Sloppy Zhang

Aight, look Mr. Steve/Mr. MPWay, I just figure I should point out some of the things that I've seen as an observer, but first of all, I'd like to mention a little bit about my background... Several years ago I was active in the martial arts community on youtube. And by that I really just mean I'd hang out, and see what videos other martial artists had up and talk about them with the poster and other members, giving opinions/critiques/etc. Every once in a while some guy would come on and say stuff like, "I don't know what u guyz r talkin about that guy waz week u r all noobs thinking ur better than u really r" So then we'd talk to that person and ask why he thought that way, things like that. Most of the answers we got were along those lines. "No that's not real martial arts." and "oh you think that guy is good/bad but you don't REALLY know what good/bad is. I haven't even studied for that long but I know what good/bad is I laugh when I hear ur commentz bcuz u gaiz dunno wut is really good/bad" (good or bad depending on the situation) So naturally we asked, "hey what style do you train in? What lineage? What teacher?" and naturally they would say things along the line of either "what r u gonna stalk me ur a gay stalker" or "you can't find him on youtube/google so I won't even bother." Those people would continue flaming and all that jazz and it was pretty obvious there were there to just slam some guys. Now some guys had some variations... like they would come in all hating and just slamming stuff, terrible grammar and punctuation, but then when a conversation would drag out they'd "clean up" their comments a bit, but all in all not say much. Why am I bringing this up? Well as an observer, I must say first off that I don't train in Mo Pai or any other lineage like that. I'm new to self cultivation and still have a lot to go even on the basics, so I don't think I am biased when I say that there are LOTS of similarities between your posts in this thread and the haters that you encounter on youtube. Several of your initial posts here seemed borderline inflammatory. You made rash generalizations, and even bordered on ridiculing people with statements such as "you guys who think you know qigong don't even know qigong" (kind of like the haters that said "you noobs dont kno wut reel MA is"...) Then when we ask for clarification on your training/lineage you are hesitant to give it, and only after several other posts in which a system has been outlined for you do you post where you are in that system that has been outlined for you... I must also add that I'm a college student, and while I enjoy studying things for the sake of learning, there are times when I don't have as much time to study something as I want, so I have to b/s some things. I don't want to brag... but with a good imagination/improvisation/acting skill I've gotten pretty good at it. I know stalling and fishing for info from the other person in order to construct a statement when I see it. And the way that you put off answering certain questions seems... fishy. On top of that, you repeatedly mention that you found your teacher through your own means, but in the same paragraphs you mention how you found your teacher through Mr. Chang... then go back to how it is all your work. Now I'm not calling you a liar, I'm going to be straight up with that. For all I know you've been on a path for a long time and have done lots of things so naturally you may refer to one thing and then refer to another, merely pointing out two separate points on your journey. But from an objective and unbiased standpoint, there are some things that raise suspicion, and I just thought that you should know what some of the observers might think.

Soooooooooooooooo...... What are some practices that a beginner can do to get started that aren't too dangerous? Pretty much what I do is zen meditation which I learned from my karate days, then some qigong related to tai chi (mostly simple stuff, mostly breathing/stretching like stuff, simple movement, learned it from Yang Jwing-Ming's book on Tai Chi 24 and 48 forms, as well as his book on Yang style Tai Chi), and the tai chi form itself, of course (though I few that more on martial arts terms and less with qi and energy work, even though I keep it in mind as well). I've been trying to get lotus position down when I meditate, and work on lotus position pretty much every day, though I can't always hold it for a long time So what's something else I can do in addition to all that?

Well, just throwing something else in that might be a general issue: Everyone keeps on talking about free speech and how we should have it but... there are limits to free speech. I have a right to publish a newspaper to say whatever I want, but if I say something that is slanderous then, well... that's not good. I have free speech to say what I want about myself, but if I were to say that I was a police officer, and people treated me different because of that... well that's kind of illegal! I technically have the free speech to say whatever I want about, say, some kind of contract, but if I get someone to sign that contract due to what I said to that person... hmm... I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there are laws about some of that stuff (slander, fraud, impersonations, etc etc). So, again, not saying anywhere HERE does that, but in general, if someone's speech has been proven to cause something that is harmful for another party, then some action needs to be taken. And I'm not very advanced, but there's some stuff that I know (improper kundalini work, for instance) can really mess a person up! Gotta watch out.

I know, really

I've been doing a lot of thinking on karma and the like. Not necessarily the same kind of stuff that was talked about in the OP story (which was a good story btw), but stuff in general, along with fate, free will, destiny, and all that good stuff.... Haven't really come to a conclusion, it's a lot to struggle with

I'm all for free speech I guess. Now as for keeping the "new people" and "inexperienced" safe... I mean sure, it'd be nice if everyone could trust everyone else. It'd be nice if there weren't so many con artists out there. I'm not saying that Li Jiong is a con artist, I'm just saying that just because you'd like to believe that you can trust someone doesn't mean you can. In light of that, the best thing that one can encourage a "new person" is to look around and do lots of background research and compare notes to other things. A lot of websites out there have lots of "basics" out there and stuff. And even though different masters may go off on different paths, a lot of them share different underlying elements. If there's a guy that sticks out suspiciously, that could raise some warning flags. I mean sure, I'm all for being an individual, not following the crowd, thinking outside the box, yadda yadda yadda but... I mean if you are a new person you need to learn to check to make sure you're not being fooled. So regardless of whether it may be perceived that Li Jiong is out to "prey on new people" (not saying that is what I think), new people should be looking around anyway and not always taking one person's word for truth... explore, learn, think, do your own stuff, and figure out what is for you. At least that's what I have been doing as a "new guy"

Now I've never done this myself before, but it's just something that popped into my head one day: has anybody tried meditating or cultivating or some kind of work in an area that is supposedly haunted? The only places I've ever really meditated where calm places. You know, somewhere quiet where everything felt in balance so that I could help clear myself and balance my own self. So what about meditation/cultivation/energy work/etc in a place that was not "balanced"? Whatever was the cause, a ghost, some kind of bad event that happened in the past, or anything else, for whatever reason has an imbalance of energy. Would meditating there allow you to detect where that imbalance of energy was? Would it reveal a "ghost"? And if you could pinpoint where the imbalance was, could you fix it? Just some thoughts, I don't have any plans to go meditating somewhere haunted any time soon,but just wondering what you guys might think on the subject

Interesting about the Web Bot predictions.... Do they factor in the web buzz about Miley Cyrus, Angelina Jolie, and Lindsey Lohan?

I agree that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and often they have some basis in fact. But that still doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to categorize someone according to a stereotype. If you are going to judge someone at all, at least judge someone by their own merit or lack thereof, instead of the merits and demerits of their age group.

I respectfully disagree. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you should find some 20 year olds in real life that are actually working hard in life rather than thinking that all the 20 year olds are like what you see on tv. After all, why speak on anything when you have no real experience with it? Yeah. We're out here. Young? Perhaps. Imature? I think not. There are mature and immature people in every age group. To categorize everyone in a particular age group according to your own (potentially) limited perspective is... not good... sure, there are people in their early 20's who are exceedingly irresponsible, but there are many people in their early 20's that are on the other end of the spectrum. There are middle aged people out there who act irresponsibly, even if they have a family! Just having a family, or being around long enough to have some kind of "experience", doesn't make you responsible, and just being young doesn't make you irresponsible. So just because you're not hearing about the responsible ones on tv/news/entertainment media doesn't mean we don't exist. No offense intended, it's just that words like that can be somewhat offensive

I for one am not trying to imply one person in particular, rather I am identifying the type of person for whom I hold a certain opinion... whether or not anyone here sees that they fit into a type, or whether or not someone attributes my words to another person here is entirely their issue I agree, those exact words have never been said. But what is the underlying message when someone says, "these are very high level teachings and I cannot just hand them out to anyone, that is why you must buy them." Um... well... I see a LOT of things wrong with that statement. First and foremost: not everyone who has the money to spend is necessarily deserving of instruction anyway! Just because someone has the extra $50, $100, or $200+ to give to you for the teaching doesn't mean that they're going to follow your teachings intently. That doesn't mean that they will take what they learn to heart and practice it constantly in their daily lives. That doesn't mean that they are any more dedicated than the guy who works all day to support his family and doesn't have that type of cash just lying around. Also, the dollar value of a teaching does not have any indicator of the quality of the message! I can just as easily go around charging money to learn the "secrets of the universe", then whenever someone asks me a question I can just paraphrase the Tao Te Ching and the Bible! If someone asks me why I charge, I can just as easily say, "I have to make sure you are dedicated" or "I just can't teach anybody." There's no correlation, in my eyes, between a SPIRITUAL teaching and PHYSICAL money. You cannot possibly stick a dollar value on just the right words said at the right time to the right person. And consumers cannot possibly think that they will receive an authentic message from an authentic teacher just because they are paying lots of money. Talk about apples and oranges! I agree that there are different types of payment, but like I said, the money type of payment that a lot of people ask for is very different from the spiritual teachings that they receive. Certainly words such as, "follow my teachings and live those teachings in every moment of your life" talk about payment. As payment for what you received you must act on it, as opposed to just going out and doing whatever you feel like doing, or whatever you used to do. But again, that payment is different than money payment which is different from spiritual teachings. It just can't compare.

Actually, it does. Not everyone who says they have something worth paying money for actually do. It's even worse when they say things like, "paying money shows that you are dedicated." Ugh. I'm not even going to describe how that makes me feel... it's pathetic, really, honestly. What amount of money is proper to charge depends on how the money is being used and where it is going. A little money can be going to a good place, or a lot of money can be going to a bad place. Again, it's up to you. If you think that you are getting returns that are greater than your investments and that you have found something that works, more power to you. But that doesn't mean that it's good to have an attitude of: "paying for a teaching shows respect" or "you can't just hand out teachings for free" or "people spend money on so many worthless things, why not spend money on worthwhile things?" or any of those. There are phony martial artists just as there are phony gurus that use those lines to keep people in payment plans. The people run on their hamster wheel and the teacher runs to the bank. So I will reiterate: if you've found a genuine teacher and you really think that you handing over money so that the teacher can pocket it is getting you somewhere, more power to you, but that doesn't mean everyone everywhere will get more quality teachings if they pay more quality cash.

Yeah, I used to kind of think that if you want something good you should be prepared to pay. You know, you get what you paid for. When I first started learning martial arts, I found several schools that were big, said they had good quality instruction, that they taught the skills necessary for self defense, yadda yadda yadda. I dished out hundreds of dollars because the cheapest payment plan they had was for a 6th month contract. It was going well. My 6 months were up. I paid for another 6 months. Shortly thereafter something happened, and something seriously bad almost happened to me. You know what saved me? The free stuff I found on the internet. You know what almost got my messed up? Yeah, the hundreds of dollars worth of martial arts teaching. I found another school that charged $30 a month to have enough to rent out a building, but taught effective techniques... after making the rounds through every high charging school in 3 cities. I view spiritual teachings in the same light as I view martial arts teachings: if you have something to teach that is genuine, and you have a genuine desire to help people, you're not going to charge. Maybe you'll get lucky and find something that really works for you even if it costs exorbitant amounts of money... but I've learned that you don't always get what you pay for. And, you know... the top dollar technique is not the best in quality. Also, you know what's VERY interesting... I've read stories about how students had to pay lots of money to learn from great martial artists, but you know what the funny thing was? They weren't paying all that money over the years to the TEACHERS, they were paying it for TRANSPORT. Bus fare, train fare, taxi fare, to and back from the teacher's residence over the course of years. Then that person turns around and is like, "I had to pay tons of money for my teacher to teach me, now you must pay me to teach you." Uh... yyyyyeeeaaaahhhhh... riiight... that's not really the same thing.... So, again, if you've found something that works for you, great... but for those of us who have been on the other side of the spectrum, someone can claim up and down that they can't just hand out secrets for free, that you need to pay money to "show your true devotion", but you know... well... I for one am not going to "buy into that" (hehe )

Not everybody here has a nice phone or an ipod... Again, one man's trash is another man's treasure. You can't always put a value on what others have, and you can't always judge how others value their own possessions. My friend loves computer programming and is quite good at it, so when I tried my hand at computer programming and put random things in random places, he just cringed every time he saw my programs... I didn't see anything wrong with them, sure they weren't the BEST, but at least they got the job done... sufficed to say he was aghast at how I had managed to "maul" the program So to someone who doesn't value material wealth, the loss of all the wealth in the world won't matter, just like someone who doesn't know much about computer programming will never understand the difference between one jargon term and the next I'm not on the boat of degrading teachers, or degrading people. I am on the boat of being critical and thinking about ideas (though not necessarily passing judgment just... talking about it...) I find it odd that one can speak about and "preach", if you will, about certain virtues and the need to do certain things, but then turn around and demand an opposite. There are plenty of ways of making money without having to resort to your spiritual teachings. It's kind of the same with martial arts... there are plenty of mainstream teachers out there with commercial schools that can't teach you how to fight your way out of a paper bag. But there are mainstream schools that teach you good techniques... at quite the hefty price. But there are also plenty of schools out there whose head teacher has a different full time job, and runs the school separately. They're not commercial, and don't charge exorbitant amounts of money... sometimes the money really only covers paying the rent/upkeep for the building that the school is in, and the teacher hardly pockets any of it. Those schools don't get by on a name. They get by on the legitimacy and efficiency of their teachings. Sure, they can teach the same effective techniques, charge hundreds of dollars for a 6 month to 1 year plan, and have a much bigger school but... they don't.... The price doesn't really affect what the teachings you get are but.. it's just something to think about when a teacher says, "I want to teach martial arts so everyone can defend themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, so people can live happy and safe lives with this martial art which is quite accessible to anyone", but then turns around and charges several hundred dollars for a 6th month contract that you must pay before he teaches you anything.... and it's the same kind of thing to think about with spirituality and cultivation. It's not that the techniques aren't necessarily ineffective (though one should always be on the lookout for frauds!), but it's... you know... what kind of person are you learning from? Though again, like I said in a previous post, the actions of the individual teacher won't necessarily affect the truth of what he's telling you, it's just something to think about...

I don't think it's right to ask for money or to charge for certain lessons. Now if people decide to support you and show thanks, that's fine. You didn't ask for it, but they decide to show you thanks, I think that's pretty legit... but it's not like the guy asked for it or demanded payment, and of course it should be accepted with humility and the like. But seriously, if people want to know something that I know, I tell them. I'm not a master. I'm not a guru. I'm not an immortal. If somebody needs help I'll help them. If I'm really so great and wise and all knowing, I can find a way to make some quick cash without having to exploit people who are on a spiritual journey. Goes 10x for the real masters out there. If they have such a fine grasp of the world's workings and humanity, they can definitely get what they need to support themselves without having to say, "the spiritual road is hard and to show your willingness you must pay 49.95 USD for an hour and a half session..." As for free online resources: they're great. The truth is out there. People have been speaking the truth for ages. But KNOWING the truth and ACTING the truth are two different things. I can sit here and talk about virtue and humility and I'd be perfectly correct in my speech, but then I turn around and... I dunno... smoke something. But my smoking something or my not having actually become enlightened doesn't mean that someone else can't follow the messages of my words and find something worthwhile in their lives. The Buddha had lots of teachers. Maybe some were more enlightened than others, but each one helped him gain a new step and a new understanding. Ultimately it is up to the INDIVIDUAL and NOT how far along the teacher is. Now as for the Buddha's "payment"... him sacrificing his riches can be see as "payment" and saying that spiritual is "not free", but that's YOUR perspective on looking at it. "One man's trash is another man's treasure." The Buddha gave up something he thought was unimportant. He really couldn't care less. Spirituality was more important, so it didn't matter that he had less clothes to wear and less food to eat. Reaching enlightenment was more important. Just like an athlete who enjoys running and runs all the time, a non-athlete may say, "oh but running is so hard and is not fun at all that guy is giving up hours of his time that he could spend doing stuff that I do like watching tv!" But the athlete doesn't look at it that way. You're making the error of imposing YOUR perspective on someone else. So just something to think about...

It's hard to find a good instructor for many TMA. I took karate for a while when I was younger, and even in karate there are TONS of teachers who do not know proper application. They teach the forms, but not how to apply them correctly. When they do get down to actual fighting, it just becomes more similar to boxing or kickboxing, no actual karate. The same with many other styles and, more importantly, with taiji. Taiji is hard enough as it is to be proficient in martial applications while at the same time adhering to all the proper principles. Not to mention the heavy emphasis put on health. So I'd say the chances of finding a teacher that actually knows what they are talking about is... um... well it's quite hard to find one, IMHO Then there's a teacher that can actually put it into practice, beyond just push hands or the occasional demonstration. I feel really bad because taiji seems to be very powerful and very effective, and there are lots of stories of masters that could do some awesome stuff but... there aren't many people who truly know it and teach it.

There are professional athletes who are in excellent shape, even the "best shape of their lives". Just look at Billy Blanks. He's still going strong, and he's at least 50 (don't remember his exact age...) Perhaps qi gong and spiritual alchemy could help, or maybe you might be better off looking for something else. No matter what you find though, I don't think there's anything that's a "quick fix".

That's a cool bit from Hunter X Hunter I haven't seen much of that series, but it seems kind of interesting... And as long as we're pointing out series, the manga/anime Shaman King is quite good and talks about some interesting topics that may resonate/inspire a different viewpoint.

Everybody else has said it pretty well I for one am part of the "young crowd", and I guess yeah, sleeping around and drinking and partying looks kinda fun but you know... I don't know, when you cultivate, you start to see what will help you and what will not. Gaining experience and doing lots of things will help you, but forgetting who you are and possibly getting into some major trouble will not. It depends on who you are and what the situations around you are, it's not the same for everyone. For me, from what I have seen and what I have experienced thus far, the reward is not worth the cost. But again, for others it might be. But what cat said applies to me: I feel clean energy and I feel uninhibited, but in a good way. I'm not getting wasted or anything, but that doesn't mean I quit socializing Socializing has actually gotten quite easier. There are a lot of boundaries and barriers that people set for themselves, be it in work or, in this realm of discussion, socializing. They think things like, "oh no, I couldn't possibly talk to that person..." or "oh no, I couldn't possibly go there with that person..." but you know... there's no barrier. When you let go of things like that and start seeing it for what it is, you can just act. Other people may think you are becoming bold, more outgoing, or maybe even eccentric as you are breaking "social norms" but who cares? One really funny story from my high school days was I went to class, it was the first class of the day and quite early, and everyone was standing outside the classroom in the hallway because the door was closed. I asked, "is the teacher not here yet?" And they were like, "well the door's closed so I guess we can't go in." The teacher (who showed up right behind me) went and opened the door and was like, "it's not locked guys... wait, have you all been standing out here thinking it was locked!?" So the moral of the story is check to make sure doors are locked, and that goes with anything. And that's what I've found with cultivation: you realize that there aren't a lot of locked doors in the world, and for the doors that are locked, you already have the key. Other people are left standing in the hall, but you get in the room first to grab the best seat! (in high school it would be the desk that wasn't squeaky!)

There's a lot of Japanese manga/anime series out there that definitely has some interesting connections to martial arts and other forms of self cultivation. Sure it's a little bit blown out of proportion for the sake of cool fight sequences, but it's still nice to see

I was raised Catholic, so if push REALLY comes to shove, I know quite a few ways of using orthodox religious logic to support non-orthodox religious points, not to mention I know enough about history to do the same, so if it was a long flight with a really pushy person I might do it but... 9 times out of 10 when someone says something along the line of, "any type of X practices is devil worship I'm 100% convinced of it." Then I'll either say "that's certainly a well known view point." and just leave it at that, or if I'm feeling mildly curious ask, "if you used to do it yourself how did you realize it was evil?" Chances are they'll be itching to save another soul, so they won't hesitate to give you this big long story about how they were so evil and apart from God, but when they realized the error of their ways they made the conversion and are now so much happier with their lives (all the while making parallels to your own life and implying that you should do the same), after which you respond with, "wow, that's an amazing story, certainly something I'll have to think over, thanks." Then you kinda leave it. They're happy because they saved a soul by getting you to doubt your ways, and you're happy because they're not being pushy about it. If they are, then just keep repeating things like, "you certainly have a lot to evidence." or something like that. The sad thing is that there is a LOT in the Bible that speaks against saying things like what that doctor was saying, first and foremost the famous phrase of "judge not let ye be judged yourself" (or at least something to that effect, we've all heard that! ) From the orthodox viewpoint God knows everyone and no one is exempt from judgment, so people don't need to judge, and the very fact that a very "devout" follower is sitting there condemning people tells quite a bit about them.

I know lots of people who say, "everything happens for a reason." Or, "there is no such thing as coincidence." Sure those tend toward absolutes but... well in day to day life, it's quite common for people to say, "wow, what a coincidence." You know, talking to a friend about someone else, suddenly that friend pops up and you're like, "wow, what a coincidence!" But where do you draw the line between coincidence and... something more? This is just something that I've noticed happening to me lately. Maybe it's always been this way, or maybe I'm just paying more attention to it than usual, but here's a story of what I'm talking about: I'm standing in line at a very busy lunch place one day. This place is packed, shoulder to shoulder. I'm standing in line, been there for 10 mins waiting, so by now I'm fairly bored and looking around. Far in the distance, through a mass of bobbing and weaving heads, I see this girl getting some food elsewhere. For a moment I imagine what it would be like if I were to, say, strike up a conversation with this girl. I wonder what her personality might be like, what he voice might be like, you know... typical "fantasy" land stuff, but seeing as how I was STILL stuck in line, I went back to wondering when I was going to get food. All in all, the thoughts about this girl who I had never met and will never meet again lasted about 6 seconds max. So 5 minutes later I get my food, and walk over to get a drink. I'm filling up my cup, when this hand taps me on the shoulder. I figure it might be one of my friends who I went there with, but I turn around and it is... that girl. She's asking me where to get cups for the drinks and I'm like... well, I guess you can say I'm thinking, "wow, what a coincidence!" Well she gets her cup and moves on. I finally got my food and move on. But you know, of all the dozens and dozens of people packed shoulder to shoulder, this random person, who (thinking back) should have already left, seeing as how I was in line waiting for food while she was getting hers, somehow managed to remain in there for an extra 10 minutes for me to get my food, then for me to get a drink, so she can get a drink and not know where the cups are and... Well, it just seems that it's a bit against the odds And like I said, this isn't really an isolated incident, not recently anyway, which is why I was wondering what you guys thought of "coincidence".

Lately I've started thinking about something similar... as in it is more of a false dichotomy that we ourselves have created. Am I fated to go left? But I have a choice... if I wanted to I could choose to go right... but then I would have been fated to make that choice. I think about that and move to go left, but realize that I was fated to think that I was fated to do that!!! It can get pretty crazy. But then you let go of the concepts of predestination and choice. Does it matter how the choice was made, because in the end you wind up going in a certain direction and have to deal with what that path holds. When we made the idea of decision making, we then invented the idea of having decisions made for us, but if we let go of one or both of those ideals, and just act, in whatever way that may be, things happen and life goes on... Not an idea I've perfected, but just something that I've been mulling over the past couple of weeks.

Yuen Fen, that's the word! I had heard it a couple years ago, but couldn't remember what it was, I did remember what it meant though... thanks for the reminder

Haha, well guys, I was definitely hoping to get something just a liiiiiitle bit more elevated out of the coincidence thing, and I really only told that story as an example to get the idea of what I was thinking about... you know, that a coincidence is SO coincidental it is TOO coincidental..... I mean it's not like the only reason you run into a girl is to get her number (or maybe you do, I dunno, I'm just not that kind of guy) But as long as it's been brought up... You know I mentioned that it wasn't an isolated experience (the coincidences), well over the past couple of days I guess I have been taking your advice without thinking, and somehow I got invited to a Chinese karaoke night this weekend and... I don't even speak Chinese It sounds fun and I'm looking forward to it, but I just thought I'd let you guys know what's going on.