yang, when reading another of his lexical texts in Da Dai Jili with the subject earth: 易本命凡 easy - root - name - summary 地 earth 東西為緯 east - west - is - woof (horisontal wowen) 南北為經 south - north - is - books (vertical reading direction) 山為積德 mountain - is - accumulate - virtue (te) 川為積刑 stream - is - accumulate - punishment 高者為生 high - that which - is - life 下者為死 below - that which - is - death 邱陵發牡 hill - grave - issue - male 谿谷為牝 gorge - valley - is - female

There's an alternative way of reading: To say born I I gives birth to II The character "dao" have more meanings e.g. "to say". The character "I" means "one" (the number). The character "II" means two (the number) but does too symbolize "Earth" according to Shuo Gua. The character "III" means three (the number) but does too symbolize "Heaven" according to Shuo Gua. The opening lines of that chapter look like a typical Lao Dan fingerprint on the text. His main aversion was the "Son of Heaven" nonsense, and his secondary aversion was the double-phrase "Great Dao". And the Lao Dan sentences consist of 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 characters, so that they correspond to a hexagram line; odd numbered correspond to "whole lines" and even numbered correspond to "broken lines".

There's no right or wrong in this, because it depends of how one reads these two lines: Heaven under joyful advances and no hate because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below 2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder 9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain 4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh Does the trigram marsh symbolize the moon? The chinese character means "wedge". The trigram nickname is "joyful". The wedging phases before and after a newmoon do look like a big but that isn't serious enough

I try put the subject of this tread into other words: The Qin diviner Lao Dan (worked in the years 384-362 BC) added some ten verses to Dao De Jing. These verses are all anti-"mandate of heaven"! The philosophy of Dao De Jing is, that everything is natural, so to get rid of the unnatural "son of heaven" was the headline of Lao Dan's policy. Such a policy was ofcourse lese-majesty and the penality was execution. That's why his verses are "coded": The number of characters in each sentence correspond to a hexagram line; a hexagram line was expressed by numbers before 256 BC. The Received Dao De Jing is an edition, so the number of characters in each sentence is not original. The Guodian version was buried 312 BC and the number of characters in each line seems to be original? The chinese (read communist) scholars have not been able to explain the seven ye3 (yes) characters of this chapter 66 ... they are neither diviners nor daoists, so they simply do not know how to read the chapter 66 text. The Zhou point of view was, that the earth was flat and a new sun occurred every morning, like a new "son of heaven" was born, every time the former "son of heaven" died. So proving, that the earth is round and that it's the same sun occurring every morning, was the ultimate arguement against the "mandate of heaven" nonsense. The moon is in front and the sun behind during a sun eclipse ... that's how I read the Guodian verse 66 ... but in order to read the text this way, then I have to "decode" the number of characters in the six lines into the hexagram 55 FENG, which is about a sun eclipse. And using the magic square result in 55 FENG ... so if I read the text "correct" ... then Lao Dan and his readers knew the magic square 384-362 BC

The earliest evidence of the Lo Shu diagram is about 900 AD according to modern chinese studies. There are no earlier textual or archaeological founds confirming the antiquety of the Lo Shu diagram. My source is thus these two quotes from Shuo Gua (the 8th Wing): "To heaven they assigned the number three, to earth the number two, and form these they computed the numbers." "therefore too backwards mowing numbers." The above quotes result by logic in the following trigram-counting rules: The bottom line counts either 4, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line The middle line counts either 2, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 3 (heaven/uneven) ::: 200=2 III 300=3 :I: 220=4 I:I 320=5 ::I 204=6 II: 304=7 :II 224=8 I:: 324=9 Counting reversed with an uneven number first change the counting rules into: The bottom line counts either 4, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line The middle line counts either 2, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 1 (heaven/uneven) ::: 422=8 III 421=7 :I: 204=6 I:I 104=5 ::I 220=4 II: 120=3 :II 200=2 I:: 100=1 The first oracle was named Lian Shan (Mountains standing together) and that explains the two mountains: 2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder 9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain 4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh Some commentaries to the trigram names in the middle column: "wind" consists of a man standing on something; a stand, a table, or? I do not yet understand the meaning. There are several characters with the man besides something or under something, all indicating an action. "fire" consist of two characters, a net and a bird. I read it as meaning gravity. That which seperates (fly) and that which connects (catch). Corresponding to the trigram nickname: The Clinging. "heaven" consists of three characters, in the middle a sun, above a hanging plant and below a character, that means "not breathing". I read all three as meaning "drought". The soil dryes and becomes solid; firm. That'll say not like fifix's "this is the key to the gate of heaven"

I read somewhere, that Tao gave birth to One, so it's maybe a little more complicated? I have a little correction to my magic square: 2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder 9 mountain .... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain 4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh Some commentaires to the trigram names to the left and their chinese outlook: "earth" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "flowing" "earth" has a substitute character JII meaning streams, that was carved in the stone Yi Jing. That's why I read "earth" as meaning "mountain valley streams". Dry in summer and flowing in spring. "water" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "exhaling". I read the meaning as both a pit and the content. Both the bottom and the water; all in all a river. The left side of my magic square does thus correspond to the subject of Dao De Jing chapter 66

I start with: http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=25003&if=en I copy and paste the chinese characters into: http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en Or copy and paste single characters into: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/EtymologyHome.aspx And then I translate the text

Dao De Jing chapter 59 is probably the most mistranslated of all chapters. The last line of this chapter is one of the most important of all lines. Heaven's office and the Man's administration are not identical. Because: is it stingy? Only the Man is stingy! Is correct speaking "Exellent Good Morning"? Use the correct "Good Morning"! Only Righteousness, the accumulated virtue of magnitude, accumulates muchness. Only the Arrogance, not the nonexisting superiority, isn't nonexistent. No one knows these extremes not knowing their narrowness. Valid is: "the existing state of the existing states is their mother". Valid is: "for a long time correct spoken deeply rooted". Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest. Commentaries: "the Man" is the ruler of the Zhou state; the socalled "the Son of Heaven". "the existing state" is the Zhou state; previously "the Zhou dynasty". <== 6 : zhi4 ren2 shi4 tian1 mo4 ruo4 <== 6 : se4 fu2 wei2 se4 shi4 yi3 <== 7 : zao3 shi4 yi3 zao3 bei4 shi4 wei4 <== 7 : zhong4 ji1 de2 zhong4 ji1 de2 ze2 <== 7 : wu2 bu4 ke4 wu2 bu4 ke4 ze2 8 ==> : mo4 zhi1 qi2 ji2 mo4 zhi1 qi2 ji2 8 ==> : ke3 yi3 you3 yu4 you3 yu4 zhi1 mu3 8 ==> : ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu4 shi4 wei4 shen1 gen1 <== 8 : gu4 di3 chang2 sheng1 jiu4 shi4 zhi1 dao4 The number of characters in the <== reading direction lines are 667778 667778 correspond to Zhouyi hexagram 32 HENG and the Guicang hexagram 32 HENG WO HENG occur four times in the chapter 1 of the Mawangdui editions instead of the taboo character CHANG, used in the Received versions of Dao De Jing. CHANG means "eternal/unchanging", while the Zhouyi HENG means "independent", and the Guicang HENG WO means "independent I/selfish". The content of this chapter 59 is thus very close connected to the content of Dao De Jing chapter 1. The Guicang 667778 changes the hexagram 32 HENG WO into the hexagram 20 KUAN (Contemplation), that in the text is represented by the third last character shi4 "to observe/ to see".

OK ... I suppose that you too prefer the last lines of Dr. Wang's translation Valid is: "the existing state of the existing states is their mother". Valid is: "for a long time correct spoken deeply rooted". Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest. Prevailing without a limit, it can be used to manage a country. Managing a country with this principle will endure long. This is why we say: Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life. The first text use the decline of the worn-out Zhou state as a parable to describe Tao. The last text looks to me like the smalltalk of cocktailparty about common principles.

The last line looks to me like a flowering plant, maybe a yarrow or milfoil 1. gu4 .......... solidification, foundation, strength 2. di3 ........... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root) 3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root) 4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed) 5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk) 6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence) *. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity) *. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun) A reading from above to below (left to right) results in these two mistakes: The photosynthesis of plants feeds the sun with energy. The gravity makes the sun spin around the earth. A reading from below to above (right to left) results in these two facts: The sun feeds the plants by photosynthesis. The graviation makes the earth spin around the sun. *. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun) *. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity) 6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence) 5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk) 4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed) 3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root) 2. di3 .......... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root) 1. gu4 ......... solidification, foundation, strength Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

Henricks is not translating but interpreting. He uses [to the Way] allthough "the way" isn't mentioned at all in the previous text. What's mentioned is "serving Heaven", so if he was translating, then he would have written [to Heaven]. Henricks treats the chapter 59 text as if it was written by a newcomer and not written by the Grand Historian and Astrologer Lao Dan, one of the most intelligent men in whole China around 375 BC. And still ... "serving Heaven" ... is the definition of a taoist: one who serves Heaven? And by the way ... after sparing, how do I submit ... does Tao have a mailbox or a bank account?