FluffyGuardian

Ah, well since you like Ma Hong, he has said in an interview: "Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fa jin. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fa jin. But then, from the third generation on - Yang's third generation, Wu's second generation - they no longer practiced fa jin." That's because Fa Jin, in his mind, means explosive power. He said, "It is soft, yet instantly hard." And since pushing hard is wrong... do you therefore think this is wrong then?

Oh really now... the word that predated MMA means MMA, does it? Would you like to tell us what the different martial arts being mixed together here then:

No... that Chinese sentence is what you meant, actually. You said that Sanshou means "MMA", well... that Chinese sentence is talking about the combat sport of Sanda. It's a very famous sport that's basically kickboxing with throwing and takedowns. But that is not what Sanshou means traditionally as it pertains to traditional, non-sport, Chinese martial arts. Perhaps this will convince you... Google "Yang Style Taijiquan Sanshou". I don't think it's good, but it essentially shows you that this "term" exists outside of combat sports. Some Yang practitioners apparently created Sanshou partners sets. But the fact that they call it "sanshou" should prove to you that this isn't used to mean a combat sport. As for the Chen video... that is not true at all. Whether or not the guy in the red shirt pushes hard or not, crossing the centerline will cause him be manhandled by Lie Jin. The dude does not even need to offer force. I have used it plenty of times against others.

Not quite. I think you are confusing Chinese words here. Perhaps you are confusing Sanshou with the modern combat sport called Sanda. Traditional Sanshou is an application methodology that non-sport, traditional Chinese martial arts would have. That is a vocabulary some would use. They are not talking about the sport. Similarly, Taijiquan has Shuai Jiao, but that term is not referring to the modern sport called Shuai Jiao. As for Tuishou, your concept of it is very... basic. Tuishou has a lot of martial applications. The notion that it's only about sensing the opponent's push is a very... reductionist and basic level of understanding. For example, here is a Yang style practitioner practicing a traditional patterned Push Hand method, and you will see this guy (who is under Fu Zhongwen's lineage) showcasing applications: And one application we see here is also a good illustration of the difference between how Yang and Chen does it. On the left, Chen would not break contact and continues the circle. On the right, Yang just breaks contact, pushing the opponent away. Here is the Chen's version of the same patterned Push Hands: There are a lot of applications in just this 1 pattern that are lost in many Taiji schools. You will notice that the teacher said "Centerline". He didn't punish the student because he was pushing too hard. He punished his student because he crossed his centerline.

Bu Fa technique, as in stepping methods? Well, yes. Although I am not sure if you're referring to something specific here. In regard to "The highly skilled practitioner won't give you anything though." I would point out the other side of the coin to Taijiquan skills: "The highly skilled practitioner can compel or trick the other person to give something." This is true for both Tuishou and Sanshou. Tuishou is a limited context. Tuishou teaches a specific paradigm, and it is a very useful paradigm. But a lot of it operates in a certain range. But in fighting, one has to worry about the outer ranges... the punching and kicking ranges. Against a skilled striker, that's basically where Sanshou methods would come into play. If someone is up against a Boxer, right from the start, "How can I push this guy?" shouldn't really be one's first thought. Because they're not in range. A lot of applications people show in response to a punch are very unrealistic because the punch extends... but it stays extended while the partner does things like trying to catch and grab the wrist. It is possible to "catch a punch", but... realistically, that isn't done by aiming to catch the wrist because that is too small a target; a boxer's jab is really damn fast, flickering in and out, combined with their feints and footwork. The notion of establishing sustained physical contact is much harder once the context is in Sanshou range. That is why Sanshou translates to something like Scattered/Free Hand. There is some sensitivity skill involved, but the physical contact tends to be very momentary. Like, someone punches, and you parry, there is a momentary contact. My point is that Taijiquan (traditionally) should have toolkits from the outermost range to the innermost range. And when you are in the outermost range (the kicking/punching range), Tuishou hasn't started yet. The thing with Tuishou is that practitioners are very used to having the luxury of already having sustained physical contact. Generally speaking, they are not used to the skill of engagement, going from no-contact to contact. And in Sanshou, it would be rather silly to go: "Oh wait... my opponent didn't push me... therefore, I cannot hit them." Well... this isn't Tuishou range anymore. What if the bad guy is harassing my friend or loved one? Am I going to walk to the bad guy, put my hand on him, and then wait....for him to notice my presence... and offer me a push before I can "Fa Jin"? That is a pretty lousy strategy.

Well, what you have explained is actually exactly what I just said when I mentioned that Yang just redefined the terms; other martial arts do not mean it that way. Look at the Chinese here. 發火 (fā huǒ) - this is an every day Chinese term that basically means EXPLOSIVE RAGE AND ANGER! The loss of temper. Flaring up! When a tiger mother gets angry and beats up their child, we would say the mother "fā huǒ". The literal translation would mean "to issue fire". 發電 (fā diàn) - this is an every day Chinese term. Maybe someone touches a door knob and "OW!" Static electric shock. Sudden. OUCH! That is the connotation of fā in the Chinese language. In English, when you translate it, the connotation suddenly becomes... "Oh... you just want me to... express myself?" All of a sudden, the connotation of fā is gone. Now let's suppose... you want to use the English connotation of the translation, that rather... defeats the purpose of the term existing because every movement should have Jin involved. The term just got downgraded to mean "any usage of Jin". If the Chinese folks really meant that... they would have said yòng jìn (用勁) instead. If we follow the logic that fā (發) simply means 'to express,' then we should be able to apply it to other things. For instance, the word for 'kiss' is 'qīn' (亲). So, could I say 'fā qīn' to mean 'express a kiss'? Of course not. Any Chinese speaker would laugh at that. It sounds ridiculous, like you're shooting a kiss out of a cannon. The idea that Fa Jin requires an opponent to do something is also just silly because... magically, you are unable to hit someone in the face unless the opponent did something first? Like... not even a feint?

It's very common to see beginners to push hands too; that is most of them online. Most Push Hands we see online are beginners. That doesn't mean they're doing it well, but hey... everyone sucks when they start learning something, gotta start somewhere. Well, pushing each other hard is not a westerner thing. It's both west and east. As for misinterpreting "Push" in Push Hands..., well, I see that a lot in Yang Style where their idea of "Fa Jin" is basically "Fa Tui" (Unleash Push). First thing shows up if I just type in "Yang Fa Jin" on YouTube: As for using the opponent's push to then pull them... that's not Fa Jin. That's just (if I am understanding correctly) just Lu Jin. I find that modern Yang Style tends to define "Fa Jin" to basically mean "using Jin". Any ordinary thing they do is suddenly called "Fa Jin". Here's why I specify "modern Yang Style". It didn't used to be this way. Here is a passage from Fu Zhongwen's book; Fu Zhongwen is Yang Chengfu's disciple, starting at the age of 9 and been under Yang Chengfu for like 20 years: Sound familiar? This doesn't sound like Yang Style at all. This description is what we would expect from Chen Style. Hard and crisp? That doesn't like today's Yang Style. Here is Fu Zhongwen's grandson.... oh hey... now that's Fa Jin like... every other Chinese martial art, welcome to the club: This is the very thing (solo explosive release of power) that many today's Yang style practitioners would have said is wrong or external. They say Fa Jin can only be done with a partner, not solo. Fa Jin also does not depend on the opponent pushing.

Chen Style has two forms: Yi Lu and Er Lu. Yang is derived from Yi Lu. Er Lu never got passed down. Whether Yang Luchan learned Er Lu remains a mystery. Yang Style has a few sequences that only exists in Chen's Er Lu but not in Yi Lu such as White Snake Spits Tongue and Flying Diagonal. Qi Jiguang (Chinese military general from 16th century)'s 32 postures does showcase names that exists in either Yi Lu or Er Lu which suggests that to some degree, both forms share one of the same roots. For instance, Qi Jiguang lists Phoenix Elbow which is the same name in Er Lu. Er Lu is not simply Yi Lu done faster; it actually has new sequences.

There has been a notable trend of Taijiquan progressively having higher and narrower stances. Chen is known for low, wide stance. Old-school Yang had them as well, but most of today's Yang got shorter and higher. Wu Style got even higher and shorter than Yang. Wu (Hao) arguably got even higher and shorter than Wu Style. This is how Yang Chengfu stood. How they stand is essentially the same as Chen Style: But nowadays, Yang doesn't usually go this low and wide anymore. And this is apparently Wu (Hao) Style's Lan Zha Yi: Even Wing Chun practitioners have wider, lower stances than that. The evolution of the stance, looking at Single Whip, higher and narrower as the style got newer and newer:

Huh? I wasn't referring to "Pushing Hands" (Tuishou) per se. I am referring to the large data points as shown on demonstration videos on social media. That isn't a hasty conclusion; that's just raw data. Traditionally, Tuishou is not the sum-total of Taijiquan. Taijiquan originally had Sanshou as well. Tuishou is effectively a study of sustained physical contact. In contrast, Sanshou is the study of broken-contact (like Boxing/Kickboxing are essentially a Sanshou paradigm). The thing with martial arts is that applications tend to resemble each other when they originate from a similar time and place. Northern Chinese martial arts tend to have applications that resemble other Northern Chinese martial arts. There are a lot of overlap in applications between traditional Taijiquan and other Northern martial arts because they are historically from similar regions. When I look at the old dudes doing Northern Praying Mantis, Baguazhang, or Bajiquan, I can go: "Oh! Hey! That is close to our application from this sequence. Oh hey! We would do it that way as well!" But conversely, the lack of those applications being present is also a sign of broken lineage because everyone else in the same region has those usages, which makes the one that doesn't the outlier. So take Bajiquan for instance, an "External" Northern martial art. They have "Single Whip", "White Crane Spreads Wings", and "Cloud Hands". Well hey... Taijiquan have sequences with those exact names. That's a sign of there being old common roots in these martial arts.

Earlier you said you had a hard time in agreeing with me in how Taiji can be different. But now, you seem very convinced that Taiji can be "completely different", which I agree with. I feel like Yang style's notion of Fa Jin, at least in modern times, is an outlier in Chinese martial arts. If one were to look up Fa Jin for Yang Style, it pretty much boils down to pushing the opponent away. While pushing is a valid application found in the form, it's very strange that this is their signature move. It's very ironic when practitioners espouse the principle of "Stick and Follow," yet their primary application is effectively "Unstick and Repel." By pushing the opponent away, they terminate the engagement and forfeit the opportunity to practice the very skills of sticking, linking, and following. They have effectively ended their "sentence" after a single word. From a strategic standpoint, simply pushing an opponent away is not a problem-solving move. The purpose of self-defense is to neutralize a threat. A pushed opponent remains standing, unharmed, and free to re-engage. The fight is not over; it has merely been paused. What if they are skilled and can recover their balance instantly? What if they know how to breakfall? There's an anecdote of a famous Yang teacher who sparred with a Judo guy who said: "The man could push, I’ll give him that. I must have gone twenty feet back . . . but I had a hold of his jacket as I went and I rolled over in a tomoenage and choked him out." The funny thing is that when people hear this story, they celebrate the Tai Chi guy for being able to push someone far away, completely ignoring the part that the push was used against the Tai Chi guy because he was being held onto. So all that pushing power got converted into the Judo's pulling power. In contrast, a lot of the applications I am familiar with are designed specifically to prevent a safe breakfall, ensuring the opponent remains under your control even after crashing into the ground. This requires sustained contact, allowing you to transition immediately to other methods of torture, such as twisting the fallen opponent into a pretzel. Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu, the predecessor of Aikido, has the same philosophy: In contrast, if we look at Aikido, they do have a good number of applications where they allow the opponent to just roll to safety in the far distance. Both Daito-Ryu and what I practice have the mentality of: "I want you crushed right next to my feet where I can continue to "stick and follow".

Well, a few things to note here. First of all, the video I posted showcases Er Lu, the second form of Chen Family Taijiquan. Yang Family mainly inherited Chen's Yi Lu, the first form. They didn't inherit the second form. Er Lu is not simply a "fast" version of the first form. While there is some overlap such as Single Whip, there are also a lot of sequences that not found in the first form, and by extension, not found in Yang style. Sure, there are some Yang and Wu Styles that claims to have "Fast Forms". Although, whatever power they generate generally becomes rather localized in the arms or legs. It becomes very flicky, like flicking a hand or flicking an arm or flicking a leg. There is a lack of weight/mass/heaviness behind their power. Additionally, Gongfu Jia has way more diversity of expressions of power. For example, vertical rising power at 3:25 (this Jin is more in a grappling context): Oh, definitely not. The video I linked was the second form. We have a first form too, Yi Lu, which is generally slower and more stereotypical of conventional Tai Chi. And that is the foundation for Er Lu. Yi Lu has to be learned first. Yi Lu is considered a "Yin" Set for developing the internal side and the foundation. Er Lu is considered a "Yang" set for expressing that internal side into something more outward and hard. It is "using softness to create hardness" so to speak. Generally, Yi Lu has a higher percentage of softer methods, yielding, manipulation, and attaching. It has some striking, but that is like the white dot in the Yin symbol. Er Lu has a higher percentage of harder methods, striking methods, and non-attachment. It has some of the softer methods too, but that is like the black dot in the Yang symbol.

You're missing a keyword here. Basically, I do not practice "mainstream" Chen Taijiquan which essentially means what I practice is not the popular type. As far as Chen Style is concerned, the most "mainstream" and popular would likely be Lao Jia (Old Frame), especially from figures like Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei. Laojia is so popular that whenever Chen Style is talked about, people generally assume it's Laojia. However, Chen Style has other "frames" of practice such as Xiao Jia (Small Frame) which refers to a different lineage. In what I practice, it is called Gongfu Jia which stems from Chen Zhaokui's lineage. Chen Zhaokui is Chen Fa'ke's younger son. Well... here is Chen Zhaokui's one and only son, Chen Yu doing a section of Er Lu (the second form of Gongfu Frame): You mentioned that you struggle to agree how Taiji methods can be very different. Well... does this video change your mind at all? Or do you somehow think a Wu Style practitioner, for instance, could somehow move like this if he wanted to? "Shen Fa" would be 身法 in Chinese. It's not "神" which would mean "spirit". Pronounciation is also different: shēn vs shén. One example of Shen Fa as it relates to Gongfu Jia is Xiōng yāo zhédié (胸腰折叠), which translates to Chest and Waist Folding. This is unique to Gongfu Jia. Other Chen Style frames don't have this terminology or method.

I would like to clarify that while I practice Chen Style, what I practice is not representative of mainstream Chen Style Taijiquan. I do not want people to misconstrue what I've said to mean that this is what all Chen Style is like. It's not. As for where the pain is located, it depends on one's level of practice. So yes, the pain can be in the upper thighs and quads. The nature of the pain changes over time. However, I would say that this particular method is very intensive on the glutes. The glute of the weighted leg becomes rather hard; a location that we call "Kua Gen" which essentially the "heel" of your butt. So our butts tend to hurt a lot. For our method, the glute has a lot to do with "root". For us, we have a notion of "Grab the root" which involves a connection between the glutes, hamstrings, heel, and the ground. Contrary to most Taijiquan methods (including other Chen style), where they place their weight on the Yongquan point of the foot, we actually place our weight on the heels. Many things we do are just very different than other Taiji methods. While I totally understand why some people might think that "eating bitter" is just the parent/teacher being spiteful for their childhood abuse, in what I practice, the physical demand on the legs has a very clear, practical, logical purpose for building other mechanics that require the monstrous leg stability. In the long run, the legs aren't the final goal here. The final goal is Shen Fa (Body Method), including lots of various complex mechanics as they relate to the torso. Every martial art is both “Internal” and “External”, but in terms of body mechanics, what makes an art more “Internal” than another art is having a higher ratio of body to limb connection. The reason we demand the legs to be really strong is that once we introduce Shen Fa, those mechanics threaten the foundation of the leg. To use an analogy, it's like a helicopter in flight. On the outside, the body of the helicopter looks very stable. But "internally", it's constantly fighting against the big propeller. The tail propeller has to constantly provide side thrust in the opposite direction just to achieve stability. In a sense... that tail propeller sort of functions like a "root".

I think Jackie Chan's case is quite extreme, but on the flip side, he credits that bitter experience to his success. If Jackie Chan never went through that... I'm not convinced he'd be able to do all the dangerous things in his movies. As awful as his experience was... the results speak for themselves. Chinese culture is just... different. And there are aspects of it that I am not a fan of. In weightlifting, it's the repetitions where you are near your limit that give the most value. That is why some people say that they have a mindset where they don't start counting until they reach their limit first. The earlier, easier reps are essentially a warm-up for this "growth zone." It'd be rather silly to say that lifting 20 lbs. is correct, but lifting 30 lbs. is wrong.