CosmoGeek

Great post, lotusbud. Laziness is my biggest issue, and I think what you wrote may help me. I'll put some things into practice starting right now.

Jakara,

I enjoyed your post. You explain very eloquently why the "red flags" go off.

Hundun,

What you wrote is interesting. Are you suggesting that Max's followers intentionally made Kunlun appear to be bogus? Perhaps to screen out people with well-developed reasoning skills?

Only one objection -- that's cultural, not personal. Watching a baby coming out has been taboo for men in all cultures since the dawn of time and till it was introduced here-now for reasons I don't want to go into so as not to start swearing. All healthy animals hide in a dark, quiet place in order to give birth. We the domesticated ones don't know better because we ourselves weren't born the right way.

 

The doctor who delivered my twins was a woman, but she was the wrong kind -- screaming, pushy, bossy, noisy, meddling... all kinds of wrong. And she didn't let me squat, which is something my body was begging me to do. Well, at least there were no drugs of any kind, epidurals, all that deadening horror. It was, of course, extremely painful, but the beauty of feeling it instead of not feeling it is, once it's over, it's gone -- only an hour later, I could retrieve no memory of the pain, it was nowhere in me anymore, even though I went through it fully conscious. "Felt" means processed, processed means released. "Not felt" means unprocessed, unprocessed means stuck. Anyway... Giving a natural birth to my son and daughter changed me on the spot into someone whom I instantly found way, way more interesting than who I was before. I've done many practices since, but nothing has ever come close.

 

I don't think the numbed-out women hooked to IVs quite know what the process is about. I mean, they do get the child at the other end of the unfeeling ordeal, but they don't get to learn much about their bodies, their bodyminds, or any of the things that a woman can't really learn any other way. No practice is as closely monitored by tao herself, as guided by her, as embraced by her as this one. This takes you right where tao's at, causes you to merge with her and know her mind.

I hear ya. My wife went for the no-drug midwife approach for the last couple of kids, and that was a much better experience for her than the drugged up M.D. approach. As for doing it alone and in the dark... I don't know... Childbirth is very tough on human females compared to other mammals. They typically can use some help in getting the babies out!

Anyway, I agree that it seems natural that the child delivery process be "womens' work." But in the old times, the midwife and her helpers would be very familiar to the mother (probably living in the same small village, etc.). These days, it is probably better for the mother to have a supportive husband present than to be completely surrounded by strangers while giving birth.

A woman giving birth is truly amazing. You are lucky to be female and have had the experience!

Sometimes even Science can be a blockade against us ; people are accustomed to thinking that all things are under the study of Science , and sooner or later , be solved by it ; they are entangled by its terms, its way of seeing phenomena , its means of handling things ; they can't imagine that the social relations and cultural environment around them can sometimes become so blinding .

Exactly. Richard Dawkins comes to mind as I read this. It's amazing the number of Scientists who seem to think that Nature follows the rules that we make up for it! Of course, something similar is also probably true for other systems of thought, including Taoism.

What we call science is a actually a blend of scientific method and a whole bunch of assumptions that have nothing to do with science that come from one trend in Greek thought. Science is about observation, experimentation, isolating variables, etc, whereas the western conceptual baggage is used to pose the questions, focus, and interpretation. Western science uses a fragmented empiricism that mostly looks at things in greater detail. This has its strength and weakness, namely losing sight of the big picture or system. The interpretation is generally assumed to be "objective" and universal. Both errors overlook the complexity of contexts: of either broader context or more specific contexts that vary case by case, and the context of the observor's bias and effect on the object. These prenicious errors are found at all levels of western thought and pratice in ways i began to describe in previous post.

What you speak of, I would call the "reductionist" point of view. This is the most prevalent POV in Western science, and is responsible for most of our modern technology. There is also a trend toward more "holistic" systems approaches in Western Science, directly or indirectly influenced by Taoist thought.

Follow your instincts and forget the anus-squeezing stuff for now. Try (as others have suggested) some simple, practical Zen meditation. I felt that the following book by Suzuki was pretty good:

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Mind-Beginners-S...5964&sr=1-2

I think this book will answer a lot of your questions about your frame of mind during mediation etc.

As for Taoism, check out the Seven Taoist Masters. Fun reading!

http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Taoist-Masters...6530&sr=1-2

My model of contextual reasoning is consistant with Daoism in all of its manifestation. Daoism is a systems theory because it looks at the connections between all things. The chi meridains are a great example of systems theory. Daoism is also unique in the way it puts general ideas into practice in meticulous detail. Daoism acknowledges that there are different points of view that may have something to contribute, and that contending from one point of view alone is futile, not just beause of the ego attachment, but because things can be seen a different way. Recombination of existing things as source of transformation recognizes looking inside the person for transformation, of balancing and transforming energy, rather than attacking evil things that are assumed to come from the outside (eg germs) which are then attacked from the outside (eg, doctors using drugs.

 

The original concept of duality in Daoism can be used as a foundation for contextual reasoning and systems thinging. Nisbett has argued that this relational way of thinking that is stronger in Asia is more compatible with scientific reasoning. One has to consider something in context to observe its effects and causes.

Cool. It's interesting to know that people are using systems approaches in the social sciences similar to what we are doing in the physical sciences.

On a deeper level, the notion of cause and effect is perhaps overly simplistic. For example, increased CO2 causes global warming and global warming causes increased CO2. Each one causes the other just as both yin causes yang, and yang causes yin. In the physical sciences, we are calling this "feedback systems." To say simply that one thing causes another thing would give one an incomplete picture (and in the case of global warming, the consequences of misunderstanding can potentially be disastrous for the planet!).

I'm a man who's been married for over a decade and has three kids. Here are some thoughts:

* Marriage is a tough son-of-a-bitch and isn't for wussies!

* Family life severely limits your freedom, money and time.

* Family life forces you to grow up and develop yourself just for the sake of survival.

* If you don't grow up in time, you end up in divorce land like the other wussies.

* Marriage teaches you that love is more than just being horny.

* Having kids teaches you what unconditional love is all about.

* Your children are a guide to self-knowledge. Each one carries a random assortment of 50% of your genetic code. With two kids, 75% of your genetic code is represented among your offspring, 87.5 % with three, etc. Each child is a mirror that tells you something about the nature/nurture aspects of your personality.

* Your children teach you at least as much as you teach them, on many levels.

* I can't think of anything that builds character more than being a family man.

* A baby coming out of a vagina is the most amazing magic trick you will ever see.

One earlier thread is the nature of science. I'd like to follow it a bit, and see where it may lead.

 

I believe there can be two forms of science. One is the standard science of physics, chemistry, etc. This is objective science, or the scientific method, in which laboratory tools insulate our observations from contamination by our untrustworthy subjective side (random thoughts, emotions, untrustworthy senses of perception). Objective science requires measurement (observation), reasoning, testability, and reproducibility.

 

Another form of science is pure subjective science, in which we observe what goes on inside us in our mental life and on the level of consciousness. Subjective science includes reproducible experimentation, such as application of the traditional mental techniques of Dao, Zen, Buddhism, the Veda, etc. These techniques may include prayer, meditation, Sanyama, asanas, pranayama, etc., depending on what is found to be effective.

Nice post! What you call "standard science," I would call "Western science" since it is clearly rooted in western philosophy. Taoism as a science would be mostly a "subjective" science as you describe. I think both involve systematic study in order to develop understanding of Nature. However, western science requires that results be reproducible to other workers in the field.

This requirement for reproducibility eliminates most of (or at least much of) the BS and sloppy science from the collective knowledge base. Western science is obviously extremely powerful, as it has made possible most of the tremendous wonders of the modern world. (Taoist science has also been successful, yielding gunpowder, TCM, Chinese acupuncture, etc., but has had less of a dramatic impact on the modern world overall).

But the requirement for reproducibility has its limitations. As an advanced practitioner of western science, it is very clear to me that much (if not most) of the phenomenon in the universe cannot currently be systematically studied in a reproducible, objective way (for example, the idea that violins sound better if you play music for them - purely subjective). This is obvious to many scientists, but not to some others (such as some physicists who think they know everything! ).

As powerful as western science is, it is not very good for some things, so there is a need for subjective systems of science. The problem with subjective systems are that it is harder to weed out the BS and sloppy science. How is this accomplished in Taoism? Any thoughts?

There has been some interesting cross-pollination between Western and Daoist schools of thought in the 20th century. Some of the smarter Chinese masters of the early 20th century became impressed with the power of openly sharing knowledge as done in Western science. Hence, there was movement that continues today away from a guarded "ancient Chinese secret" mentality toward a more open "there are no secrets" attitude. This movement is probably the most important factor contributing to the flourishing of Taoist ideas in the Western world.

In Western science, there is a movement toward "holistic" systems-based approaches (i.e. the whole is more than the sum of its parts) such as Earth System Science (aka the Gaia Hypothesis) in addition to the traditional "reductionist" approaches (i.e. the sum of the parts is the whole). This movement is directly influenced by Taoist philosophy.

Hello! I've been lurking here off and on for a few years, and I finally registered for an account.

I've been practicing taijiquan (37-posture form) and zhan zhuang for about 4.5 years now. The best thing about this stuff so far is that it gives me the energy to get off my ass and start lots of new good habits (like flossing my teeth, etc. ).

I'm a western scientist by profession. I'm interested in Daoist scientific philosophy and methods, and practical applications.

Spiritually, I'm at the place where I'm taking responsibility for what happens in my communities, and am becoming a community leader on a number of different levels.