Tao99

sorry I don't get angry at silly ass internet arguments. After getting beat up by my zen master do you think I give two shts about a silly argument. please. that's the easy part. Are all self-cultivaters who find some success on a high horse? Maybe the high horse is yours ...

"By the way, you are contributing absolutely nothing to the content of this discussion.Cheerleaders can just stay on the sidelines please." Lucky7Strikes Uh oh. Another one bites the dust. Poor Buddha, must be rolling over in his grave. All he wanted to do was point out the truth of suffering and the way out, due to his infinite compassion.

Wow, there is a lot stuffed into this chapter. The last line above reminds me of our prior thread on chapter 5 ( thread ): "Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change." They do things not by desire for fame/fortune or glorifying self-fulfilment, but by need, and w/o overlay of affective sentiment. And how about that first line: "The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive." The book was compiled around 500 BC, so who were these 'ancient masters' that are mentioned in 500 BC? This shows that masters of the Tao go way back via oral tradition at least another 1000 years, and probably 1000s. Also, this chapter is describing the 'ancient masters of the Tao' and so it is describing the set of Taoist masters. So if a Tai Chi person is exhibiting this standard then he is behaving as a Taoist master. But not all Tai Chi people are at that level. I like the Feng/English translation.

Thanks for lettin me know. This will work. Corrected it above too. TTC chapter index: http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm TTC author index: http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/all_translations.htm

Hey Apepch7. Thanks for the link. Also, for those who don't know. You can browse the TTC chapter by chapter and see 29 different translations in line-by line comparisons. And read all 29 translations, line by line beside each other, or a single translation. chapter index: http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm author index: http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/all_translations.htm Also you can see all the actual Chinese characters, and get their literal meanings in the TTC here: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing.php

Nobody is making up or adding words. Actually it's "cut grass" if you want to be literal. Chapter 5 Line 1. 天地不仁，以萬物為芻狗﹔聖人不仁，以百姓為芻狗。天地之間， 芻 狗 芻 chu - cut grass, straw, hay 狗 gou - dog Everyone in China knows what a 芻 狗, and what and how it was used. No bid deal or surprise there. Never was. Taijilee summed up this chapter best, as it is understood in Taoism (thanks): In his (Lin) commentary on this chapter he writes: (1) The original chinese characters bu ren are often mistranslated as "ruthless" or "without compassion." This produces statements at odds with reality, because real-life sages are compassionate individuals- hardly ruthless. The true meaning of bu ren is that the Tao does not play favorites. The rain waters weeds and orchids equally; the sun shines on everyone with the same brightness and warmth despite variations in individual merits. The sage, in emulating the Tao, also regards everyone in the same egalitarian light-none higher and none lower. (2) Straw dogs are literally small dog figurines made from straw. They were used in ancient times for rituals, and then discarded after use. It is a striking metaphor when we consider how we are similiar to the straw dogs. we are here to go through the ritual called life; when the ritual is done there is no further use for the physical body, so it is discarded.

Lot of food for thought jammed in this one. He may be just an I-less, impermanent, self-less, mind stream but it's true the zither will just lie there ... without THAT, whatever it is. The book will remain closed, the brush unmoved, his sword unsheathed, without THAT, whatever it is. A path to the innermost part of his being indeed!

Heheh j/k no problem. And I know what you mean,there's something chemo-logical about biological flesh

What?!? Cmon!! Here's the World's First Love Song Written for a Humanoid-Robot. Very sentimental and touching! Don't be a hater! ... My Q2

Introducing the Awesome, Orgasmic, Ultimate, $9,000 "Roxxxy Robot Girlfriend" She embodies Buddhist-like Emptiness, very polite and is good at small talk. What's not to love? What's really missing?? True Companion, a New Jersey technology company, says it has developed "the world's first sex robot," a life-size rubber doll that's not just for sex, but is also designed to engage the owner with "stimulating" conversation. "I love holding hands with you," the dark-haired, negligee-clad robot said after it sensed that its creator touched its hand at a demonstration at the Adult Entertainment Expo in Las Vegas on Saturday. "Sex only goes so far, then you want to be able to talk to the person," Inventor Hines said. "She can't vacuum, she can't cook but she can do almost anything else if you know what I mean," Hines told The Sun. "She's a companion. She has a personality. She hears you. She listens to you. She speaks. She feels your touch." "At last, they can have a 'girlfriend experience' with someone interested in their views..." http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/11/crimesider/entry6082714.shtml

Didn't Chuang Tzu say happiness is giving up the quest for happiness?

Treating things impartially can be the kindest thing of all, say a judge at a murder trial. I should add that others have translated it as you have, and in other such ways. I guess that's what makes it such a mystery - what could the Tao follower Lao Tzu have meant? Here's a bunch of translations: http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap05.htm#top Ch. 05 Sentence 1 Beck Nature is not humane. It treats all things like sacrificial objects. Blackney Is then the world unkind? And does it treat all things Like straw dogs used in magic rights Bynner Nature, immune as to a sacrifice of straw dogs, Faces the decay of its fruits. Byrn Heaven and Earth are impartial; they treat all of creation as straw dogs. Chan Heaven and Earth are not humane. They regard all things a straw dogs. Cleary Heaven and earth are not humane; they regard all beings as straw dogs. Crowley Heaven and Earth produce without motive, but casually, in their order of nature, dealing with all things carelessly, like used talismans. Hansen Heaven-earth [the cosmos] is not kind. It treats the 10,000 natural kinds as straw dogs. LaFargue "Heaven and Earth are not Good they treat the thousands of things like straw dogs Legge Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. Lindauer Heavens and earth are without humanizing It happens that the 10000 things act as straw dogs LinYutan Nature is unkind: It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs. Mabry Heaven and Earth are impartial, They allow things to die. McDonald The universe seems without mercy, quite ruthless; in that wider perspective all things are but as ritual straw dogs. Merel Nature is not kind; It treats all things impartially. Mitchell The Tao doesn't take sides; it gives birth to both good and evil. Muller Heaven and Earth are not jen, And regard the people as straw dogs. Red Pine Heaven and Earth are heartless treating creatures like straw dogs Ta-Kao Heaven and earth do not own their benevolence, To them all things are straw dogs Walker Heaven and Earth are not sentimental; they regard all things as dispensable. Wayism The Tao does not take sides; it gives birth to both good and evil. Material things are like incense sticks, burned in worship but discarded ashes. Wieger Heaven and earth are not good to the things that they produce, but treat them like straw dogs. World Heaven and earth are indifferent. All creatures are considered straw dogs; not distinguished, not judged. Wu Heaven-and-Earth is not sentimental; It treats all things as straw-dogs.

Ok, so you are using the Buddhist doctrine of clinging and ignorance etc, and this begins and ends with the Four Noble Truths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths #1 The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha): "This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; "[9][10] #2 Suffering's Origin (Samudaya): "This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."[9][10] #3 Suffering's Cessation (Nirodha): "This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."[9][10] #4 The Way (Magga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering: "This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; So in Buddhist doctrine, it is the craving/clinging to the beliefs that is at the origin of suffering, not the beliefs in existence or free will, and it is the cessation of precisely this same craving that brings about the cessation of suffering. So I don't see the subjective understanding of the world to be much of a big deal, especially in light of Buddhist doctrine, and due to the fact that it does successfully keep me from eating turds and flushing food!

I hear you say this a lot, and I keep thinking the same thing ... So what? So what if we can only know the objective (existing w/o subject) world as mediated by the subjective mind? We can still understand the objective world well enough to know to flush the turd and eat the food. And that's good enough for me. What am I missing?

So said one in the back: Can being completely emotionless, that is flat calm, serenely tranquil and unmoving, make one happy? Does happiness need an anchor the way fire needs a log (combustible object)? Is bliss another term for happiness? Right now I have more questions then answers.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rq9M1e7tP0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rq9M1e7tP0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rq9M1e7tP0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object> Norah Jones - Chasing Pirates (Lyrics) In your message you said, you were goin' to bed, but I'm not done with the night. So I stayed up and read, but your words in my head, got me mixed up so I turned out the light. And I, don't know how, to slow it down. My mind's racing from chasing pirates. Well the man in there swings while the silliest things, floppin around in my brain. And I try not to dream but them possible schemes, swim around, wanna drown me in synch. And I, don't know how, to slow it down. Oh my mind's racing from chasing pirates. x2 My mind's racin' from chasing pirates. x2

This principle 4 is taken from chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, one of the most mysterious of the chapters. You can see here: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing05.php that the term in question is "buren" and is defined as not benevolent, and also heartless and numb. Does this automatically mean it's a synonym for unkind? Not necessarily. Consider Legge's translation: Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. How were these grass, or strawdogs dealt with? Exactly as per their function, or nature, as ceremonial means to a sacred end, after which they were forgotten, like the boat that gets you across the river. It is left to its true nature. Thus for the sage there is no wish to be benevolent there is just spontaneous, natural, nature based interaction with the 10,000 things.

What if both, in a binary mix? Yikes!

I never heard of the diamond mind in any Taoist books.

How do they reconcile indestructible diamond body spirit with selfless emptiness? This is the tunacow fork in the road.

That was cool. Seems to explain some things. Love that website, he was the teacher of my teacher's teacher. Thanks for posting. I think TTB get along pretty good considering it's an open public forum.

The universe is a mustard seed in the palm of your hand or so the saying goes. On one side existences (yu), on the other side not (wu) And so you see the Whole, in the palm of your hand.

Just like to say that this debate you all are having shows that TTB is not a "hostile environment" but a place where vigorous and invigorating debating can occur without descending into acrimony (personal insults just to hurt). So that is something very different then hostility, to be expected on a public forum, and I commend you all for it. TTB is not a hostile environment - it's (for the most part) a vigorous and invigorating environment IMO.

Great question - how to follow the Tao. What's it look like in the big picture as a whole? When needed, the mysterious pass opens and the necessary energy moves. When stillness is appropriate, the mysterious pass closes, and the Quietude of the mystery abounds. Thus the seasons of life follow one after the other.