Sloppy Zhang

Anyway a lot of the benefits of NEW, couldn't be proved.

 

For example I can see auras and have uncontrolled clairvoyant visions after years of practice. You can't prove these things at all.

Auras? No.

Clairvoyant visions? Yes, yes you can. Well, as long as they are visions of things that correspond to the physical reality that most of us happen to share at the moment.

Subjective energy experiences, heaven realms, bliss realms, visions of deities- can't be proven.

Using non physical (as the term is presently defined) means of receiving information? (clairvoyance, OBE's to travel to other rooms and look at information, communicating with others in an OBE state and comparing notes)- that IS provable. You can match up your findings with that of the shared physical reality most of us inhabit, and verify what's taking place.

[edit]I, at least, have absolutely no problems with subjective experiences. People can believe whatever they want. They can believe they went to some alternate dimension and met with all kinds of great beings and did all sorts of things. Good for you.

But when people start making claims that they can do things which can be objectively verified, and that they can do them repeatedly? Well you just stepped out of the realm of subjectivity and belief, and have now entered the realm in which factual observation can determine the veracity of those claims. And if you want those claims to be in any way treated with any sort of legitimacy, they must be proven, just like everything else.

Of course, it's your prerogative to not prove them, and just do whatever you want.... but we're talking about how claims are legitimized within the society that we live in now. And if you want people to believe you, believe what you're doing, and accept as a reality the other modes of human perception and the other realms beyond what our five senses give us..... you gotta put something up!

You never will

Perhaps your psychic predictions should be put to better use.

Like making money.

Or if that's not your deal, just helping mankind by proving to the world that such things are possible.

I am just trying to make the point that relaxation is not the central thing in sports like it is for OBE.

And I'm trying to make the point that even conditioned, professional athletes rely on their ability to relax in order to perform effectively.

Even if they are in a giant stadium full of opposing fans who hate them and want them to eat dirt every pass, an NFL quarterback can still perform. If he tenses up, gets cramped, is short on the passes, he gets booted and replaced with someone who can perform.

So it's painful to see supporters of OBE's and psychic phenomena say, "well I can't perform in front of people or in a test because I have to be relaxed or it won't work." It's like, uh... how about you have some self confidence? How about you practice consistently and test yourself rigorously enough to know that what you're doing is real, and that you are going to do it regardless of whether there are people around, and regardless of whether they want you to fail!

If you (generic you, not you specifically) can't do that, maybe they should either train, or find someone else who can.

Because as of now, despite the nice words (even of Mr. Bruce), I haven't seen anybody step forward to actually prove that anything they say they are doing is actually happening. For all the talk of communicating with friends across the globe, visiting places they've never been, walking around their house and listening in on other peoples' conversations, you'd think SOMEONE would have verified this, and you'd think SOMEONE, at least ONE PERSON would have said, "hey, I can make a big change with this!"

So far all you ever hear someone say is, "I can do it, so I've proven it to myself, maybe you should prove it to yourself too one day!"

If relaxation was KEY to sports, everyone on the lucid dreaming forums who can OBE would be NFL quarterbacks.

Because everyone who can OBE can do so as often as an NFL quarterback can throw a successful touchdown pass?

If that's the case, why have no OBEers collected any money?

At least NFL quarterbacks can perform in front of an audience, even a hostile one!

Great stuff!

Go back and read that post again. You may be misinterpreting what I said.

What you said then:

I was barely grazing him but letting enough qi energy into the body shots so he could feel it. He ended up covering up in a ball saying "Ok, Ok, I give I give." He then got up and said "how did you do that?" I shrugged and said that I was just grazing him. He said "No, seriously, how did you do that? I've never seen anything like that. I couldn't do anything!" I said. "That is internal kung fu."

vs.

What you say now:

the first guy was overwhelmed by the speed. (I was training 4 hours a day back then) That's what stopped him, not the qi power. Because he was my friend, I did not use any real chi power in the strikes. I wanted him to know that I knew that I was much faster than he was.

Then:

He adopted a defensive posture and I tapped him very lightly on the forearm releasing some qi into his enormous forearm. His eyes welled up with tears, his face got very pale and he said, "no fair you hit a nerve center." I said, "yeah. I only gave you 5% energy. Wanna spar for real this time?"

vs.

now:

In the second example, I hit the guy,s forearm with my closed fist HARD. hard enough to let him know that in my style, there is no such thing as sparring. You either shoot to kill or you don't pull your gun. In that scenario I did use qi power and it did disable him.

Soooooo.... yeah, that's where I'm getting it.

I don't know about others. IME, many internal martial artists don't truly understand qi application. The old secretive guys do. If one can find one of those guys, you will see real speed, real power and real qi power also

It'd be nice to come across someone like that.

About damn time!

I'm sick of waiting around for 2012.

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns.

Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power.

 

Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

How would you describe the art that you described, which used qi to easily debilitate someone even with a few glancing blows? Internal because it was developed in China?

That is a lot different than some of the other internal martial arts, which, while they talk about being able to generate a lot of power very easily, don't mention much about shocking people in the ways you did.

You should explain what is your definition of ima.I have never belived in it and have no interest for it.But it has always been clear to me that empty power is the basic of internal art.and that internal art utilizes chi power,to make impact create fields around them copntrolling the opponent etc,with or without contact.Am i copletley wrong here,anybody?

You can read a bit about the origins of the classification of Wudang chuan and Neijia, as well as shaolion chuan other "external" arts on their respective pages. Basically, they were general classifications and in no way were the arts in those classifications set in stone. One person may cite only tai chi, bagua, and xingyi in "internal" arts. Others include arts like bajiquan, which have internal and external components. Though "shaolin" arts are typically considered "external" arts, even shaolin has meditative and energetic aspects, so the line gets blurry even then.

Some people prefer classifying according to an art's origins (as with shaolin and wudang), but a bit of research shows that arts sprung up all over the place- some arts, like tai chi, despite the legendary origin stories, cannot be traced (reliably) through history to wudang at all (in fact, Chen tai chi can be traced to the SHAOLIN TEMPLE!!!)

As with many labels, it seems their use was based on how convenient they were to the author at the time.

Even within the styles, varying levels of mysticism and capability are applied to the internal and "qi" aspects. Many people say that it is just high levels of sensitivity, relaxation, and coordination. I have heard a story of a member of the Yang family who had a bird perched on his finger, and the bird could not take off, because the man's sensitivity was so precise that he'd lower his finger just enough that the bird could not push off.

I've seen it retold in a different manner hundreds of times: that he used his qi to paralyze the bird.

As much as I'd like to believe in the qi aspect, the high level of sensitivity just makes more sense with observations.

Now you've got various other arts, like those 5ET described. They attribute a higher level of mysticism and power to the aspects of qi, and talk about being able to affect people by them. This leads into stuff like Mo Pai, qi blasters, empty force, and other things. Are they "internal"? Not in the sense that, at the time of internal arts definitions, they weren't popular. But with even a bit of research you see that the names were pretty much reflective of the author's opinions, and just happened to catch on, and through the years arts have debated over how much ground the terms cover.

IN SUMMATION:

Labels are stupid, and even members of the same aren't can't always agree what they are, or rank priorities differently.

I believe arts need to prove themselves. If you can paralyze well trained, experienced MMAists with qi, that shit needs to be proven. If you aren't willing to prove it, you know, that's your prerogative. So pass people on to someone else. If you aren't, again, that's your prerogative. Everyone has a right to privacy.....

Just.... don't go around telling your experiences that are so much more fantastic than everything else that's out there, and then turn it around on the people who are asking questions and giving them a hard time.

Except relaxation isn't the KEY component of sports, is it?

 

Relaxation IS the key component of OBE

Actually, yes, it is.

If you aren't relaxed, you tire yourself out very quickly.

If you aren't relaxed, you won't be able to perform certain acts which involve extending, or having smooth movements, as well as without.

Go join a training program for tennis, basketball, boxing, golfing, swimming, running, etc (it can even be a group class!) with any halfway decent trainer, and you will hear the same thing over and over: RELAX!

It's the key to bringing out your body's full potential, and it's the key to making sure you carry out the technique (whatever it is) with maximum efficiency. A tense, jerky movement will not go as well.

And from what I recall of Robert Bruce's writing, he says that just like falling asleep, you can OBE while not completely relaxed. It's just that relaxing really helps smooth out the process.

The way Robert Bruce relays it, OBE sounds like any other skill. So it'd be nice to hear from someone who's been developing it for a while and can reliably demonstrate it.

Those were not "ima artists". Those were practitioners of.... I dont even know what. Either some sort of Japanese kiai practice like its labelled as, or perhaps just people with cult followings who made things up.

 

IMA generally refers to the chinese fighting arts of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

5ET's description included qi transferring, qi attacking aspects, and things like that. A lot more than just those three go into the category if we go by 5ET's definition, and seeing as how his stories were what got this ball rolling, I'd say that's most likely what sykkelpump is referring to. As for me, I am including qi arts (including the qi transferal and qi "blasting") in my usage of the terms, to differentiate them from styles like MMA. In fact, depending on who you are asking, even those three internals do not include "magic" stuff like qi transferring attacks, but are instead highly developed martial arts that make use of the body's fully coordinated, relaxed body power.

lol,ok I didnt know.But that was the only ima artist I found who was willing to fight.

It is really amazing, because there ARE groups out there who are willing to do demos. Props to them for actually stepping up and willing to put their skills and name on the line. It's just too bad that they mostly wind up like these guys:

Not even close to how 5ET performed.

And seeing as how we only get stuff like the yellow bamboo guys,

It's no wonder people don't have a high acceptance for qi based martial arts, whether you believe you can shock people with it or not. ESPECIALLY when someone says that a qi transferring attack can incapacitated an MMA guy, as 5ET relates.

iS THIS ONE OF YOUR PICK?

 

Hey, I already posted that!

Find

Ok so the whole key to OBE is utter relaxation.

 

And thats the one thing you are lacking under test conditions.

 

Its like driving a car without wheels man.

Not if you've practiced....

Professional athletes are under stress all the time, but they managed to stay relaxed enough to perform their skill.

When I hear people say they can do something repeatably, that to me says they have reached a point where they have practiced enough that they have control over when they can do it, and they have trained under a variety of conditions and can still pull through, on top of having tested it themselves and verifying it to a reliable amount.

If that does not describe you, that's okay, it'd just be nice if there would be someone like that who could step up.

I doubt anyone except maybe Robert Bruce himself could do it under test conditions.

 

Do you know how utterly relaxed you have to be? Its hard to overemphasize how much relaxation is required.

 

I tried doing this for other people before. Its just not possible.

Practice? Learn to relax under different scenarios?

I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but saying like, "yeah, I can be psychic whenever I want on a daily basis, I just can't have anyone around, and I have to be alone in my room, and relaxed, and you can't test me or ask me questions about anything, because I just won't be relaxed" isn't.... you know.... very convincing.

Y'know... I don;t like where I have taken this thread... My apologies. I should have known better.

Y'know.... that doesn't help your case, nor does it help out anyone who is looking for legitimate styles that can do what you (and others) say they can do.

Especially with people like

I'm not trying to be a dick or goad you into some kind of confrontation... this is an honest question. There are a ton of IMAists who are full of FAIL. As a practitioner of something real, who is a real person you would recommend? If someone was looking to find a REAL practitioner/instructor, who would you recommend?

This kind of thing I do all the time. You notice something in another room, and yeah its like that in real life.

You know you can make a lot of money with that, right? Ever think about it? Improve our understanding of the human abilities? Test it under scientific procedures?

You can't use "instant travel"

 

If you tried that you would wind up in a mind made astral approximation of the destination.

 

Not the destination itself.

Hm, a bit contrary to other sources, but we'll run with this-

Even with that, you could set something up in another room, have someone write something or have something that is unique, that you have no knowledge of. Then in OBE you could move to that room, collect the information, then return.

Ever tried this?

Since you ask me what my point is.The point is that an internal martial artist will be beaten up like a clown every time against a good mma fighter.Actually,I belive ima will lose most normal streetfights also,because the belive in skills that are useless in real combat.Got it?

I really would like the chance to personally have an demo fight with an ima.

In most cases, I believe you are absolutely correct. IMO and IME there are very few well trained internal martial artists.

 

Can I pick the IMA fighter for you?

Who would you recommend, then, for such a match?

I can only OBE for a few minutes if that.

 

I don't even think Robert Bruce can OBE for more than a few minutes.

Yes, but a couple minutes is a long time, especially when (as I have heard) you can travel anywhere pretty damn quickly. From there you can obtain some objectively verifiable information, then return, and report.

I'm not sure how the access to psychic abilities work, so I'm not sure how the mechanisms with that, though, but I'm sure something can be set up to test.

Then what did it say before?

 

EDIT:

 

By the way, I can link to other forums where I have been talking about NEW for years.

 

go to AYP and do a search under my name

So what would we need to do to set up a demonstration? What kind of psychic abilities do you have access to? To what extent can you take your OBE's?

Soooooo then.... I've always wondered if anyone who's advanced in any of Robert Bruce's techniques (including the man himself) would ever put on a practical demonstration or act in a scientific study?

Whenever I see groups of people talking about easily and regularly accessing psychic abilities.... well, just like my views of martial arts, I think they should be tested.

I practiced it before I knew about meditation and real cultivation.YES he does share it,but he should keep this for himself

Why should he keep this for himself?

What do you practice now?

Robert Bruce's teachings come from his personal experience, as well as the experience of those he's known personally and worked with. It might not be an orthodox way of doing things, but explore his stuff for a while, and you start to come across things which he's named himself that are actually found in other methods (though you might also say that he just re-named stuff he took from other systems).

As far as "not real cultivation", well, his methods don't really start out as a spiritual practice. While you may develop into that or incorporate it into your own spiritual practice, his methods are very much a practical method of "how to do stuff".

If you don't think that "stuff" is important, don't do it.

But unlike many people who talk about "stuff" to garner attention, but then don't teach it because it's "not what real cultivation is really about", he actually DOES share his stuff. Whether you wish to seek validation for it or not is up to you.

Thanks for posting this!

I agree Sloppy,

 

But there's a distinct difference between paranoia and truth. If someone came up on the street and told me this stuff, I'd probably think they were crazy. It's the whole idea that the truth can't be that simple, that something can't just happen, there has to be a reason that makes sense to us, when the fact is most of the time very little seems to make sense. Accept the things you cannot change.

 

There's this saying that I paraphrase. I will strive to find serenity, so that I can accept those things I cannot change, change the things I can, and through wisdom know the difference. Every once in awhile I am able to do this and when it happens, life becomes much simpler and those things that I used to worry about, the conspiracies that seemed to occupy my time, simply fade away like so much dust.

 

My preference these days is to try to develop compassion, humility, and insight, and through them a deeper relationship with the world around me.

 

Aaron

 

When I suffer you suffer.

Conspiracies only exist in the mind. They are a waste of time IMHO when you could do something more useful.

 

All conspiracies share the same pattern: "official history is written like this, but did you know that this or that happened, and the government / etc. is denying it, and how do you explain the following: Apollo mission, 9/11, bla bla."

That the word "conspiracy" has even been brought up (and I knew it would, as it always does) means that there is already a bias AGAINST different sources of information.

Why do conflicting sources of information and accounts of history automatically mean "conspiracy"? The word has so many unsavory connotations in this society, that I prefer never to use it, and it's sad when it comes up, because it means that free discussion is already moving downhill. "Well it's a conspiracy so what am I supposed to say to that?"

How about we just stick to facts (or as close to possible as the facts). Saying, "well I can't change it" does not excuse the acts, nor does it make them go away, nor does it in any way help- in fact, it could lead to worse as those perpetrating the acts can do so without consequence.

If there are facts behind those that are popularly spread, they should be known, investigated, acknowledged, and acted upon.

Why would you think they were crazy if someone came up to you and presented something that challenged your own embedded view of history? Because it's a tough pill to swallow? How about we all listen to the point, and see if the facts make sense.

I'm willing to listen to Alfred E. as long as he puts up the facts and can put them together coherently. However, so far I've seen a lot of different historical accounts, but I don't know how he is choosing to string them together. If his story makes sense, I'll consider it. But so far I have no idea where he's going. Sure, I can infer something from my own thoughts, but that would just be me generating an opinion, then arguing about it. I'd rather hear his opinion in his own words.