lienshan

藐姑射之山 , 汾水之陽 藐 miao : insignificant (Ku-she is not high but stands high above the surrounding area) 姑 gu : mother in law 射 she : archery (listed by Confucius as one of six arts required of a scholar) 之 zhi : its 山 shan : mountain 汾 fen : Fen (a tributary of the Yellow River) 水 shui : water 之 zhi : its 陽 Yang : yang (downstream southwards, sunny side of a mountain, opposite of yin) Mount Ku-she is situated north of river Fen at the mongolian border.

Confucius replied, 'When I was little, I lived in Lu, and wore the garment with large sleeves; when I was grown up, I lived in Song, and was then capped with the kang-fu cap. How are you able to distinguish between Confucius and a Song man? He was, according to himself, like Song men capped with a kang-fu cap! Great-small is in focus at the beginning of the chapter but outside-inside at the end.

I view the internal links between the four last paragraphs (and the first) in this way: The ceremonial hats relate to the usefulness of the gourds. The Sizi 4 virtues relate to the usefulness of the ailanthus tree. The hat-salesman travels to the dark sea of the south - the non-chinese state Yue. The emperor Yao travels to the dark sea of the north - Gu Ye at the mongolian border. I view 'the spirit-like man' at Gu Ye as relating to the earlier saying about Liezi: Thus called: a grounded man has no self, the spiritual man has no merit, a sage has no title 故曰 ： 至人無己 , 神人無功 , 聖人無名 This relates directly to the two chapter 64 versions of the Guodian Tao Teh Ching but sshhh ... it's not popular to bring substandard stuff into these fine threads 至 means either 'a bird landing' or 'the superlative degree'. Legge choosed the latter but the first makes more sense when called 'grounded'. The samples of 'grounded men' are Song Rongzi and Yin Wen (Scolding Quail). 神 is as an adjective the opposite that'll say 'spiritual'. The sample is Liezi ... and maybe the four confucian virtues? Both 'grounded' and 'spiritual' are entitling the respective men. 聖人 (holy man) has no title so the best pick is 'sage'.

Yao ruled the people of the kingdom, and maintained a perfect government within the four seas. Having gone to see the four (Perfect) Ones on the distant hill of Gu Ye, when (he returned to his capital) on the south of the Fen water, his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes. 堯治天下之民 , 平海內之政 , 往見四子藐姑射之山 , 汾水之陽 , 窅然喪其天下焉 That in red looks suspect to me. 四子 'Sizi' means the four confucian virtues: Zhong (忠 Loyalty), Xiao (孝 Filial piety), Jie (節 Continency), Yi (義 Righteousness). That'll say I suspect that 'Sizi' is one of Zhuangzi's fictional persons and not four persons. That would fit with previous paragraph if the Song hatseller is read as being Confucius himself.

I think that XieJia is very close to my answer: Zhuangzi demonstrates in the last two paragraphs, that only the 'use fa' is useless! Everything else can be argueed as being useful! I've almost finished my reading of chapter 1 Only the tiny 'Yao travels to mount Ku-she' paragraph still cause me trouble

Hi Raimonio I imagine that your french is more wellcome that your native finnish TERVETULOA

In my native language it's called: 'blind like a mole' That reason why Zhuangzi nicknamed the mohists as 'moles' is probably this invention: A common offensive strategy in warring states China was to tunnel under a defensive wall to either collapse the wall or sneak troops inside the city. One mohist invention was to dig a tunnel on the inside of a city wall and put a large drum at the bottom, which would resonate with and amplify the sound of enemy miners so they could be detected. (Bryan W. Van Norden)

There was no desert but a rainforrest in Yue Yue conquered Wu in 473 BC and became neighbor to Song and Lu. Mozi wrote two texts with content relating directly to this Zhuangzi chapter: Mozi book 12 (Gong Meng no. 3) Gong Mengzi, wearing a ceremonial hat, carrying the officials' tablet, and in the cloak of the learned, came to see Mozi and asked: "Does the gentleman dress in appropriate attire before acting. Or does he do his business first and then consider his attire?" Mozi said: Action does not depend on attire. Gong Mengzi asked how is it possible to know. Mozi said: Formerly, Lord Huan of Qi (685-643 B.C.), wearing a high hat and a wide girdle, with a gold sword and wooden shield, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Wen of Jin (780-746 B.C.), wearing garments of coarse cloth and sheepskin cloak, with the sword in a leather belt, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Zhuang of Chu (671-626 B.C.), wearing a gaudy hat with a tassel, and a red garment and a big gown, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Gou Jian of Yue (496-465 B.C.), had his hair cut short and his body tattooed and governed his state, and his state became orderly. Now, these four lords differed in attire but agreed in action. I therefore know action does not depend on attire. Mozi book 13 (Lu's questions no. 13) After Mozi had paid Gong Shang Guo a visit, Gong Shang Guo recommended him to the Lord of Yue. The Lord of Yue was greatly pleased, saying to Gong Shang Guo: "Sir, if you can induce Mozi to come to Yue and instruct me I shall offer him five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Gong Shang Guo promised to try and so fifty wagons were made ready to go to Lu, and welcome Mozi. (Gong Shang Guo) told him: "When I tried to persuade the Lord of Yue with your principles he was quite pleased and said to me that if I could induce you to come to Yue and instruct him, he would offer you five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Mozi said to Gong Shang Guo: As you observe it, what is the intention of the Lord of Yue? If the Lord of Yue will listen to my word and adopt my way, I shall come, asking only for food according to the capacity of my stomach, and clothing according to the stature of my body. I shall just be one of the ministers. What is the use of any commission? On the other hand, if the Lord of Yue will not listen to my word and adopt my way and I should go nevertheless, I should then be selling my righteousness. As for selling righteousness I could very well do it in China, why should I then go out to Yue? The 'I shall come, asking only for ...' is similar to this Zhuangzi text: The tailor-bird makes its nest in the deep forest, but only uses a single branch; the mole drinks from the He, but only takes what fills its belly.

The internet has made detailed research simple. Why not use it to improve the reading? An example: A man of Song, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yue, the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them. The man of Song is according to my research of Ru Xing paragraph 1 Confucius Confucius replied, 'When I was little, I lived in Lu, and wore the garment with large sleeves; when I was grown up, I lived in Song, and was then capped with the kang-fu cap. Zhuangzi underlines the metaphor by using an unusual 'to go to' verb in the paragraph: 適 is in the Shuo Wen dictionary defined as Lu and Song dialect But why does Confucius suddenly pop up offering a ceremonial hat to the man of Yue? How can I read 'the general message' when unable to read what's actual written

I know but did only quote the first use of '15 years' to link Liezi to 10 + 5 (15). There's too a link to 10 + 5 in the last paragraph of chapter 1: the Ailanthus tree! It's either male (yang) or female (yin). The female flowers contain 10 (or rarely 5 through abortion) sterile stamens with heart-shaped anthers. The Ailanthus was medicinally used to cure mental illnesses. That's proberly the link to emperor Yao? The previous gourd paragraph is maybe too linking to medicinally use? The doctors would carry medicine inside a gourd, so it has fabled properties for healing. The gourd is believed to absorb negative earth-based qi, that would otherwise affect health. Gourds were also grown in earthen molds to form different shapes with imprinted design, and dried to house pet crickets, which were kept for their song and fighting abilities. This might explain 'the mold of Yao and Shun' in the Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph?

That's the modernized (read confucian) version The fact is, according to exavacated bamboo annals, that Shun rebelled against Yao, and that Shun banished Yao's son, who was killed. A passage in Mozi's book 1 says that: Thus Shun came under the influences of Xu You and Bo Yang; Yu, under that of Gao Tao and Bo Yi; Tang, under that of Yi Yin and Zhong Hui; and King Wu, under that of the Grand Duke and Duke Zhou. Now these four kings had been under good influences. The confucian falsification of history seems to be Zhuangzi's target here, and he continues in two paragraphs of the chapter 1 section C. The above came to light during the international 5 years project dating ancient China, and more detailed in professor Alan Kam-leung Chan's book about Mencius. The problem was, as I understand it, that Yao became 'senile dementia'. That's a problem, if he's a sageking that you if confucian must praise, and it's ofcourse a much greater problem to the mohist 'root fa' because quoting ancient sagekings prooves their theory! That must be the reason why Zhuangzi displays the sage as more or less insane E.g. in the Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph discussing Jie Yu. Jie Yu occurs in the analects 18.5 : The madman of Chu, Jie Yu, passed by Confucius, singing and saying, "O Feng! O Feng! How is your virtue degenerated! As to the past, reproof is useless; but the future may still be provided against. Give up your vain pursuit. Give up your vain pursuit. Peril awaits those who now engage in affairs of government." Confucius alighted and wished to converse with him, but Jie Yu hastened away, so that he could not talk with him.

The Great One is defined in the below 15 lines of Ta Yi Sheng Shui. The number 15 seems important and occurs in the first line of Liezi's 'The Yellow Emperor': The Yellow Emperor sat for fifteen years on the throne The 15 Ta Yi Sheng Shui lines: 1. The Great One gives birth to water 2. The return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven 3. The heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth. 4. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit. 5. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang. 6. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons. 7. The return of the four seasons mutually assist thus completing freeze and boil. 8. The return of freeze and boil mutually assist thus completing moisture and fluid. 9. The return of moisture and fluid mutually assist thus completing a year and ends. 10. Therefore: What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid. 11. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil. 12. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang. 13. What's yin and yang is the birth of light and spirit. 14. What's light and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. 15. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. The Zhuangzi chapter 1 structure seems to be made of maybe these 15 paragraphs: 1. The Kun in the north sea 2. *The Kun changes to Peng; south pool heaven 3. *The Riddles of Qi 4. *The boat in a cup of water 5. *The cicada and educated dove 6. The morning mushroom and summer cikada; night-day and four seasons 7. *The Questions of Tang to Li; north pool heaven 8. The Scolding Quail 9. The Song Rongzi 10. The Liezi and a 10 days period and 5 days (15 days in Legge's translation) 11. The emperor Yao and Xu You; cook and sacrificial priest 12. The Jian Wu and Lian Shu; to mold Yao and Shun 13. The hat salesman travelling south and the emperor Yao travelling north 14. The Huizi and Zhuangzi; gourd usage 15. The Huizi and Zhuangzi; tree usage The name Peng occur in five paragraphs marked * It's very hard to believe that there's a directly connection between the two texts, but it's maybe an inspiring way to look at the whole chapter 1 as one single text.

I think that one totally misses Zhuangzi's pointe if not translating the names: E.g. 'Scolding Quail': the chinese character meaning 'Scolding' consists of two elements, that when treated as two characters looks exactly like the name 'Yin Wen', who was the younger disciple of Song Rongzi mentioned in the following paragraph! These two Jixia Academy scholars are too mentioned together in Zhuangzi's last chapter 33. You are hurrying through Zhuangzi like blind men

Nicknaming King Huai of Chu as 'Cultivated Dove' or 'Educated Dove' can be explained this way: A pigeon has a homeage feeling while a dove hasn't. Pigeons can thus be trained as 'homing pigeons' while doves doesn't return. King Huai of Chu was in 299 BC tricked to participate in a peace conference in Qin. He was captured when arriving, jailed and died in Qin never returning. The poet Qu Yuan argueed against the king's travel to Qin. Those pursuading the king to travel were maybe the mohists?

'time' was actually what made me think of Ta Yi Sheng Shui. You wrote 'but the main idea is that we are talking about an ANNUAL process of climate change' which fits with the point of return in the middle of Ta Yi Sheng Shui text. What interests me at the moment is the structure of the whole Zhuangzi chapter 1, because that might highlight, whether Liezi and the Great One is the main subject of the chapter or not? I try view the chapter as a mohist three fa Justification of the Great One: The two last paragraphs with Zhuangzi and Huizi relate to the earlier paragraph about the cup of water and the boat. The subject is whether something is beneficial or not? That'll say a mohist 'use fa'. The two paragraphs about the Riddles of Qi and the Questions of Tang to Ji seem too linked together, if the subject is the mohist 'root fa'? But the 'source fa' is hard to identify, if the speaking ones are animals E.g. 'Scolding Quail' who is translated as 'a quail'??? A quail fly 5 feet vertical up in the air, when upset, and bangs the head against a roof lower than 5 feet, which the chinese charater for scolding shows, but it can't like cicadas and doves not speak. So the animals are nicknames of real persons with talents like those of the animals. Animals do ofcourse speak in fairytales, but isn't this a philosophical text?

學鳩 'Educated Dove' is maybe one of Zhuangzi's funny nicknames? Hanfeizi writes about a person with a similar nickname in more of his stories: 徐渠問田鳩曰 : 臣聞 ... 'Slowly Canal' asked 'Cultivated Dove' saying : the minister have heard ... 楚王謂田鳩曰 : 墨子 ... the Chu King named 'Cultivated Dove' says : Mozi ... the Chu King is praising Mozi, so 'Cultivated Dove' seems synonymous with a mohist King Huai of Chu 328-299 BC had too the official name: 熊槐 Xiong the Locust Tree LOCUST (Huaimu) Especially hard and strong, huaimu is a very dense and coarsely grained wood that, once dry, is naturally resistant to moisture and insect damage. In appearance it is quite similar to Northern Chinese elm, with its long grain patterns and yellow-brown color. Though difficult to cut, once accomplished it reveals a wonderfully lustrous surface. 'Educated Dove' seems to be connected with the elm and not the sandalwood tree in the story

A cicada has in fact a lifecircle of either 13 years or 17 years and is a longivity symbol in China. But it only has the form of an insect with big eyes and wings for a couple of months in the summer. Or put in other words: a cicada has a lifecircle similar to Kun the fish changing into Peng the bird. It lives 13 years or 17 years in the earth as a nymph and then it changes into the adult flying form. There are in fact two trees in Zhuangzi's story: 榆 an elm 枋 a sandalwood (a parasitic tree that'll say needs a host tree to grow) This paragraph seems misunderstood and mistranslated I do not buy your 'little learning dove' explanation ... the term 蜩與學鳩 must in some way relate to the specific relationship of the two trees The cicada and 'the unknown' are in the last line of the paragraph named 二蟲 'two insects'. The Shuo Wen dictionary: 蟲 : 有足謂之蟲 , 無足謂之豸 insects : have feet is called an insect , not have feet is called a leggless insect (豸 is too a legendary beast)

蜩與學鳩 .... 之二蟲 litteral translated: cicada and teached dove .... these two insects Isn't 學鳩 the name of an insect? 學 means 'study, learn, doctrine, teaching, school of thought'. Wouldn't Zhuangzi have used another character e.g. 小 'small' to say 'little dove'?

I suspect, that your six Qi is a later developed definition like: ceasing yin - wind yang brilliance - dryness major yin - dampness major yang - cold minor yin - heat minor yang - fire Zhuangzi's morning mushroom paragraph speaks about night/day and the seasons. This corresponds more to the six terms of Ta Yi Sheng Shui: 神明 - spirit and light 寒然 - cold and heat 濕澡 - moisture and dryness Where I read the last two pairs as representing the four seasons. But there was probably more schemes circulating which Zhuangzi demonstrates by contradicting stories highlighting the theory of the six Qi and the five periods. E.g. is the Pool of Heaven in south in the first paragraph, while the Pool of Heaven is in North in the Questions of Tang to Li paragraph. By the way - this pdf file translation is great; 1. chapter begins at page 7.

That'll say Liezi was the inventor of the Five Periods and Six Qi theory according to Zhuangzi. A quote from Liezi's Cosmogony chapter 1: The law of constant production and of constant evolution at no time ceases to operate. So is it with the Yin and the Yang, so is it with the Four Seasons. A quote from the Ta Yi Sheng Shui (the Great One gives birth to water): What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang. The return of Liezi seems important both here and at the beginning of Zhuangzi's chapter 32. Here is mentioned 'a ten-days period and five days' There is mentioned 'ten different inns and in five of them' The return is too important in Ta Yi Sheng Shui; e.g. in the opening line: The Great One gives birth to water and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth. I am aware, that the above look confusing at first sight, but that's the most simple way for me at the moment to explain, why I read immeasurable Kun changing to Peng as symbolizing 'the Great One'

Your line express the limitation of mohism seen from Laozi's point of view. To determine whether some doctrine was right, the mohists compared it to their three standards (fa): the practical benefit, the perceptual experience, and the will of heaven. 人法地 man standards earth (the practical benefit) 地法天 earth standards heaven (the perceptual experience) 天法道 heaven standards Dao (the will of heaven) 道法自然 Dao standards by itself The relationship between the four lines is this formula: A is to B like C is to D man standards earth is to earth standards heaven like heaven standards Dao is to Dao standards by itself Wellcome

Wow. Did you miss the first chapter...??? You know, that about the Kun fish and the Peng bird 2. How in the world can a fish be so long and immeasurable broad...??? 3. How the hell can a bird have so large (wind producing) wings...???

Don't worry ... I'm still tiptoeing ... this paragraph makes me think of the Guodian chapter 5: Is the interval of Heaven and Earth similar to a sackpipe or an emptiness? If not squeezed a void and if alternated an emission? I'm not sure if there actually is the better choice for the translation here

Professor Liu, the music school of Shanghai Normal University: This flute, the name of which is pronounced the same as the word for "music" in Chinese, used to be an important instrument in many ancient ceremonial rituals. Liu noticed that the name of the ney is close to the Chinese word "lai," 籟 which is defined in "Shuo Wen Jie Zi" China's first dictionary, which dates from the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25-220), as "a three-hole yue." The music of Heaven or The flute of Heaven

The last paragraph exists in more versions I read 'the flute of heaven' as singularis and therefore the last lines this way: This blows tenthousand independent ones, but suppose they themselves stop? Together they themselves silence the passionate one? They and who?