FluffyGuardian

And once we actually dig deeper into the historical sources... all of a sudden you very quickly wanted to change the topic to modern Yang and Chen Style instead of historical sources.

Well, you are the one who posted a video of a modern person sharing his opinions as well. So if you can do it, why am I not allowed to? I also don't view the authors of what I posted in high regard either, but I am bringing forth evidence to the contrary. As for the forms and methods, you are deflecting and dodging here. I listed the names of the sequences from the author of that epitaph, an evidence which you brought forth. And in turn... you have nothing to say about it because it is proof that it has nothing to do with Taijiquan. Do I believe that Taijiquan came from older, historical martial arts? Absolutely... Qi Jiguang's form being one of them. But I back that up with records that actually supports that. Your evidence, on the other hand, reveals no overlap to Taijiquan despite being newer than Qi Jiguang's writing. As for Chen Style, that is a whole can of worms. For starters, Chen Taijiquan was at the brink of extinction in the Chen Village around 1940's. This historical timeline was published and written by Chen Village's own website. Chen Zhaopi retired, and when he came back to the village, he realized the art was nearly dead. His own son wrote an article which mentioned how he begged and pleaded with his father to not give up his pension and move to such a poor place. But Chen Zhaopi was desperate to revive the art.

It is in your own link. You just have to... read the very link you posted. That is where I got my quote from. If you don't like what you read... then I guess you didn't like your source. Also, if ZSF existed, nobody would know what he did, just like how nobody can say what Yang Luchan's form looked like. Scholars regard the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan as a political and symbolic statement. Well, since you like Wikipedia, let me try it too: Wang Zhengnan also wrote about Neijiaquan. Oh, and apparently... Wudang Taijiquan (or any Taijiquan for that amtter) doesn't look anything like it: 長拳滚斫REACHING PUNCH, ROLLING CHOP分心十字SPREAD THE CENTER, CROSSED-BODY KICK擺肘逼門SWINGING AN ELBOW TO FORCE THE DOOR迎風銕扇WAVING AN IRON FAN AGAINST THE WIND棄物投先TOSSING OUT AN OBJECT BEFORE YOU推肘補陰PUSHING AN ELBOW INTO THE CROTCH彎心杵肋TURNING HIS CENTER TO HAMMER HIS RIBS舜子投井EMPEROR SHUN IS THROWN INTO THE WELL剪腕點節SCISSORING KICK TO THE WRIST紅霞貫日SUN BREAKING THROUGH DAWN CLOUDS烏雲掩月DARK CLOUDS HIDE THE MOON猿猴獻果APE OFFERS FRUIT綰肘褁靠COIL AN ELBOW IN, CURL UP AND BUMP仙人照掌IMMORTAL SHOWS A PALM彎弓大步BEND THE BOW IN A LUNGING STEP兊換胞月SHARE AN EMBRACE WITH THE MOON左右揚鞭LEFT & RIGHT LIFTING A ROD銕門閂SEALING THE DOOR WITH AN IRON BAR柳穿魚HANGING UP FISH滿肚疼FILLING HIS BELLY WITH AGONY連枝箭SUCCESSIVE ARROWS一提金LIFTING UP A GOLD PIECE雙架筆DOUBLE PENHOLDERS金剛跌ARHAT DROPS TO THE GROUND雙推窓PUSH OPEN THE WINDOW WITH BOTH HANDS順牽羊LEADING A SHEEP亂抽麻UNTANGLING A ROPE燕擡腮SWALLOW TILTS UP A CHEEK虎抱頭TIGER HIDES ITS HEAD四把腰等WRAPPING ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WAIST This source really just proves the opposite which is the lack of connection to today's Taijiquan. Qi Jiguang's 32 Postures matches Taiji far far better. And it's kind of ironic that the listed sequences has "Jīngāng" because that's not Daosim; that's Buddhism. Qi jiguang's writing is a much older source than Neijiaquan, yet it does a much better job at actually listing a good number of named sequences found in today's Taijiquan.

My teacher would warn aspiring students about learning from him due to how physically challenging and painful the practice is. Of course, plenty of people thought they knew what hard work, pain, and misery were like due to past martial arts experiences. Some of them were instructors with over a decade of experience in a martial art. Then, they come to my teacher to learn on their first day. Lesson 1 is about holding a basic stance. It is short and high-stance. This isn't a low and wide stance. And those people could not stand for more than a few seconds. That is how utterly painful and physically demanding it is, even though it's an unassuming short stance. Some of these people could go through their own forms that can last for 40 minutes. Our form also lasts for about that long. The difference is that a fraction of 1 sequence in our form is more physically demanding than the entirety of other people's forms. Hence, there is a very high quitting rate because my teacher has no intention of watering the art down to accommodate a wider audience. So when people have their own ideas of past martial art experience helping them learn this particular art, they very quickly realize how useless those experiences were in the most fundamental stances that are unique to this lineage.

Well... according to your own source: In fact, there is no record linking Zhang Sanfeng to Taijiquan. Consider the book called "Taijiquan Treatise: Attributed to the Song Dynasty Daoist Priest Zhang Sanfeng" by Staurt Alve Olson. So here we have an author(who practices Yang Style) who has every incentive and bias to WANT Zhang Sanfeng to be a real thing. He wrote an entire book dedicated to this topic. And guess what? He wrote: "No historical data can prove that assertion that he created what has become popularly known as Taijiquan, or that he ever wrote anything concerning Daoism or Taijiquan." The author has also tried to cite an original writing called "Zhang Sanfeng's Secret Arts for Refining the Elixir". According to him... that writing is from 1946.... Here's the thing... Wudang Taijiquan that we see today... It comes from the 1980s; it is a government-supported post-cultural revolution project aimed at reviving their culture. It is also around this time that they did the same for Shaolin; that is how Shaolin became very commercialized and corrupted - hence the abbot recently getting into big trouble and being replaced. Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua are arts that had to be imported into Wudang because Wudang does not have anything of its own. Wudang Taijiquan is actually... performance-based, low-stanced Yang Style Taijiquan. If you take a look at the naming convention of Wudang... It's all Yang Style naming convention. We are supposed to believe that Yang Luchan deleted, added, and renamed EXACTLY from what he learned from the Chen Family to match a martial art from nearly 1000 years ago? And also... take Xingyiquan for example. It comes from Xinyi Liu He Quan. So... why doesn't Wudang brand themselves with Xingyiquan and not the older art? This whole "Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua" trio was really made popular by Sun Lutang (founder of Sun Style Taijiquan) in the early 20th century because... he learned Xingyiquan in his 20's, Cheng Style Baguazhang in his 30's, and Wu (hao) Taijiquan in his 50's. He wrote books about it... He's pretty much the reason people are talking about "Internal martial arts". We cluster Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua together because Sun Lutang specifically learned those three..

The discovered records in the Tang Village actually make zero mention of Zhang Sanfeng and make zero mention of Wudang. Furthermore, that manuscript actually mentions a Wuji form which resembles Yang Style, and a Taiji form which resembles Chen Style. This would be ironic, as this would mean the Taiji form was never passed down to Yang. Instead it entails Yang got a Wuji Form instead. Wang Zongyue's own writing also makes zero mention of Zhang Sanfeng and Wudang. Wang Zongyue's form is actually just Wu Yuxiang (the same guy who "found" the treatise). Both start with 懶扎衣 (Lazily Pulling Back the Robe) - Wu Yuxiang likely derived this from Chen Qingping. Neither has Cross Hands - something both Yang and Chen have. And both (misspelled?) Shang Tongbei (Fan/Flash Through the Back) to San Yong Bei (Three Through the Back). Did Wu Yuxiang mishead Shang as San? And "both" authors just happened to have spelled it this way when none of the other texts call it this? What Taijiquan would call Cloud Hands (Yùn Shou), they call Tangling Hands (Yún). Two different Chinese characters, but again, look at the Pinyin here: Yùn vs Yún. The tone is different. Did "both" authors mishear the word? These are too specific to be coincidences. When combined with the known history of Wu Yuxiang being frustrated with Yang Luchan’s secrecy, and then “suddenly” finding a perfect, stylistically-aligned treatise in a salt shop, the logical inference is: Wu Yuxiang or someone close to him authored the treatise and retroactively attributed it to a Wang Zongyue to lend it classical authority. Wu Yuxiang has an interesting position of having learned from Yang Luchan and also having gone to Zhaobao. Yet according his own disciple and nephew who was a scholar, in writing, they do not know the origins of Taijiquan. In fact... he made zero mention of Zhang Sanfeng and Wudang in that writing. This goes against the notion that Yang Luchan thought that Taijiquan was tied to Wudang. If Yang Luchan knew that and Zhaobao village knew that... why would Wu Yuxiang and his disciple/nephew not know that? When it comes to Chen Style, I think many non-Chen practitioners have a blindspot when it comes to the second form. Some people think that the first form (Yi Lu) is the "real Taiji' whereas the second form (Er Lu) is just Shaolin unrelated to Taiji. However, if you look at Qi Jiguang's Quan Jing Jie Yao, he has a 32 Posture Form assembled from a large array of martial arts at his time and place. Note that this predates Chen Family Taijiquan. This form is meant to be practiced in the order it is listed. And in the posture, it has movements such as Ào Luán Zhǒu (Twisting Phoenix Elbow), Shùn Luán Zhǒu (Smooth Phoenix Elbow), and Shòu Tóu Shì (Beast Head Posture). These sequences are exclusively in Chen Style's Er Lu but not in their Yi Lu. In other words, these sequences in Er Lu share the same root as Yi Lu. The 32 Posture also includes Single Whip, Golden Rooster Stand on One Leg, White Crane Spreads Wings, Point to the Crotch, etc... which all major Taijiquan syles have. Furthermore, Yang Style has sequence names that only exist in Chen's second form and not their first form such as: White Snake Spits Tongue and Flying Diagonal. Chen only has these in their second form. Qi Jiguang listed a lot of martial arts systems in his time and place including how Shaolin was famous for their Staff method. However, he made zero mention of Wudang. All this just goes to show that Wudang was not famous for martial arts. Most of the bare-handed Chinese martial arts that we know of today come from the Ming-Qing transition period which is 17th century. Shaolin, for instance, was not famous for its bare-handed martial arts; they were famous for their staff method. According to Meir Shahar, In Cheng Zongyou's Shaolin Staff Method (ca.1610), the staff expert has a hypothetical interlocutor who asks: Cheng explains that throughout China, empty-handed techniques are not yet widely practiced, which is precisely why Shaolin monks explore them. The Shaolin wished to develop hand combat to the same level of perfection as their ancient staff method. So, based on this old Shaolin Staff text... it was considered weird that Shaolin (at this time period) was focusing on bare-handed martial arts. Even Qi Jiguang wrote that bare-handed martial arts are not useful on the battlefield. That's because weapons existed.

Hello, I am a practitioner of Chen Family Taijiquan of Chen Zhaokui's lineage. My path has been more of the traditional, old-school variety, where martial arts is the focus. One thing to know about me is that I admire differences in martial arts. So many people seem to have a bias or desire to want all martial arts to be the same. They would use the common metaphor that all martial arts are paths up the same mountain, but personally, I think it would be more accurate to say that there are different mountains that different martial arts focus on. It seems pretty clear to me that Boxing and Wrestling are climbing two very different mountains. Those two paths are climbing two very different peaks. But hey... that's just what I think. Like sure... they have two arms and two legs... yet an elite Boxer clearly does not move remotely similar to an elite wrestler. When martial arts do things differently (often due to differences in context), I think that's really cool! If we all do the same thing, I find that boring. What I practice and study is extremely different than pretty much any mainstream Taijiquan, regardless of whether they are another Chen Style or any other style. This is not just my opinion, but anyone with prior experience with Taijiquan who tries this particular path out agrees with this sentiment. Even the basics and foundations are different. And, I find that really interesting. I embrace differences. I think a lot of people are terrified of differences because they have experienced how it breeds tribalism and toxicity. But I feel like many have lied to themselves that everything is the same out of fear of conflict.