Sloppy Zhang

Greetings..

 

Occasionally, i go to a local mall, get a nice cup of coffee, find a isolated bench and just sit and watch the people.. i look into people's eyes, i look for signs of Life, Taoists know what that is.. usually, is just the mechanized maddness of meat-puppets, but.. every now and then, you see that spark of Life.. sometimes it's only a desperate spark, but there's hope.. sometimes, recognition is returned, a smile or a nod, or a passing kind word.. but then, there are the true encounters with Taoists that don't know they're taoists, yet.. they sit and chat and they are alive and vibrant.. ithen, i return to my solitude and practice with hope..

 

Be well..

My cousin was in the mall and looked somebody in the eye....

The man responded, "who the fuck are you looking at?" Then he and his two friends decided to start beating the crap out of my cousin until security arrived.

Keep it real.

I do not imply that everyone else is fake. But the person in question was Xie Bingcan.

Thanks!

I wasn't there. But I wouldn't rush to assign any more credibility to 100-year-old stories than to modern ones.

Neither would I, yet they got their style, and their name, established somehow.

It occurs to me that ultimately the true MMA champions are going to incorporate IMA deeply into there styles. When I see the very highest level, people like 'The Spider' Silva, they seem to be in another time zone then there opponents. When I look at Chuck Liddell's physique there is a deceptive softness to it that is common in high level IMA. There are a number of champions who look clumsy but have deceptive power that puts opponents away.

 

It may well be that the very best use IMA techniques now as there secret weapons.

 

 

Michael

Yes! There are some very interesting videos of people like Kyuzo Mifune, who was a high level Judo practitioner, and some of his throws seem as effortless as the throws you'd see in aikido. And Silva is another great example of a modern day fighter. He drops his guard, dances around opponents, dodges, fights really effortlessly, but is able to be devastatingly strong at the same time.

At the extreme of yang, there is yin?

look obviously have something to prove. please move on and grow up you dont know me. we have never met or spoke. please get a life.

Well, with all due respect, some of us DO want to get to know you, and it'd be great if you'd share

GREAT stuff!

i just posted my thoughts on taoism.

And they were rather powerful thoughts, which, in my very humble opinion, merit a bit more expounding upon, for instance, how does one come about those thoughts? Who does one learn from in order to arrive at those thoughts? etc etc

and your still not getting it this convo should not happen here every post that is not about his book is in disrespect to him so please be respectful of our host 5et and start a new thread.

I've re-posted my own personal questions in the thread you started (the one titled mpway.... which isn't actually about mpway, but about you now the thread about you got deleted)

So... grabbed from another thread:

5ELEMENTTAO,

 

I apologize for the mess that has stemed from my posts on here. Im sure your book is of top quality. I wish you all the best. Your a stronger person than most please continue to be strong against all the negativity that you battle. I too battle this as you can see. i wish you all the best.

 

Sincerly,

 

Charles Lee

 

(chen taiji practitoner)

So, what kind of chen taiji do you practice? You've mentioned a lot about the taoist path, your masters attaining tao, your master's masters attaining tao, how did they do that? Through chen taiji practice? What lineage? Did they attain it through something else? If so, what else?

Hey Electric Gravity,

 

I find your posts interesting. What you have said about the tao seems accurate, at least from my limited experience. But of course it's bad manners to fill someone else's thread with stuff that's not really on topic...anyway my point: just wanted to let you know that people are interested in your posts.

I too find your posts interesting. Lots of insights, suggestions, and you've related a bit from your personal experience.

People ARE interested in your posts- which is why they would like to know who you are, what you practice, where you got your knowledge from. You've made comments that your teacher (and their teachers) have truly attained the tao. Many would like to do so on this board, so it's no wonder that people keep asking questions about you!

If you have been falsely accused of being someone you are not, that is regrettable. If you are someone who regularly acts under false pretenses, that is also regrettable.

But the best way to find this out is with the truth. Just the facts.

Who are you? Who did you learn from? Is this a known lineage? Something obscure? If you know about your master's masters, then there is some kind of lineage, is this documented? Where is it from? etc etc.

It's not an interrogation, it's just that you've become a victim of your own wisdom you've piqued peoples' interests, and they want more!

your both acting as trollers i never said anything about 5et i gave my pinion on norse taosim and i deleted my post because i have class unlike some others. Even though i dont like whats happened on this thread i dont think it should affect the book its here to promote.

 

Mpway, SloppyZhang,

 

grow up! get a life and delete your posts so 5et can promote his book you a**holes!

I'm not trolling. I really do want to know who you are, and what you practice.

You had a very strong opinion about something which coincided with 5ET debut of his book. I would very much like to know where someone can go to learn how to distinguish between what is "real" taoism, and what is "not real" taoism. Maybe 5ET's stuff is legit, maybe not. But how do we know if the people with the "real" taoism are holding out on us?

I've got a lot of respect for 5ET, he's put a lot of effort into making the site, not to mention a book! He's showed a lot of dedication in pursing the path (from what I gather based on my interactions with him on the forum), and is doing everyone a great service by sharing with us what he's learned, and I really don't like how his thread has turned into this. However, a thread to figuring out who YOU are just doesn't seem to be working out. So, yeah, it sucks that we're having to discuss this here.... but you know, we wouldn't be having this discussion if you had just answered concisely about you and your teacher and your method the first time.... or the second time.... or the third time....

I met a Taiji instructor who studied directly with the senior members of the Yang and Wu styles. He said that the number of students to whom he has taught everything he learned from his own masters, is zero. In over fifty years of teaching, zero. Not because he doesn't want to share, but because nobody has been both willing and able to absorb it all.

Mind sharing the name of this person? It's always good to know where to go if you want to study some real tai chi.

Some people like Taiji and others hate it. But how many are even capable of considering it--as it barely existed 100 years ago, and barely exists today--much less analyzing its strengths and weaknesses?

Well back then Yang Chengfu and Yang Banhou were out there every day on the leitai establishing themselves, making a reputation, fighting and WINNING, given officially appointed positions, and the like. They took their skills right in the middle of where all the fighting was, and came out victorious.

Where is the fighting nowadays? Leitai? War zones? MMA? How many tai chi people are fighting in those? The bullshido guys have found videos of sanshou people using moves that look like tai chi. Haven't heard much about tai chi in the military. Or MMA. Brazilian jujutsu made a name for itself in MMA. Combat brazilian jujutsu (complete with eye gouges, knives, and broken glass!) is now being taught in military combatives in the ground fighting section- why? Because it WORKS. Because Royce Gracie fought and DEFEATED numerous people who were BIGGER than him and who wanted to seriously put some hurt on him. Because even BEFORE UFC 1, the Gracie family had given out the Gracie challenge, and they were choking people out day in, day out, making a name for themselves, keeping their money, and making good on their word.

What have the top styles of tai chi done? What have all the unnamed masters done for their art in recent times?

Is this what passes for combat science nowadays? If you issue a challenge and nobody answers it, then you can rightfully declare yourself (or your ideology, if there is any difference) champion? Well, I guess that would explain the proliferation of Grandmasters.

What passes for combat science is what is there to research. Professional fighters, soldiers, schools, and other organizations are there to be tested. You watch a show like fight science, and you get guys like Bas Rutten being tested against some no-name guy who claims to practice ninjutsu. Bas is generating the force of a car crashing into your rib cage, the scientists are blown away, they don't believe the numbers and keep having to retest, then this no name ninjutsu guy is hitting the thing and barely making a dent. They're like, "yeah.... it's like you got punched in the chest." Then look back at Bas and are like, "holy fuck, the numbers look like a car!"

Then all the ninjas come out of the internet wood work, "oh well that wasn't ninjutsu", "oh well that test was biased", "oh well that would never work in t3h streetz", "oh yeah, there are no rules in the real world."

SAME THING goes on with IMA guys. Same thing. It's pathetic, really. The only people who are to blame for the decreasing quality of IMA these days, are the IMA teachers who are hiding in the corner. Sure, everyone has a right to lead a private life. You don't have to teach on your uber deadly skills if you don't want to. You don't have to step into the octagon, or go to a military combatives program, if you really don't want to.

Just don't turn around and start complaining that no one is giving you a fair deal.

i never referred that someone in specific was not practicing real taoism i was bringing a point up in general.

Really now?

Norse taoism! humphf!

 

no such thing!

This seems to indicate that you know what is and isn't taoism...

Just because a practitioner or practitioners may have shamanistic training, some chi work, and so on doesnt mean they are a taoist.

Again, this seems to indicate that you know what a real taoist system entails....

For that you have to attain the tao. Which is very real. A taoist follows the tao to the highest realm of the tao to the heaven realm and get closer to god. The tao follows god like the mind follows the spirit.

Here you seem to indicate that you know what the goal of taoism is, and what it's like once you get there...

So a taoist must strengthen, purify, and increase the frequency of his energy. As well as channel and breath with the tao's energies until they happen all the time naturally. Reconnect and activate their te and thru their te connect to the tao and follow the te thru the network of the tao to the highest realm. Taoist alchemy lets you reach the point to where you can travel thru the wormhole in your self to the tao. At a certain level when your internal power is high enough it will match the vibratory frequency of the tao itself and the tao will be able to enter your body. At this point you start to become a vessel for the tao itself or the supreme ultimate.

Again you outline general prerequisites and steps that one goes through on the path.

Your te comes from the highest realm of the tao but it gets polluted and deactivated. Most other religions call this god's light inside you. Taoism is about connecting with god's energy inside you(te)so you can connect with god that is outside of you. The tao is the backbone energy of existance. (you see it all starts to make sense)

Here you are elaborating more on what the path entails.

you see my master is a taoist and he like his teachers has attained the tao and know the workings of it inside and out.

You then say that it's possible to attain the tao, and if this person is your master, then one would assume you know who this person is, know how to get into contact with this person, and that this person is teaching you the specific method that this teacher, and this teacher's previous teachers, have used to attain the tao.

just because you practice chi arts does not mean your a taoist unless your doing a practice that leads you to attaining the tao.

And here you say there is a distinction between arts that will actually get you along the path, and those that will not.

Theres a difference between a alchemist and a taoist.

 

over the years magic and sorcery has worked its way into taoist temples generations go by and people think that is true taoism. So people learn stuff like that and never learn how to actually attain the tao. do you see how deep the deception is? many practitioners never learn the tao work that comes at a certain part doing your alchemy.

 

once you become a vessel of the tao you dont need things like wizardy because you exchange with the stars, planets, yang energies, yin energies, and so on, with every breath you will natrually vibrate at the tao's level. Then you will have access to the whole net of the tao. All the realms and so on. The tao has no ultimate level. The path to god via the tao is infinite alot of beings get trapped on their way to the source of the tao itself. Your te is your guide to ascension to and in the tao.

 

its like this most alchemy takes you to the point of existing in your te after your bodily death but most never teaches the levels beyond that to the tao itself.

 

magic is just a deception to keep you from attaining the tao, or have people think that their gods, and takes the focus off of god all of which stops your from connecting to your te taosim is suppose to bring you closer to god not further away from him...just think about it.

Here you elaborate on many mechanisms of magic/sorcery/etc vs. tao, so one might infer that you know the difference, that you know how to recognize them, and that you know of a true path to get to the tao.

Now, I am asking if you would share this path. How do others find the true path so they are not lead astray? Can others find your master and also attain the true tao, and not get caught in such silliness that will just lead others astray? Please share, so that others may know of the true path as well!

i can also see that sz sent you the pm to come hassle me too. interesting.

I have not sent any PM to anyone about this thread, or about you personally. I've seen a couple of your posts around, and you've made some fairly good points and have contributed to discussions in the past.

Now I see you are commenting quite strongly in this thread, and am now curious about who you are, what methods you use, who your teachers are, and how you come to possess the knowledge and experience that you have conveyed.

It's as simple as that.

well if you would read the thread i was just inquiring about the book that i was interested in but now because of his negative response i have no interest in it.

 

i dont think that having strong believes demands verification from you. Especially since i do not know who you are....it goes both ways.

Yes, but I'm not the one claiming that someone's way is not true taoism, that I know what true taoism entails, and that I have a teacher who has attained the tao.

As a seeker myself, I am very interested in finding the true way. So it would be quite helpful if people further along the path than myself could help point me in the direction of a teacher who is an example of one who has attained the way.

instead of replying to what i said with reasonable points you switch from the topic at hand and turn to demand personal info from me... interesting

I like to know who it is I'm talking to. You seem to have a lot of very strong opinions of who a taoist is, what a taoist system entails, the goal is, and what the final goal should look like. So I'd like to know where you got these impressions, and where someone else can go to learn them

Because 5ET has been around for a while, I have come to value his advice and his experience, and I think it's nice that he's putting out info based on his own exploration and practice. He's been pretty up front with his website, and he's shared a lot of his practices in past threads. I feel like some people aren't taking the time to explore the site and actually look at the material for what it is, and are instead looking at the material for what they think it is. And that's not very cool. At least give it a try. At least give it a look.

And if you have some standard for appraising whether or not something is taoist, and if you know someone who has attained the goal of the taoists, well, please share

I've asked you twice, someone else has asked you once. 5ET has directed everyone to a nice website that they can read before they ask any further questions. Will you at least show us the same courtesy?

heck lets all think about it. who is yr master?

Yes-

This all sounds rather interesting- who is your teacher?

fiveelementtao has put together a great, very extensive website. There are lots of links and sub-links, so maybe some pages aren't being seen? Check the side bar when you open a new page, and it display some sub-pages.

fiveelementtao has been around a while, and has provided lots of help to lots of people, as well as, in general, giving great advice and insight. From what I know, he's pursued his path with great dedication and has a lot to show for it. I think the product he's putting out now has come about from a lot of work and experience.

Maybe we don't all like the labels used and stuff, but I don't think that these products are things that will take you off the path.

you see my master is a taoist and he like his teachers has attained the tao and know the workings of it inside and out.

This all sounds rather interesting- who is your teacher?

Words can never finish this argument.

 

Craig

True. The only people who can finish this argument are the people who have been called out. And you don't really see them stepping up too often.

Then some of the people who DO step up, well, there's a lot of debate about whether they are who they say they are. Some people say guys like BT are real internal guys, others say they aren't, and are using external shortcuts. Others say so-and-so is a great internal guy, then that person gets the crap beat out of them, and the people are saying, "well he wasn't using REAL such-and-such", or "well it was a fight in the ring" and whatever.

So, yeah. It'd be nice if we had a modern day version of Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Chen Fake, Sun Lutang, or any of the other famous internal guys that everyone likes to tell stories of. Who did these guys teach? Do any of these students have these capabilities? Are these just tall tales? Were these people just geniuses? Were they just lying completely? Was there a grain of truth?

Be careful with dreams, because they can conform frighteningly well to your expectations.

If you think that in a dream you'll be able to speak with God, with a higher power, have siddhis, be king of the world, then guess what? You will be.

But when you wake up (or maybe even years later), you'll realize you weren't doing anything but (literally) living in your dreams, conversing with a mental construct of your own making, who just spit out the answers you wanted to hear, with absolutely no relevance to any other type of reality.

If you think you really do have prophetic dreams, then you need to work on developing that to a degree where you can figure out if they are even reliably prophetic. If you had a dream where you were eating a turkey sandwich, then two days later you eat a turkey sandwich, well, to me that means absolutely nothing. I think (and dream) of things all the time that don't happen, and then I think (and dream) of things all the time that do happen. Does that mean I'm prophetic? Or does it just mean that my mind covers enough mental territory to cover all the bases?

In order to prevent self delusion, I think one needs to investigate and develop these phenomena until you can really be sure that what you have is, in fact, a form of precognition. And that comes WAY before figuring stuff like pyrokinesis.

Stories get chewed up in transition, as a rule, and a story with "more details" or a story with "fewer details" is not necessarily a different story. Besides, it is my impression that the English-Japanese interpreter was having some difficulties. E.g., to the question "what practices were you doing before meeting Max that prepared you for Max" Kan answers with a list of practices he got from Max. This means (to me, who has translated/interpreted and watched others do that too and knows how it goes) that the question was mistranslated and misunderstood, rather than evaded. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

What part of the conversation are you referring? I know a bit of Japanese, and could understand most of what he was saying.

I remember the part where he was asked what practices prepared him for golden dragon body, and he responded with kunlun neigong, red phoenix, five element (maybe something else? Don't recall) and she relayed that list exactly.

There are a few situations in which he's not quite sure how he wants to phrase it himself (for example, when talking about the energy that he feels around Max), he wasn't sure if even "energy" was the right word, so he spent some time kicking around some terminology to himself, then settled on a particular phrase. When the translator got it, rather than relaying the hoops Kan jumped through to arrive at the phrasing, she just relayed the phrasing he settled on at the end.

Japanese in particular is an interesting language in that there are various ways of tacking extra words/phrases onto a word to change the "flavor" of the word, or the context that you want to put it in, but doesn't add any literal meaning, so sometimes you can translate into english with a lot fewer words than was actually said (and then sometimes it takes more words in english to convey the meaning that was intended).

So again, if you could point out some specific times in the interview, I'll give it another listen!

Thanks for posting this! Interesting stuff.

Thanks for letting us know! Looks awesome

99% of IMA practitioners do not train in a manner that will help them in a fight. If this guy wants an IMA butt kicking he should contact BlackTaoist... Maybe he will piecing palm you in the 3rd eye, and fully awaken you...

True though.

BT is one of the few who are actually teaching their art in a manner that builds conditioning of the body to use the techniques, as well as actively working to get it recognized in a tournament level.

How many Taiji instructers are there here? Stig and I? Anybody seen a good video of Taiji used in an actual fight or competitively where its recognizable as taiji?

Back when I frequented bullshido (about a year and a half ago) there were a couple threads dedicated to this. Mostly stuff from sanshou/sanda, finding people who studied tai chi, watching videos, and then finding techniques that actually looked like those used in the forms which were used in fights.

There were a couple of really surprisingly good quality fights and vids, as well as techniques. In the time I was there, a couple people tried to come in and slam tai chi, saying stuff like "it sucks" and things like that, and they pretty much got run out of all the threads- the veterans were like, "you don't know what you're talking about, tai chi doesn't suck in and of itself, you just gotta train right".

Of course, that raises the question- are they using IMA skills, or are they just strong, conditioned fighters that are using moves which look like tai chi? The bullshido guys don't really care- it's on video, and looks about the same.

But to an IMA practitioner, looks may not be good enough, so even the grounds for finding a suitable IMA practitioner to take this challenge would be pretty tough!

Others are correct in pointing out the dangers of practices such as these, especially in an uninformed way.

No, this is not some forms of "negative vibes", it's not just some psychological "holding you back" statement. It is a legitimate view of the pitfalls that exist in a path such as this, and if one is ever to succeed, one must know the dangers, and know how to avoid them. Knowing is half the battle.

The problem is not necessarily in the form itself, it's in the people and their mindset going into the form.

Many people living a "modern lifestyle" in a "developed country" just do not have the natural conditioning or intuitive awareness of healthy body alignments that people in the past, and in other lifestyles, possess. They don't know about opening the kwa, they don't know how to protect the knees and the ankles. There are people who are "healthy", and by the time they hit their mid 20's, have a bunch of knee and ankle problems because their exercise regiment did not address or protect those joints.

Not everyone has the knowledge of anatomy to know what is a natural alignment and what is an unnatural alignment. On top of that, they hear sayings like, "pain is impurities leaving your body", "pain is something you must work through to build strength and chi", and don't know that standing in a NEGATIVE alignment will only produce PROBLEMS.

Again, this is not about negative vibes or psychological tricks for success. This is a fact of the human body.

So, just a word of caution to someone about to get into these practices, especially someone who isn't that active, or who is not familiar with how to protect the joints (especially the method of doing so in meditation, qigong, and martial arts), take it slow. If you feel pain, STOP. Check the alignment. Check how the teacher is teaching, and check your own. Find other teachers and other styles, see how they do it. No, don't listen to crap about "jack of all trades, master of none", or "looking around at other styles will just lead you to neglect your own"- some teachers (who may or may not be legitimately connected to a lineage) really do think they are practicing the right way, and wind up with themselves, or students, having serious health problems.

And yes, this is from experience! One of my karate teachers thought he'd learn to incorporate some qigong practices into his karate to boost performance, didn't both to check where he learned it from, verify it with other sources, then him and others, who were practicing it the wrong way, wound up with some serious joint problems. They thought they got a "boost in strength", which lasted a couple of years, then their bodies literally broke!

So just be careful.

Have fun playing in traffic

As long as you don't emit vibes to attract cars, you'll be fine!

By looking both ways, you are subconsciously telling yourself that you'll get hit, thus, you will!

What would YOU do if you were in a situation such that fighting were unavoidable? What would YOU do if you saw someone being attacked, or otherwise physically victimized, and you lived in an area that SFJane described, where police response can take upwards of 20 mins?

 

Would you speak up? Would you step forward? Would you keep your head down? Would you yield?

 

Hello SZ,

 

In response to your question, I would do what I felt needed to be done at that time. I will not, however, learn martial arts under the assumption that I 'might' need to use it in the future. Even then, in the example you've provided, I think a handgun would be much more appropriate anyways.

 

Aaron

Do you have a handgun? How often do you carry it with you? To work? To the grocery store? In your car?

Will you actually be able to use it if you need to? Will you even be able to access it if you need to? Would you be able to justify its use, to yourself, to the law, to the friends and family of the "victim" (if you can't prove that it was a reasonable use of force, YOU are now the criminal, and they the victim) should you use it?

You don't want to learn martial arts under the assumption that you might need to use it, but then you turn around and use the existence of guns as a support for your argument?

No offense, but.... I don't think this is a very well thought out, or supportable position. The existence of guns does not automatically negate the usefulness of actually learning martial arts for practical application. And just because you learn martial arts to actually use them (keeping in mind that you could also be using them for spiritual cultivation, energetic cultivation, etc etc, and don't HAVE to use them for actual use) does not mean you are sending out negative vibes which will attract fights and other forms of violence to you, which will leave you stabbed and shot and lying in the gutter expelling your last breath.

Perhaps you could explain a bit more why learning martial arts for actual combat usage is not appropriate?

Hello people,

 

So essentially we assume they were, but have no proof to verify it with? See in my own experience with the Lao Tzu I have never felt that the Sages were martial artists. What I sense is that if I was going to compare them to anything it would probably be a philosopher.

 

In particular, there is no indication, or mention of martial prowess whatsoever, so I assume that they were not considered to be these things. I think this notion came about later on, as the influence of traditional Chinese practices began to influence religious Taoism. When they started to imply elements of the i-ching, traditional folk medicine, and other philosophies to the Tao, this allowed for a martial practice to form.

 

Just my own thoughts. Again any proof to the contrary would be greatly appreciated.

 

Aaron

Computers are also not mentioned in the Bible, so Christians hoping to follow in the footsteps of Christ would not be helped along with a computer, since there was no mention. Of course, since we can't go back in time and show the writers of the Bible a computer, we'd never be able to know beyond our own surmising, nor would we ever get proof to the contrary.

My point is that, even if you view the Tao Te Ching as philosophy, or the Bible as spiritual guidance, you can't just limit yourself to exactly what is written. Lao Tzu did not speak much of training martial arts, nor does he speak of cooks- does that mean one can't discover the tao through cooking? He doesn't mention comedians- does that mean a comedian cannot discover the tao through comedy? Does that mean they cannot apply the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching to either of their craft, just because Lao Tzu didn't write it? Does it mean a Christian, or for that matter, any follower of any religion/philosophy, can't discover a universal truth through their own microcosm?

I do not think so.

The notion of a philosopher sitting around and thinking is great. They give us good ideas, and give us much to think about. But if you really think the Tao Te Ching philosophy (or Christian religious views, or Buddhist views, or anything else) is really a universal truth, then the truth should be self evident EVERYWHERE. Lover, fighter, philosopher, artist, cook, comedian, actor, banker, etc etc etc etc. You don't need to say, "well it's not written in the Tao Te Ching/Bible/etc so we should not spend our times on something that isn't advocated".

It's a rather limiting approach, IMHO, to do so.