Sloppy Zhang

By work I meant if it takes several people to introduce new facts to finish a story, the marketing doesn't do a good job. Good marketing presents what the product is in an aesthetically appealing way, but it also gives a factual account of the information. Part of the challenge of marketing is how can you market your product in an interesting way without resorting to using misdirection on the customer or leaving out certain details to make your story more "snazzy". If you have to resort to such methods.... that's not a very good job of marketing, and slightly dishonest. When I want to be entertained, I'll listen to a story teller. But when I want to find out how to use a new application on my computer, I don't want to hear about the genius minds that forged the program deep in the sacred mountain of fire, imbuing the program with the forces of the five elements and harmonizing the cosmic forces of yin and yang, I want to hear the facts, step by step, cut, dried, and USEFUL, for how to run my program. And if I'm interested in buying the program, as much as I think it's cool that it is perfectly yin/yang balanced and can harmonize peacefully with the five elements and energizes my chi channels, it's also good to know how it will integrate with the programs I already have. Let's not assume that just because someone writes a computer manual that they are a boring person. If you are hoping to be entertained by a computer manual, you will be disappointed.... but that's not because the manual was boring. If your computer was broken and you couldn't get any work done but you found a solution in the manual, I'm sure you'd be overjoyed. So..... yeah. Here's an example of what I meant: on the website it mentions stuff like Max studied with a Chinese master from the age of six. I was like, wow, okay, that's really cool. But then I saw he wasn't Chinese, so I was like, "well.... was he half Chinese? I mean was he in China? How does a six year old meet a Chinese grandmaster in China?" Someone on THIS forum actually had those same questions. It took someone ELSE to come in and say, "oh, well see the master had fled China and met Max elsewhere...." and all that good stuff (but even then I've still heard some varying details). No, it's not the marketing job to give all the details, but it IS the marketing's job to inform people and not give the wrong impressions. Unfortunately, the impression a lot of people get is somehow a six year old white kid tracked down a Chinese grandmaster and started cultivation! There's nothing wrong with saying, "the young Max met a master who had sense fled from China" or something like that. It's not that hard, but the fact that it's not being done sends up red flags. And if Kunlun is truly as great as everyone is saying, then I'll say it again, it's being unnecessarily held back by poor marketing and poor communication. No, you don't have to make it so cut and dry that it's just a list of dates and events, but you do have to accurately present your stuff, at least if you want people to trust you enough to see what it's all about.

If it truly is a case of the marketing turning people off, rather than the practice, then might I suggest a radical change in marketing? Going around saying, "secrets of the ancient masters that no one will receive even with a lifetime of practice... all held by one westerner!" and "secrets of the ancient kunlun mountains, taught to him by secret masters deep in the heart of.... hawaii" only serve to... hm... I dunno, caution people. I'm experienced enough to know you can't really judge something unless you experience it, which is why I'm not making a judgment about the Kunlun practice. However, I've experienced the marketing. My interest was piqued in Kunlun and I read the website. It looked cool. Then I did some more research on the background (I was roped in my karate McDojo's when I was younger... so now I check up on people) and frankly I was shocked by the amount of clarification needed on certain topics, topics that shouldn't require so much clarification. That shocked me, and served as a warning sign. I was more than ready to get the Kunlun level 1 book, but then hearing conflicting info, retelling stuff, different stories all over the place, then finally one big master story with all these different things it just... I dunno, it seemed like too much work for something so simple. And I guarantee you that other people who go through that much work (and reading) to get a story that is STILL shaky are going to be less interested in checking the system out. A good system shouldn't be crippled by confusing marketing.

Interesting thoughts everyone, thanks! I kind of figured that much, but "surrender" doesn't sit well with me, too many negative connotations. I'm fine with "letting go".... it's just the word choice that I wasn't really drawn to. Then again, maybe I'm spiritually paranoid! I don't want to surrender myself to someone so I can become their spiritual zombie tree robot! (that's a joke! I don't want to mistakenly add more fuel to this fiery debate that's gone on for... a long time!)

I've never really gotten into this Kunlun conversation. I had heard of Kunlun a bit in other places, but when I first came here and saw how many Kunlun people there were, I did some more research. I've also gone back and read a lot (maybe not all.... but a LOT) of old threads all the way through on that stuff. My initial impressions from reading the Kunlun website and other accounts was that this Max guy was pretty badass, you know, learning all this high level stuff, studying traditions from deep in mountains and stuff like that, and journeying to monasteries. Then I get a little more into and find out names of teachers and they're like... living in Hawaii... I was like.... huh? (not ALL of them but you know who I'm referring to) But then I read posts like Cameron's that mention Max naming some of his teachers and not others. Well.... I guess that's okay. And even though I had the impression that Max had journeyed to some far out places.... it never actually SAID that he traveled deep into the heart of China to find a Wudang master... okay, well, that's true... but the paragraph still gave that impression so.... you know, on the one hand, it's my fault for "misreading", but on the other hand, it's kind of sneaky that a paragraph can give that impression, and you can SPECIFICALLY write something to give a certain impression while not technically having to lie about it. Not saying that's what it does.... but I myself can write persuasively and create certain impressions from time to time, so I know it can be done. The other thing that kind of.... I dunno, draws my interest, is when it is said that Max knows many many high level secrets and is willing to share. And I'm thinking, well that's awesome. Then in the same paragraph one says that even if someone spends a lifetime with these masters, even if they are related and not "foreign" they STILL probably wouldn't give the same secrets..... wait... huh? Max has them even though you spend a lifetime with one teacher and STILL don't get them but Max has.... all that many? Well then those teachers saw something in Max, that it was his destiny, karmic fate, a certain incarnation of a past person, etc. Okay, well that explains that. And then finally, reading some of the descriptions, I don't like how there's the emphasis on "surrendering". On the kunlunbliss website it gave the option to read the forward of the Level 1 book I believe it was, and it said several times like, "you need to surrender to the energy". I'm okay with "relaxing" and "letting things flow"... but "surrender"? Hm..... I don't know. Furthermore, they say that Max helps you become "re-enlightened", because you already were enlightened you just forgot. Okay, that's neat. Then they turn around and say with the transmission Max plants the seed and you learn how to help that seed grow. But wait... wouldn't that seed become Max's tree if he planted it? Sure, it's in you... but Max still put it there in the first place. It would be more precise if, say, I dunno.... you said "you used to be enlightened, but that tree died and left behind a seed, but you forgot where that seed was buried, Max helps you find it and lets you cultivate the seed for the new tree of enlightenment." Or something like that. As it stands now.... it sounds like Max is giving you something and you are cultivating something that is Max's but it is in you. I'm not making a judgment one way or the other, I'm just saying what I have seen so far and my thoughts about it. Paragraphs on kunlun related websites and books give certain impressions on people, and it's not just me because others have asked questions about it, and it's taken people like Cameron to come in and clear up the details. Well... shouldn't an "about Max" page.... be more clear in its writing? Yes, I guess it pays to read every single specific word and analyze it, but.... if you are just reading over the website for general info (as I did the first time), it gives LOTS of incorrect impressions to people, impressions that need to be "clarified" by another source, and then it requires re-reading a couple times..... But IMHO I don't think you should HAVE to read a "general info" page several times and have it clarified by someone on the forum for you to get the facts. That sounds like shady advertising and getting you to get a product that's different than what you think.

Well in some places I've read, they said that one ways to have an OBE is to start flying in a lucid dream, then fly up and up and up as high as you can go. So that to me sounds like lucid dreams are mostly you in your mind, but you can leave if you want. Set up a sign for yourself to kinda give you that "'ahh I m dreaming" message. What works for me is that as I go to "sleep" I'm aware that I am in bed, so if I find myself somewhere other than in bed it clicks " I m in bed, this isnt my bed so I must be dreaming" Another thing is to keep a journal of your dreams (or if you have good dream recall, you might not need this) and to familiarize yourself with common elements in your dreams. Like maybe buildings take on a physically impossible shape, you are unable to move when you want (or need) to, etc. As you notice these, the next time it happens you can use that as a hint, thinking, "oh yeah, I always have trouble walking in my dreams.... hey!"

Well there are different levels to lucidity. In the basic levels you mostly go, "huh, this is a dream, let's walk over here...." and that's as much as you do. In others you can fly, move about, and manifest different things in front of you. Sufficed to say, the level in which you are totally aware and can manifest anything takes quite a bit of awareness and practice, and that's also the level in which (I would suppose) you are most successful in spiritual practice. Like some websites are just like, "once you go lucid, ask to meet your guide" or something like that, claiming that you should start to come in contact with various things almost immediately. Same with meeting aspects of your personality, like maybe you have a phobia, you can confront and overcome that in a dream. The three times I've tried, I didn't get anything (at least nowhere near advertised results). Doing some more digging and talking to some people on other specialized forums, the general consensus is that even if you can GET lucid, that doesn't mean you are totally aware, there are still large parts of your unconscious that is still in control, and a lot of things that prevent you from reaching any sort of higher level accomplishment, so it takes practice to get to a higher degree of lucidity before you start anything. So some places suggest that you meditate once you become lucid, so you train to increase your awareness in the "dream world", so you can gain more control, so your subconscious still doesn't have that hold over you, and you can work through mental blocks and stuff like that. Sufficed to say, one of the next things on my to do list is basically, before jumping into anything "too advanced", to just try and keep more awareness and control in general. But I was wondering if anyone else had any experience/tips they'd like to share.

As others have said, and as emo sounding as it may be, hope is just something that redirects your focus from here to now. You can hope as much as you want for something, but that puts your awareness of things into the future. Furthermore, your hope MAY turn into desire, because when your hope doesn't happen, well.... it's just another chain in the link of chains holding you back, right? Then again, I think it is possible to set your own self to achieve a goal. Maybe you started out as "hoping" for that goal.... but you didn't end there. And I think that's the point. If you "transmute", in a sense, that hope into an action you take, you can create a very real result.

The thing is that, the more I've studied and practiced and thought, the more I've noticed that certain principles are universal. The same principles a martial artist uses are going to be the same principles that a cultivator uses, which is gonna be the same as what a carpenter uses or something. It starts simple, you learn and it becomes complicated, then you get everything sorted and it's all so simple. One thing that I don't think BL realized with JKD is that he really didn't invent anything new. He kept on saying things like "form of no form, style of no style", but look in classical martial arts and you have "earth, water, fire, wind, VOID" where void is the absence of any certain strategy, but from that void is birthed any number of strategies. Even in non Japanese martial arts, in anything, the highest skill is going to be able to do any movement without thought or preparation, truly "something out of nothing", acting as the situation requires, "form of no form." This can be applied to ANYTHING, even look at how a professional video game player plays, he/she memorizes where all the weapons will be, knows which ones to use in the right situation, and acts accordingly to whatever happens, even if their "plan" is ruined. So let the n00b pwning begin. The thing about the New Age movement may be the same as JKD. They think by drawing different aspects of other traditions they will create something new... but maybe they're just going to wind up finding the same thing? Either way, the end point will be the same, they will reach the same destination. Maybe one way or the other will be better for certain people, maybe one or the other might be more dangerous? Who knows.

Only general stuff, nothing too specific. Like masks used to take on a certain persona or character when in a ritual. sometimes you cease to be you and you ARE the person represented by the mask until you remove it. Or maybe you wear the mask to hide from some sort of power you think might harm you. Or maybe you use it to intimidate a supernatural force. or something some such.

hooray! (okay that's two)

There's a very good textbook called Genki. Look it up, find it, buy it. You can also get the workbook for practice. I think there's a CD set as well along with it. But it's Genki, a course in Elementary Japanese or something like that, there are two volumes, Genki I and Genki II. VERY good books. They are the books that I got when I started learning back in high school. AWESOME. I got to college and found out they used those textbooks too for the first and second year of language lessons. So it's respectable. VERY good, has relevant vocab, relevant conversations, it mentions how speakers may speak when in a casual conversation, how the grammar changes accordingly. Then for intermediate level, there's Introduction to Intermediate Japanese by Nobuko MIzutani published by Boninsha. Don't get this book though unless you've gone through Genki I and II. Though to be honest, you might be able to do without it. Only thing this textbook really does is introduce a lot more conversational stuff, and specific vocabulary (it talks about stuff like garbage collection, electrician jobs, you know, random stuff). Though in all honesty, if you just learn Genki I and II, and watch anime and LEARN from it, you will be fine in every day conversations should you ever go. And what I mean by learn anime, I mean by listen and pay attention to what they are saying. If you don't know what they are saying, like, vocab or new grammar structure, the subtitles will tell you what it means. As you hear it, you wind up learning it and you can learn a lot from anime. Genki I and II+ anime approach left me in good condition when I exchanged to Japan for the summer back when I was in high school. Though I should also say I had a Japanese teacher and I practiced conversation a lot with my friends too.... so that's why I recommended the Genki audio CD's as well, for extra practice in hearing what the lessons tell you. Genki also teaches a lot of kanji, so you're good in that department. Also, don't give up! Languages are hard to learn for people who don't want to learn, kind of like how some people take spanish all through high school and college but can't speak a lick when they graduate. I picked up conversational Japanese in two years of regular high school education, 45 mins a day. I know a guy who was a year long exchange student in Japan, knew no Japanese when he showed up, but was conversationally fluent in a month and a half. Necessity, desire to learn, constant practice, and a love for the language can really create some impressive results. Don't be discouraged by people who say you can't do it, or that it will be too hard. I guess objectively it will be "hard", but if you love doing it then it won't seem hard AT ALL. It didn't seem hard for me.

Nothing wrong with the New Age movement per se..... A lot of people involved in it though are in it just to be in a fad or something. Not to say there aren't serious people involved with it, not to say they can't make something of themselves. As has been mentioned, it can be a good starting part. And like others have said, there are a lot of different traditions that are kind of mixed in, maybe not everything given the proper space and time as it needs. But with any system, I say be honest with YOURSELF, that's the biggest part. If you're in some group mixing traditions and stuff like that, don't just do one ritual, then do the next, then the next, then the next unless you KNOW that you have learned the first one WELL. Be honest about the experiences you have. Did you really DO something? Or do you just THINK you did? Or did someone ELSE tell you something was supposed to happen? The problem with lots of traditions is that people aren't honest with themselves, get off track, but talk themselves into thinking something. It just happens a lot with New Agers....

Yeah, training your body is really overlooked in a lot of self defense stuff. Sure you can know a few techniques, but have you got them drilled into your memory? Will you have the stamina to use them? Maybe you get attacked right as you get out of the gym or something, are you going to be fit enough to go one more round? Maybe you have an encounter as you are trying to carry groceries into your apartment, will you be able to react appropriately? Maybe things won't go as planned and you have to wrestle him around a bit, are you strong enough to handle that? So I'm with the sports guys on this one, you gotta maintain your shape and factor that into your training.

Hey seminarian, I think this article explains what you're going through in the part "tempest in a tea kettle" : http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/HLDangerMain.htm From what I understand, sexual practices are for advanced people who already have a strong foundation, as in breathing, done some energy work, have open and healthy channels, know how to circulate energy, know how to relax and let things flow, know how to balance energy, grounding out, etc etc. From what I understand it takes years of knowing how to do that, and doing it well, before you can safely go on with those exercises. But I've experimented here and there, and I think I might know what you're talking about. One night, for about two hours, I stimulated but without ejaculation. As I approached the point I would stop stimulation, breathe, relax, and let everything subside, then I'd start up again. Anyway, I decided to just leave it like that, took a shower then went to bed. That night I could hardly sleep at all! My whole body was heated up, I was tossing and turning. I didn't really have a sexual need/frustration, it was that my whole body in general was really hot. It was even a cold night, but under a minimal amount of covers and blankets I STILL felt too hot. Next morning I ejaculated, got all the heat and pent up energy out of my system. That night I was calm and cool, same with all the following nights. Haven't really done anything like that sense then. Direct experience (for me) has shown that unaroused sexual energy is much easier to deal with than aroused sexual energy. You always hear that but sometimes you have to verify things for yourself. I don't think basic stuff like that does much harm, it's repeated use and abuse of that practice. If you have trouble with overheating energy and trouble sleeping and trouble doing things, that's a sign that you aren't ready to do it and you should seriously back off. Get your hands off yourself and calm down. I lean towards the "everything in moderation" way of doing things. Don't arouse yourself and focus on the foundations and building up your energy. If you have an overwhelming sexual desire, so much so that it is VERY distracting, it might not be such a bad idea to get that out of the way then move on. As you get more practice you get better at it. That's what used to happen to me. I'd be able to abstain for a week, or two weeks, and then just let myself go and really beat myself up over it. But then I was like, "it's no big deal, I just need to relax and listen to what my body needs. If I NEED to release something, that's good, but otherwise I'll try and keep everything contained". And so far that approach has worked well. You can conserve your vital energy by just not arousing any sexual energy as well ya know The more you fight against something the harder it will become to win. The more you fight the urge to not get aroused, the more thought you will put into it and the more it will happen. But once you accept it and think it's perfectly okay and then move on with your life, it won't be such a big deal anymore and you can move on to better and safer things. Once you get more experienced, maybe try another time... or maybe you won't even want to by then.

Okay so a couple days ago I posted a thread about good books on daoist meditation/practice. A few books by B.K. Frantzis came up, and those are all good and interesting. But one thing that comes up with Frantzis a lot is that he teaches a "water method" which is supposedly different from the "fire method" that a lot of other things seem to tall under. Now there also seem to be a lot of stuff out there by Mantak Chia, but I've heard some mixed reviews and stuff about him, what he teaches, safe/dangerous, effective/ineffective, yadda yadda. I don't know how much discussion has gone on here about him in the past, so I will just ask a straight forward question: what do you think of Mantak Chia and what he teaches? Is it good? Safe? Effective? I think I should also include the fact that right now I am not in a position to find/travel to meet a teacher. Through karate I've been exposed to zen meditation (like zazen), and I keep that up, but to be honest that's really the extent of what I have been practicing. I'd like to take on some practices in addition to that, and expand into energy work and stuff, of which I am pretty much a beginner. So Frantzis' stuff seems really nice and good, heard lots of good stuff about him. But Mantak Chia also comes up a lot, and some people have put what he teaches on kind of the "opposite end of the spectrum" in more of the "fire category", but then it's been brought up that he teaches kan and li, but then people say that's totally different from what "water method" that Frantzis is associated with, and it all gets really confusing for someone not caught up in the politics and who's who and what's what so.... I need your help guys! (and as a side note, has anyone heard of a practice called 18 Buddha Hands? What it is/where it came from/effectiveness? I figured as long as I was asking questions I might as well ask this one too... sorry! ) And then I've also heard of John Chang, who I've seen brought up a lot, but I've never gotten the full story on him, so could someone please fill me in on him as well? (I know a lot of questions... I've had these for a while and I've been looking around on my own a bit, but I figure it's best to hear things "right from the taobums' mouths" )

Well yeah that's because you jinx it when you talk about it

Thanks for the book recommendations! Also, thanks for the link to the other website.

Hey thanks for that evaluation I've been looking for an assessment that was as good as that, seriously, thanks! Thanks Little1. He's got a lot of stuff out there though, and I think that one of the issues is that people don't do it in order. I'm not an expert, but this is just some of the stuff I've seen on like book reviews and stuff. They mention that he writes a lot about certain things in one book, but doesn't write about them in an advanced book. I think maaaaaybe it's because the advanced books kind of assume you know the basics but I guess that's too much of a stretch for most people So where does one begin with Chia's material?

I really don't think it has to do with style. Royce Gracie succeeded because he was a good individual. He used his style, his skill, and his experience to do the techniques that worked best for him and he was able to consistently with. A lot of people saw that success and hopped on the BJJ bandwagon, then BJJ guys started to lose. Was it because of BJJ's inherent weaknesses? Well giving a cursory look at the style, it does appear to have some weaknesses... does this just mean that no one knew how to exploit Royce's weaknesses until just now? I don't think so. A good fighter knows how to change and adapt, how to minimize their weaknesses and maximize their strengths. A good fighter can come from most any style (assuming that style is, say, relatively complete, as in it teaches all different types of fighting or at least addresses how to defend in situations). The problem is that when people see a good fighter they don't see the fighter, they see the LABEL "oh he's BJJ" "oh he's MT" "oh he's collegiate wrestling" It's not about the style. I think that an increase in BJJ loss PROVES it's not the style. Royce Gracie was BJJ and he won a lot, even against wrestlers. Now all these other guys are BJJ and they don't win a lot. Well both are BJJ so we can eliminate BJJ from the list of potential reasons for success/failure. I mean look at a guy like Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Sure, not everyone likes the Bujinkan, and everybody is all like, "oh well there's no video evidence just stories blah blah blah", but I mean really let's grow up and not be so petty. He was successful but did not come from the "mainstream good arts" you see today. Then look at Mas Oyama. Heck, as long as we're talking about it, let's look at Lyoto Machida. I have to say he's my favorite fighter, he strikes where he can, pulls back where there's not an open shot. Everyone likes to call him a coward and whatnot, but it's about fighting smart. All of the fighters I've listed had great records but they all come from different styles. You have hundreds or thousands of people from the same style that do NOT reach that level of fame and success in fighting. So it's not the style. It's not about the "best MA fluxing with yin and yang", it's about the best INDIVIDUAL fighter understanding certain unchanging principles, such as yin and yang. Even in a fight you can see it. Look at Lyoto Machida again, at once attacking, at once retreating, heck that's even starting to sound like Taijiquan. But that's also from Art of War, that's also from the Book of Five Rings, even Bruce Lee talks about this stuff. All of the serious martial arts (like I said in my earlier post, the ones really meant for REAL fighting) talk about fighting principles. Those principles DO NOT CHANGE. They are like Yin and Yang, the names change but what they are do not. It's so much more than the whole Yin/Yang dynamic, but you get the point.

Because the vast majority of the "artists" who enter the octagan haven't appropriately learned their art to begin with. Watch these videos real quick for a nice discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAf8lPKDcOQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGARwAle9VM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zB4ypgemEQ The problem is that people train, but when they get into a real fight they are unable to properly express their art. If you can't do that, might as well just train in haymakers and double leg takedowns. It's one of the reasons why I left my commercial karate dojo. We learned all these karate forms and techniques, but then when we sparred it was just kickboxing and boxing and stuff. I was like, if I want to learn that I can go someplace 100x better than here so... yeah. I like TMA and stuff, it can be super effective, as long as you train it effectively under someone who can use it effectively.

Oh boy, you have no idea Research doesn't bother me, doesn't matter how long, I enjoy it! And don't worry, I'm finding new ways to flex my mind every single day. So just tell me what I need to do and I am there! 谢谢

Well the "best martial art" depends on what you want. I personally want a martial art that can help me with a fight but that can also help me become a better person.... For winning fights, I'd say go with some Krav Maga or some fighting system like that. Ninjutsu is also good (duh ) taught by Masaaki Hatsumi that gives both developmental philosophy and... well, ninjutsu. Though there are people who don't like Bujinkan for whatever reasons, etc... ya know. Then there's taijiquan, which is a really effective martial art... it's just that not a lot of people these days can use it in actual fighting... which is sad because that's what it was developed for but IMHO a true master of taijiquan would be the best Can't say that I think TKD is good, karate can be good depending on who your teacher is. There are two things that go into making a martial art "good" in my opinion 1) the teacher 2) the student. You see take an art like karate, I did karate for years, between the ages of 9 and 16. I practiced hard every day, did everything I was supposed to. Then one day some guy walks in the door, gets his yellow belt or whatever, and first day sparring spars me... and he kicks my ass. His friend joins two months later and I spar him and he kicks my ass AGAIN. Yes, it was a sparring match. But I was physically shaken. If that were a real fight I would have been KILLED. I've dumped years of my life learning an art that could get me KILLED? I dropped karate like it was hot. Anyway, moved on to other stuff, but always was wondering why karate sucked so bad. I did some research. Karate doesn't actually suck so bad, in fact it was created to be a complete martial art and was made at a time when your life was on the line in a fight. The problem? People learn part of a system, then made a school before completing the full curriculum, they didn't know all the form applications, then they taught people who learned even less of the system, opened a school, and within three or four generations you've got people who CAN'T FIGHT teaching karate.... 20 years later I come along and ya know the rest. Secrecy + student ignorance can ruin a style within a few (or even one!) generations. It's sad. That's why you have to have an instructor that KNOWS the system and can teach it effectively. The student, on the other hand, has to have the devotion. A good student with a bad teacher could end up losing their life. And all the subsequent pairings of good/bad student/teacher. All that being said, find a martial art that is "complete" (handles all aspects of fighting, punch, kick, grapple, wrestling, manipulation, long range short range medium range ground, etc etc) and find a teacher that knows what they are doing, study hard, and you will be good. TaeKwonDo (since it's been brought up in the thread) I don't think is a complete system (ESPECIALLY the main styles you see... some offshoot schools teach good stuff, but then it's not really TKD...) on top of that, it was a relatively recent creation and... yeah I dunno, there are better Korean arts out there. I am sorry but I have to disagree with everything you just said. Some of the best schools I've been to have a monthly tuition of like, $50, and that's to rent out the building they practice in. They "hook" their students because the students know what they are learning is 100% real and effective and get them to. Yeah, they give free trial classes, and if you want to train for a month, you pay for one month. If you want to keep coming back, they won't ask you for money till the next month. My karate school was one of those contract schools. I was a young kid who really wanted to learn karate, 'cause I thought it had it all: philosophy, self defense techniques, all that good stuff. 9, 12, and two year contracts at the school. I paid my 9 months, got to mid-rank. Paid for another 9 months. One month into the second 9 month contract period is when I got my butt handed to me in a sparring session. You know, I figure, what the heck, it was just me... then it happened again. Then I started asking the teachers questions, "what would you do in this situation, what about this, what about that?" No satisfactory answers. They tell you you can't learn MA from books and instructional DVD's... well I went and got martial arts books and DVD's. One was the Tao of Jeet Kun Do by Bruce Lee, and the other was a self defense DVD from Stephen K. Hayes. There are people who have issues with one or both of these people. But let me tell you something: I learned more in one weekend of reviewing those materials about fighting than I learned in years of karate study at schools that had those contracts and stuff. I had months to go on my contract and hundreds of dollars already invested but I walked right out that door. I was 16 and all along I thought I had been learning effective stuff... but no way. I found a Wing Chun and that stuff was like a giant breath of fresh air. And guess what? No contracts! That place ALWAYS had 30-40 people in there training 5 or 6 times a week, no contracts. They kept people because that stuff was effective. If you need to motivate people by taking their cash... I don't know, there's nothing civil I can say to that, so I won't say anything about it. The best way to "keep your customers" is to give them what they want. PERIOD.

I dunno, I'd say it's just a liiiiiitle bit more serious than a book or movie (then again, those Harry Potter and Twilight fans can get pretty life or death on you ) I mean when someone comes in saying, "I have this practice that is true and is powerful" or even someone ELSE coming in and saying, "so-and-so has a practice that is true and powerful" I mean that in and of itself is a powerful statement and requires some scrutiny. I mean I think people should remain open mindedly cautious, if that makes any sense. I mean be open to the possibility that this can be really real, but also be open to the possibility that you've just been sucked into a scam. (I'm NOT saying that Kunlun is a scam, of course) I haven't met Max or read any of the books, but like I said, there's a lot from what I've read on the website and from what I've read of other practitioners that's in Kunlun that can also be found in other systems. So even if you are doing a certain practice and Kunlun isn't your thing, maybe Kunlun shares a bit more than you think or know about. Then again, I did find the background history of Max to be just a liiiiiitle bit sketchy.... If only I were so privileged to have begun training with such high level masters when I was at the tender age of six! Maybe I'd be somewhere interesting right now as well

Well when I first came to these forums I was kind of surprised that everyone had been so into Kunlun. I had seen it brought up a few times on other forums, but I didn't do much research into it and it didn't seem that... I dunno, that real or serious, just something that was kind of modern, and seeing the website, really commercial. But then when everyone here was so into I was like... "whoa now" so I went back through the older threads and read all about kunlun and the stuff that's been going on here, been doing research on the kunlun website and other sources. All fairly interesting stuff. One thing that I noticed personally about a lot of the things that Kunlun mentions is not really teaching you anything you don't already know, but allowing you to rediscover things by clearing away the blockages that you have (in a general sense). That to me sounded a lot like, I dunno, kind of zen like (from what I've heard/read in a few places) about clearing out things that hold you back and help you discover your own "Buddha nature", so I guess in one sense, from my point of view, Kunlun doesn't really progress anywhere new. Also, from my perspective, and from what I've heard, the direct transmission from Max is a big jumpstarter. Which I guess is fine and dandy, if you're into that. I'm kind of a... I dunno, I tend to be a do it yourself kind of guy. If I really already know all this stuff, then it's just a matter of me doing it, and I should be able to do it whether I get a jump start or not so, ya know I guess that's just that. Plus I live a long way away from all the seminars and things like that anyway, and don't have a reliable means of transportation, so it's not a big deal anyhow I'd rather put in the extra effort and discover myself on my own. I appreciate that there's that jump start out there, and that it's available, but I'm cool (plus I don't have the extra $300 + travel expenses x_x)