Wordless

From a daoist perspective, if you have removed all thoughts from your mind so there is nothing left, then you should remove what is left, the "nothing", for it too, is a conjuration of your mind. That is one of the steps of Zuo Wang, the daoist "sitting and forgetting" meditation.

Aww stupid image link didn't work..... oh well... Joke link instead: https://umamusume.com/

Banger music choice though ;D

computer translate.... yes... yes... i see now....... "Wang Zhenyan is not a magist, but he has set up a true religion (Northern Zong) with a t-shirt and emphasis:"....... yes... we must increase market share through t-shirt branding.... google translate what would i do without you.

This picture clearly shows the end goal of a true ATPaoist, arms and legs gotten rid off for better aerodynamics. The tap in the lower half of the picture is where the ATPaoist ties a knot before taking his final deep breath, expanding like a balloon and ascends to the divine.

It's a compulsion really.... i hear foundation and qi, i just throw the Yi Jin Jing at them and yell HUANG before running away. Thank you for the share The reason i use Huang is exactly the reason that was discussed earlier about the word qi is better being left untranslated.

Can't believe the amount of times i've mentioned the Yi Jin Jing in the past 24 hours, but here we are again.... Muscles are not very conductive to qi..... the fact that you only feel energy there and it's a "tremendous energy", i don't consider a positive sign. I think whatever your practice is, you need to slow down, go back to the very basics and slowly move your attention from within, outwards and ensure there isn't any problems... Maybe get into your wuji stance and get everything relaxed, ensuring there's no feeling of strain or contracted/closed off muscles and methodically check your body with your attention.

Putting into question the existence of Chi and the Dao on a mainly daoist forum in a topic about the practice of neidan...... I'll leave it at that...

I honestly think we're agreeing with each other here I'm not saying not to include other things after/later. I'm saying when starting out, start with wuji stance. Have the beginner start out with wuji stance, depending on progress, i'd say minimum 2 weeks with daily wuji stances. There'll be plenty of time to include all kinds of corrections and remodelling, expanding the practice after those beginning weeks. It honestly just promotes qualities you'll want in a cultivator and in the grand scheme of things, a couple weeks of wuji stance is but a drop in the ocean of a lifetime of practice. Either way, i enjoyed your post on your website @TaiChiGringo, your experience is definitely valid and the time and effort you've put into your corrective work is commendable

I think his point was more that Zhan Zhuang should be done after some foundational energy-body work is complete which would "warm the clay" so to speak... I just wanna circle back to previous conversations in this topic about the wuji stance. A systems wuji stance should allow plenty of foundational work to be done. Seems like most here talk about it from a martial arts point of view, from a neigong point of view. You'd want the wuji stance in your system to allow working on the early stages of the neidan practice. Since it would allow such work, there'd be no reason to rush to other practices until the start of a foundation has been made.

A quick google gave me this: In the context of Yi Jin Jing (Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic), the Chinese character 黃 (huáng) refers to the fascia and web of connective tissues (the "yellow" substance filling spaces) Whether it's the correct character, i have no idea, i'm not chinese. You can look up the Yi Jin Jing and find the character in there i suppose.

I'll confess i didn't read the entire article, but it seems the basic goal was really to remove the mysticism of qi in the western world so TCM would gain greater legitimacy. Which i think is a positive thing and classifying qi as "energy" for the layperson is completely acceptable. After all, part of cultivation is a continuous shift of perception, so i don't see why a laypersons definition of qi hinders a deepening of understanding of qi as the practitioners spiritual journey unfolds, shifts and evolves. Also i think any interest from the science community in jing, qi, sheng, so on, is a positive thing and should be met with encouragement from the daoist community.

I think the comparison the article makes would have worked better in a Buddhist context where the focus is predominantly on the mind. Daoist cultivation also has a big focus on Ming (body/vitality) which makes the comparison kind of weak, even if the end result is comparable, the path to get there is extremely different. Comparing end results rather than actual practice seems unwise. I think the real take away from the article from an average Christians POV is Buddhist meditations may help their mind reach closer proximity to that of Christ. Which again seems to ignore something rather major..... Christian mysticism exists and already includes meditative and contemplative practices... Which makes it seem the author just found 2 comparable end results and wanted to find unifying practices, lacking the understanding of really either tradition. The conclusion of the article again highlights the comparability of the 2 end results, while instead it's real conclusion should just have been something along the lines of "Christians could probably benefit from developing a daily meditative practice". Anyway, thanks for the share @Haribol, it at least gave a slight insight into Jungian thought.

I'll second this. Well if it's any consolation, there's high quality english translations of chinese daoist text that does a good job at being nuanced and not over-simplifying the chinese texts or their concepts This is also why people should buy and own at least 1 or 2 good translations of daoist texts, to support high quality work. Hopefully encouraging publishing houses to keep supporting such work.

Your translation literally differentiate between breath and Chi. I'm not sure why you keep saying "in the west", Chinese daoist view Chi as an energy or "subtle substance" as well. There's plenty of Chinese practitioners on youtube you can look up yourself. You're free to pursue whatever path you believe is the correct one, but don't try to overturn well established concepts. It only muddies discussions and benefits no one.

Just a quick aside. If what we're trying to understand is a large area, by that i mean it either permeates many other things (presence) or it affects many other things (cause and effect), then one approach could be: If it's presence is found in many things, choose a thing were you believe it's easiest to remove it's presence and remove it. The effect of it's absence should give a hint to why it was present to begin with. If it's effect can be found on many things, choose 2 things it affects and compare the difference of effect between the 2 things. Might help you, might not Good luck.

Yes, you could put it like that. In the wuji stance example, you could say Wuji stance -> better qi conduction. But the actual process is a longer chain and depending on how detailed you'd want to be, you could go from outer cosmo to inner cosmo. Could start out from outer cosmo: How the earths yin energy alongside the wuji stances natural stability rooted with earth makes you more receptive of the heavens yang energy, the earths yin (think gravity) pulling (yang) your relaxed muscles towards it, creating space (yin) which in turn the Huang will naturally want to fill out and the qi will empower the build up of more Huang (as Huang is highly conductive to qi) and now we're in the inner cosmo. How the space created by the pull of the muscles creates a yin field and the yang conducted energy in the Huang will move towards that field. Anyway i'm rambling again, my point is, one "action" leads to a whole series of effects and reactions. It can be viewed as succinctly as you'd want, but you could say the main idea is you borrow naturally occurring processes to power change by taking a certain "action" which leads to a series of natural reactions to occur. (also don't take my process description as correct as i just threw it together for illustrations sake). A Technique could have one or more of these "process starting" actions, but i'd say that mainly, one technique would correspond to wanting one specific process to happen and while multiple actions may happen during that technique, but these are used to setup the "environment" or dominoes if you will, so when you do the main/final specific action, the environment/dominoes, are correct/aligned and the process you wish to happen, occurs. (sorry for the long answer). Yes, but i was talking of conceptual depth of any process (as showed above), but i agree that when investigating anything, hammering down as many facts as possible will give you a solid framework to lean on when investigating what is "unknown". Though how to then approach that investigation may still be coloured by belief or opinion or even just a "hunch" from slightly similar experiences from past investigations

It is typical in daoist thought that things are described in either the physical or the subtle. An example in neidan would be how a internal subtle change is made, which then will cascade leading to change in the external. An example of the opposite is in wuji stance, you let gravity pull you towards the earth, this constant pulling leads to small stretches of your relaxed muscles, which will lead to development of more Huang which in turn will lead to better qi conduction. From the physical to the subtle. I think it's completely valid to drag in physics and biology/chemistry into the equation, but the question should be where in the cascading process do they fit in, in whatever specific circumstance is being discussed. As a daoist you'd either make a small change that sets off a natural chain of responses, or strengthen an already ongoing natural process, to either speed it up or because the strengthened accumulation will result in an effect the weaker process couldn't make happen without the strengthening. From an internal arts perspective that is... A long rambling basically to say that i agree As for what concepts are related or not, that's probably as much of a matter of perspective and personal opinion or even preference for how minute or detailed things should be laid out.

Using AI to get any reliable information whatsoever is foolish. At best you'll just have a bunch of random sources you now have to go read through, hoping they are of decent quality. Qi gong is a modern term while neidan is a much older term. Any true qi gong ("true" as in, effective at internal change) is based on the principles of the Yi Jin Jing. I wouldn't consider neidan to be covered by the modern qi gong term. Nei gong could probably be put as a subcategory or part of qi gong, but that still wouldn't make neidan the same as any qi gong. Neidan is mainly a meditative, seated or standing, internal practice. Nei gong would usually include movements and such to guide internal energy. Also thinking AI will provide better translations than a professional human translator is ridiculous. At best it'll provide a mixture of modern and old professional translations of the work it's attempting to translate. At worst it'll drop in all kinds of random stuff from a whole host of mixed sources with a high variation in quality. Also would not actually support the people that worked hard on making a high quality translation of a work. As for the practice of neidan, i'll leave that commentary to the more senior members here. We should at least be able to somewhat agree on the meaning of the terms used, before any constructive conversation or debate can be had. Hopefully this post have managed to do so.

I'd say fasting once a week would not be in line with a "natural" fast. Taoism does promote moderation and doing things in balance, but i think it's worth highlighting it also promote the idea of living in harmony with nature (as well as your own human nature). I highlight nature, because fasting is (or rather was) a natural occurrence in human living. To use fasting as quick-fix to lower weekly caloric consumption seems rather unnatural. Whereas if you fasted a week or 2 after a couple months of higher caloric eating. For example, most people will naturally eat more fatty, higher caloric foods during winter when it's cold. Having a week or 2 of fasting after winter would seem much more in line with human nature. Stocking up for winter and running dry near it's end. While it's possible to always eat moderately these days. Nature always oscillates between highs and lows (Yin and Yang), though rarely in abrupt manners. So to me, what is meant by over-eating and over-fasting is to avoid unnatural extremes. For example by using fasting as a way to allow overconsumption. Constantly jumping from the extreme of over-eating to the extreme of not eating at all. I think some will read "moderation" and think it means to find the perfect middle ground. Instead of a graph that oscillates, having highs and lows, they'll aim to create a straight line. Eat the perfect "moderate" amount of foods with the perfect "moderate" amount of carbs, fats and protein. But that way of eating isn't moderate at all, in fact you've just created another extreme instead. If one day you're feeling a bit more hungry, eat a bit more, if one day you feel less hungry, eat a little less. The problem is if your "baseline" eating is messed up, in which case the above idea of eat a bit more or less depending on your body’s signals suddenly doesn't apply. You'll have to regain that natural baseline so you CAN rely on your body's signals and eat in a moderate non-forced, non-calculated way. A longer fast can be used as a tool to help recalibrate ones body. Be it taste buds to gut biome to hormone regulation. But that is achieved through a pretty calculated and deliberate re-feeding plan. It should be pointed out that salt, spices and sugar WILL always mess with your feeling of satiety. Put simply, if you've added salt to your food, you'll delay the feeling of being "full" and therefore eat more. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use salt, spices and sugar. After all, it makes food taste even more delicious. Instead you should be aware of the effect they have on your body. Since it delays the feeling of satiety, one way to deal with that effect is simply to eat slower, knowing your body will be delayed in sending the hormonal signal that makes you feel satiated.