erdweir

I would agree with what others have said - It sounds a lot like a Pre-Out of Body experience.

 

You can still experience the vibrations without paralysis though, and you can experience it before the POP that accompanies projection out of body.

Thanks for the replies guys. I found the experience pleasant, quite nice actually. None of the fear and disorientation reported above, but I havent left my body yet. Any advice on how to handle it when it does happen? and does everybody think this is a pre OBE or is there another explanation?

Good Idea

I have actually been thinking about this too, but I was thinking more along the lines of how we needed a Taoist Wiki. The Taobums is great, there is allot of knowledge here, but what if we organized it, compiled it and made it really accessible? Made articles about teachers, schools, traditions, concepts, practices, books, history, etc. perhaps I am dreaming, but there is software for creating your own Wiki out there. We just have to decide to do it.

Please understand that I don't represent anyone. I am not at all qualified to talk about that stuff. I'd just confuse us both if I tried. Total slacker noob here.

Darebak, It does't matter if you are a slacker and a noob, and you dont have to represent anyone but yourself. I slack off too, and I am no expert on any of this, but we come here to share our experiences and knowledge. Perhaps you could just tell your story? Maybe you are afraid that some people will criticize and judge you, but I wont... I just want to hear what you have to say.

UltimateFist I recall having an experience much like those you have described. In fact, you described it pretty much exactly. My condolences on your struggles. I remember after a particularly satisfying 1 hr meditation, I smoked a fat bowl of chronic and passed out on my couch, only to later awake (if that's the proper word?) every muscle seemingly paralyzed but at the same time coursing with (hardened?) energy, my spine was erecting/straightening involuntarily and I heard a jumble of noises, while I can remember gasping/inhaling desperate for air, but most disturbingly I believe that I saw either a dark entity or was just something else; a silhouette like dark form seemingly imprinted on my wall (or so I perceived) I could make out what looked like a wing span, but the entire experience only lasted for about 6-10 seconds. . can anyone make any sense of this? :/

Thanks for the reply.

I didnt feel any paralysis, in fact, i shifted around in my bed every few minutes while it was happening. I did feel energy coming up my spine, both in streams and bubbles. the rest of your experience sounds unfamiliar to me. The type of energy i describe was not hardened, but i know it's had to describe this shit in normal language. at no time did i leave my body, I felt more like something was coming in to my body rather than me leaving it

I took a seminar last year with one of David's senior students. I paid a completely reasonable fee. At the seminar we learned a couple of entry level practices.

 

Well...

 

...it just so happens that they work.

The basic results listed in the course description clearly become proof with practice. And you know all this drama dissolves in the face of proof however minor.

I would be interested in hearing a detailed account of what practices you learned, which teacher you went to, and what they did for you. And do you think these practices are widespread or does David have something special here?

BTW, my interest is genuine, I am not trying to draw you out so I can criticize you. I would genuinely like to hear about it.

Was there a loud buzzing sound accompanying the energetic sensations? If so you were most likely experiencing the beginning stages of an OBE.

No loud buzzing. I take it you mean an Out of Body Experience?

Yeah, used to happen to me alot, and yes very close to whats reported during OBE like Fizix said. I hated it because it happened like every night to me, and pretty much it was either that or lucid dreaming, at first it was kind of cool, but after a while, you just get sick of it, for some reason it seems to drain alot of spiritual energy from you when this happens. Don't worry, but I would do some more reading about this, and learn to control it. If you get paralyzed which I am sure will happen if this continues remember this, Do not try and get up with your body ie your muscle movement, this will only make the pressure worse, get up with your mind, think yourself up, I know it sounds weird but this is how it's done trust me, I have had probably close to a thousand of these experiences, which as far as I know is the most anyones ever had, even the people that write the books that are supposed to tell you how to have them. I remember reading these books and they said that they've had like two or three hundred of these experiences. I had them nonstop like everyday, for nearly four years. So when I say a thousand I am positive that is a safe underestimate. Use your mind to move, ok? And you will be able to float up through the pressure. This pressure can be scary at first, because it can feel like it's hard to breathe, just relax, also you will likely hear and see disturbing things in the transition state, entities, spirits, and old tale tells of the hag that sits on your chest. Have no fear, they can't really hurt you. Your lucky in a way, I had no one at all to relate this to when it happened to me, I wasn't sure if I was going crazy or what. But feel free to send me an e-mail if it gets worse and you need more specific advice, you will of course need to be more specific about whats happening to you, but I feel confident it will be nothing I haven't dealt with before.

Take Care

So, you think I am in for some really weird shit huh? Sounds interesting. Can you tell me more about how it started for you? How can you be so sure that this is what's happening to me? I am not trying to be skeptical, I just would like to hear more details to help me make sense of it.

Can can you suggest any specific reading? books or websites? I know I can just google it but it sounds like you have read allot of this stuff, maybe you could make a good suggestion.

Thanks for the reply

Last night I went to bed here in Berlin about midnight. About a quarter to two, I woke up, got up for a minute, and went back to bed. I was almost asleep again when i felt the air in the room pop, like some pressure suddenly shifted. Then the pipes made a loud knocking noise three times in rapid succession (the heat was off and they never do this). I felt like something was knocking at the door, but not the door to the room, the door to this reality. All of a sudden this energy started coursing though my body. It didn't feel like either the hot yang or cold yin I have gotten from meditating. It had all of these pale tinted colors in it, and made psychedelic patterns in my minds eye. It was intense, but didn't hurt or feel uncomfortable like strong chi can. It felt kind of fuzzy and crystalline, and vibrating much faster than anything I have felt before. If my mind wandered away from it, the sensation weakened, but it came back if my mind went back to it. it didn't feel like my intension was driving it, it was more like I had the choice to accept it or not. It went on for an hour or so before I passed out.

I am not sure if I called this to me or not, but i think I must have in some way. I have been trying to connect to my higher self in my own way and have made some contact, but it is a distant relationship at this point. I tried to invoke it last night before i went to bed, so maybe it worked but there was some time delay? Or maybe I got some of Vajrasattva's healing broadcast? I had planned to tune in, but he does it at 11pm miami time, which is about five in the morning here, and I dont get up that early...

I am sure allot of you have had experiences like this, I would be interested in hearing about them, so feel free to share if you are so inclined.

 

 

Prices are as follow ( and can and will change without prior notice) 45.000 euro for Jiang. 24.000 for Liping.

 

 

Ouch

it isn't like i feel the need to correct you.

here, i'm the one that jumps of his seat everytime someone starts yapping mantak chia this, mantak chia that, yikkady yakkady

 

i owe much to his teachings, i think it's only fair.

and i don't do it everytime. most of the time i preffer letting them yapp their yapp

 

sorry, i can't always be serious

You dont have to be serious, do whatever you want...

People talk about these things, we are trying to figure it our here together. I am not saying all that Mantak Chia is all bad, nor Michael Winn or David Veresi, etc. I am happy i discovered Mantak Chia's books but I find them confusing and lacking in some ways. Even though I find them flawed, they introduced me to this world, and helped me too, so I am grateful nonetheless. My reservations are just from my point of view of course, but I have my reasons. The ethical issues of publishing untried methods should be taken seriously.

As far as yapping, I agree with you. This controversy doesn't show the best of everybody. On the other hand, people need to talk. I appreciate being able to hear everyone's thoughts, even if they arent always expressed in the most balanced way.

Oh no

Kan and Li, as taught by Master Chia, needs specific environment to practice, that is, Darkroom.

The Darkroom in Tao Garden has been completed quite a fiew years ago, and since then Master Chia is often practicing and teaching the higher Kan and Li formulas. Michael Winn talked about it before this happened.

I'm still not sure how and why does Mr. Winn consider practicing Kan and Li outside the Darkroom environment, but I'm sure I'll find out more in the future.

 

Jumping to conclusions based on scarce information is not a good attitude, and won't lead you very far.

ok, if you are telling the truth, I stand corrected, but I am hardly jumping to conclusions.

Winn says this in the Healing Tao Forum, and weren't the Kan and Li books published before the darkness retreat was built a few years ago? The books carry the date of 2002. This spat started four years later, in 2006, and that is when Winn admits Chia never practiced Kan and LI, and that he(Winn) had to learn it form some disembodied immortals.

But what exactly is Winn's 'stuff' if by his own admition Chia was not taught high level stuff..it was just 'described' to him. And chia stopped his training at 19 vs 13..whatever..so he in turn, turns right around and repackages it. Blind leading blind, no?

My impression of all of these guys is that they are floundering around, talking to ghosts in the end, and still have nothing to show but rants on the internet and incomplete training, yet they want to lead people and say the other guy is wrong.

T

I agree, I was shocked that Winn actually admitted that Chia had never even practiced Kan and Li. It's no surprise that Sean has criticisms of a system that is really untested at the high levels and has such great claims too. But good for Winn for being honest about it at least. Still trying to defend it after that is a bit confusing though.. neither of them comes across as being all that balanced in my opinion, And neither of them really answers all of the other's points. It confirms allot of my suspicions and raises some new ones.

It's the sorts of difficulties that erdweir is mentioning that begs the solution of harmonizing the energy in the lower jiao before raising it. Usually this is done by opening the front channel first and bringing higher energies down into the lower -> as a result the lower fills and harmonizes, then rises in a kind way.

 

~ later edit ~

And the difficulties mentioned are just the beginning with that approach. If you start from the lower and just rise, usually the lower never gets around to being harmonized. Over time this leads to stubborn bound-up tension in the lower jiao, difficult to resolve and a source of all kinds of trouble.

excuse me for being a total bonehead, but what is the Lower Jiao? And could you elaborate on the harmonizing you are talking about.

I just noticed you are the guy who has the AlcTao website. Good site! Thanks for putting it out there. I Agree with your opinion that the Healing Tao is missing a few things. Especially some stillness meditation and stretching. I have been thinking recently that you should do that first, before the MO. Would you agree?

Daozhen,

 

most Daoists in China now are vegetarian only because the Government sort of placed Quanzhen Daoism above all other schools, when Daoism was resurrected with China's opening in the late 70ies (early 80ies).

Actually only a minor part of Daoists, traditionally, are strictly vegetarian while most of them eat *everything* thou according to some rules ~ so for instance they are vegetarian in certain period of the year or following certain specific practices.

 

Daoism in Wudang follow the national trend so of course the monastic order Quanzhen, together with its derivatives and mainly the Lungmen sect, are the most popular nowadays.

 

When China opened its doors the Government decided to categorize all daoist schools under two orders: Quanzhen and Zhengyi ~ so in fact most of the daoists were made to 'follow' rules and regulation they did not belong to.

Moreover, the Central Government realized that Quanzhen - being monastic and 'quiet' in nature - would be easier to handle so priority was given to Quanzhen and derivatives.

Those who did not agree with the policy have been practicing in private ever since, so you won't find them at any temple, daoist 'meetings' etc. All others have accepted the policy so most of them had to "re-organize" their Daoist life in accordance to the new regulations. I am not saying here this is necessarily a bad or negative thing, of course, as historically speaking studying with various masters under different schools in one's daoist life was the norm. The difference, however, is that this time it was not a real personal choice

 

YM

YMWong, how would you describe the difference between the Quanzhen Daoists and those practicing in private? What is it that the private ones are doing that the government doesn't approve of? Of course there is the meat eating being discussed here but then meat isn't illegal in China. I have read that they don't approve of Shen practices or sexual cultivation. I am more skeptical about the Shen reports, because I can find descriptions of mentioning Shen on websites based in China. On the other hand no websites I have seen for internal alchemy in China describe sexual cultivation. Is there something about this China considers hard to handle or is it something else? You mention quiet, but what are you contrasting it to? Also, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that the Dragon Gate sect was the most widespread. Would you dispute this or would you classify this as a derivative of the Quanzhen sect? Thank you.

Excuse me for posting offtopic, but how did you heat up the chi to start with?

It's not off topic, its part of doing the MO.. no excuse needed

I just followed the instructions in Mantak Chia's Awaken the Healing Energy of the Tao, which just says to focus your attention of you navel. Navel gazing indeed! He recommends 15 minutes of this twice a day. after a few days, I could feel some warmth, after a week it was very intense. after two weeks it started to have a life of it's own. How long it takes and how intense it gets is supposed to vary in the person. Check out the book for complete instructions, also his other book Awaken the Healing Energy of the Tao has more instructions and complementary practices I wish I had known about in the beginning.. like the spinal breathing which he puts in the index, which should really be in the beginning, as it helps loosen up blockages in the spine. I had major blockages and charging right in didn't end up being that pleasant for me. running strong chi up against a major blockage is pretty nasty.

he said... the orbit was actually the last thing, representing the final blend of yin and yang, to happen after you got all your five elements harmonised and all that.

 

Naturally enough, I asked why the bloody hell, that being the case, it was taught at the very beginning.

 

And he kind of said because it was just handy and connected things. I paraphrase, obviously, long time ago.

 

So it may well be that what we think of as the orbit, if we're talking about having a bit of a nice ongoing flow, may be but a pale ghost of what other people mean by it.

I like the sound of this.

When I first tried to do it all i got was this cold little stream that looked like mercury to me. I didn't think anything was happening so i put it aside.

later, when i had a better (but still not quite right) idea of how to proceed, I spent weeks warming up chi in the navel before i tried to move it. It was hot and intense enough to hurt a little. when you get it that present it doesn't weaken when your attention wavers. moving chi this strong isnt easy when you are going through a channel that is used to just a cold trickle. I should have worked up to it gradually instead of going in all gung ho all at once. It gave me a big scare when I got to this block in my spine, which i could have avoided, but I just didnt realize it at the time.

now that i am doing the five element fusions, i am getting these weird red segmented worms bubbling up my spine once in a while. dont know what to think about that yet, but it just seems to be another layer.

a few times, just a few, i did it strong enough and long enough to change my consciousness. I am still not sure exactly how i did it, but i feel like even this was just a pale foreshadowing of what is to come. It probably gets very intense.

I live here in Wudang, and have been coming to this mountain for about 5 years now.

Dao Zhen, how is it there? I have been thinking about making the trip lately. have you lived at any of these monasteries? Are you practicing any particular sects meditations? If so, why did you settle on that one over the others? Who is your teacher, if you dont mind me asking? Can you give some account of the differences between the sects? How expensive is it to go on a retreat there? Have you been to any other areas in china that offer internal alchemy training? Like Mt. Huashan?

Sorry for the flood of questions, but I would appreciate hearing about your experience more. I feel like I have to go make the plunge sometime in the next year, but dont know where to go exactly. I got into this stuff from Mantak Chia's books, like allot of other people, but I don't really trust something about the healing tao system and organization. maybe it's the weird stem cell machines on his website, or the 24 year old woman he just knocked up, or the prominent published student who lost his mind, the flakey teachers i have met, etc. So I have been poking around on the web looking for retreats but most of the Wudang websites I have found are martial arts oriented, and I am more interested in the internal alchemy.

Thanks. I have enjoyed reading your posts.

there are various ways to get the orbit going, i dont think any particular one is correct.

Mantak Chia seems to be in the minority as far as synchronizing the breath goes, he says it is not important, where as most writers who use the method of directing the chi by intention stress this.

Filling up the Dantien is another method, this is a little less intention based, but still uses the mind to fill the Dantien but not start the orbit.

I have read that Internal Martial arts like Tai Chi and Bagua will open up your orbit as a by product of their movements, maybe moving QiGong forms work this way as well. This is the least intention based, the chi is supposed to start moving on its own after doing the movements for a while.

Most of the internal alchemy people seem to use the intention based method but not all of them. There are probably more methods than just these three, and various combinations and hybrid methods.

I have been orbiting for about a year. I learned from Chia's books. There are other names for it, like the small heavenly cycle, which just sounds like an alternate translation of the same thing. Anybody know the Chinese?

Charles Luk's book places allot of importance in it, as does Yang Jwing Mings Books. It's very widespread in all of the Chinese Neidan practices as far as i know. I Read somewhere in an article about western internal alchemy (yes, it does exist) that in Europe it was known as the golden ring.

What i noticed about it was that I had too much energy stuck in my head, and was too one sidedly intellectual and rational, much like western society in general. when i started doing this, allot of my internal conflicts quieted, and I got allot better at seeing through other people's emotional disturbances instead of being confused and offended by them. I got allot better at dealing with my own too.

One time when I did the orbit for two hours i ended up with some kind of heightened awareness where i could see people's emotional problems and body problems as one thing, and it was really disturbing. I was out on the street in san francisco and i felt like i was surrounded by madmen. maybe part of it was my own distorted perspective but i dont think so. it felt too real. Kind of like being on acid but without the confusion or side effects.

I have orbited so fast that i can hear a sound in my head like a helicopter blade. I have had various snakes and worms crawl up my back, etc.

I think if you try to go straight for the real serious Kan and Li stuff without doing all of the preliminaries like the MO, you could be in for a real nightmare, the proverbial "Dark Night of the Soul". Allot of the Taoist techniques are there to spare you this, and other things like the kind of Kundalini torture Gopi Krisha describes. work form a solid foundation.

One of my favorite films, seen it many times, on the big screen in the castro theatre in SF. I actually met Jodrowsky at a screening in seattle, he gave a talk, it was great fun. Read El Topo, the book of the film, for his views in print.

Holy Mountain is based on Mount Analogue: A Novel of Symbolically Authentic Non-Euclidean Adventures in Mountain Climbing a surrealist novel writen by Rene Daumal, a member of the french para-surrealist art group the Grand Jeu

here is an excerpt:

Mountain Climbing

Daumal was a disciple of Gurdjieff, and Jodorowsky was influenced by him as well.

I love Paul Laffoley, man he is out there! he gives lectures for ten hours straight on time travel, higher dimensions, all kinds of madness. But Tom Otterness? He treated my friend who worked for him like shit..

Ever hear of David Altmejd?

Or Birch Hayes? (Myself)

check out my website for more goodies

http://www.birchhayes.com/index.html

There is a page about Qigong and Aids here DaMo Qigong I dont know anything about these people, I just found the page poking around on the internet.

What they are recommending is pretty serious, six hours of practice a day, total stillness, careful attention to diet, herbs, etc. They also say you should keep taking the drugs you would be getting form a western doctor, which is prudent, I suppose, but it makes you wonder.

Do you know anything about the Wudang Deutschland school here in Berlin? Or Ismet Himmet, the main teacher there? supposedly he trained on Wudang for years. I was thinking about going in for some lessons there...

erdweir is confusing UG with Jiddu.

oh am i?

yes you are right, i just checked it..

Good, thoughtful reflective answers, and good for you for opening up on a sensitive topic. I dont know what to recommend to you now though, the foreskin thing sounds rough, and performance anxiety is nasty. maybe read up on some taoist sexual practices? there are answers. If you are involved in such heavy therapy, do you really need more answers though? maybe what you need is patience... loading yourself up with more therapy when you are doing allot already might be pushing it. and maybe try to forgive your father, for whatever he did. believe me I know how hard that can be, I am still working on it myself, but try to put it behind you. just work on it, it takes time, and maybe the therapy will help with that too, it's all connected

Cool, what kind of qigong did you do - and for how long per day?

I was just doing the introductory Healing Tao stuff, microcosmic orbit, six healing sounds, and inner smile, together with grounding and so forth. My hair loss what brought on by heartbreak. I had been in a succession of ruinous relationships with fantastically beautiful younger women. Every time I got my guts stomped out by these vixens, I would fall into a depression and I would get more grey hairs and my hairline would thin a bit more. doing the Tao basics from Chia's books stabilized my emotions, stopped the grief and my hair thanked me. I was doing the meditations for at least two hours a day.

also drinking, eating sugar and caffeine made my hair fall out. From the western perspective I would say i have a weak pancreas since all of those things mess with your blood sugar level and insulin is produced in the Isles of Langerhans inside the pancreas. My grandfather was also diabetic. Excess blood sugar leads to excess testosterone leads to excess skin oils leads to too much bacteria on the scalp leads to hair loss.