BigSkyDiamond

yes that aptly describes from within the worlds of separation. (except i don't use "emptiness" because for me it indicates absence or lack; and Dao is always present.) So in the worlds of duality and separation (the universe and everything in it) yes form and Dao are inseparable. What i am saying though is that the Dao also expresses in ways that are NOT duality, that are NOT separation.

Thanks DanC

so then related question for anyone. What does "enlightenment" or Awakening look like for you in your own frame of reference? Do you stay in the physical universes multiverses of duality? Or leave it altogether never to return? Since you are infinite you still exist, just not in the universes of duality. what is the end game for whatever path you embrace or practice? Great discussion, i love it.

yes. if i had to say right now, i would say the purpose (for me) of being human in a limited duality physical universe is to figure out how to get out. And then put it into practice and actually do it. And yes to recognize the truth of who i am. So then (for me) waking up from the dream, dissolving the universe, exiting the worlds of Separation includes letting go of all belief in Separation. When i no longer believe in it, then i withdraw and remove my attention from it. When i withdraw my attention, then i no longer maintain it. And it dissolves.

that's why it feels so good and restful and appealing when i am simply a point. Of awareness. (in the exercise described earlier)

yes. and since i created this limited duality universe which i inhabit, then I can uncreate it. this does not affect anyone else's universe. they have to each get out of their own dream. even traditional theology recognizes this. God created the universe, except its NOT past tense, it is present tense. God is literally creating and sustaining the universe every second.

yes. OK . Relative and absolute makes sense. Relative is duality and time and space and form and temporary it comes and goes so is not the real me. Absolute is permanent and is the real me. However there is a codicil to this part: Yes and No. From the perspective of within the illusory universe, Awareness/Dao is present and not separate from physical material universe. The universe is reliant upon and needs Dao for its existence. There can be no universe without the Dao. The reverse however does NOT hold true. Awareness/Dao does NOT rely on the universe. The Dao does NOT need the ten thousand things. The Dao precedes the ten thousand things. For instance If human me is having a dream, that dream only exists because of me. when i wake up the dream is gone. But I am still here. I don't need the dream to exist. The dream does need me to exist. Thanks Stirling! it is a joy to even be able to have a conversation about this stuff

I think it was a passing thought. "what it would be like if...." and boom the material universe and everything in it emerged. Then it was like "oh that doesn't really work does it. scratch that idea. duality, nah. time space and form, nah." but the cast of characters in the universe are still stuck in the same repetitive cycle over and over. until they can get out. if i am having a bad dream the way to get out is to wake up and realize oh it wasn't real. Poof the dream goes away it has no substance. But when i am still in the dream it feels oh so very real. The infinite is unlimited. the material universe is limited. that's why it doesn't work. Awareness/Dao is not limited to expressing only as a limited duality physical universe. It surely expresses in myriad other ways. Becuase it is after all unlimited.

what's that great saying in Buddhism. we use a boat to get us across the river but when we get across we don't keep the boat and carry it on our back because then it is a burden. Something can be very very dear to me, identities i have carried, achievements that indicated growth and courage, groups that filled me with joy to be part of. And to let those go has been at times heartwrenching. Even the masters and teachers and paths that have provided such tremendous assistance. If i don't set them all down at some point, they become a burden and impediment. sort of like "if i'm not that, then what am i" "if i let go of that then what do i have left". That can be unnerving.

my growth and development is not reliant upon or dependent upon other people, other groups, or other universes. It is reliant solely upon me taking responsibility for my own thought, speech, actions, feelings, and emotions, to address my own healing and unfinished business. if i made vows or contracts in other lifetimes, at other places, as part of other groups then i can break those contracts and break those vows. If i am still attached to those groups or those vows (for instance "i need to stay in the universe to help all sentient beings") then i am still attached to that commitment. If something is of importance for my development, then it will show up on my path and i will feel an affinity for it (or an aversion). For instance for a while i was interested in different "star families" that seeded planet Earth with the current crop of humans, and how they were seeking to protect earth and help humankind to advance so they could then send emissaries to other planets and do the same thing and civilize those unruly planets. There are people very interested in that level of service and very dedicated. But it does not speak to me. I am not drawn to it. Same for planetary karma, universal karma, or multiverse karma. For the two groups i was exploring, it became clear to me for each of them that they were not for me. Group karma makes sense to me. People can identify strongly with the identity of a group, whether it is their profession (soldier warrior fighter) or their religion, or their national identitiy or their cultural identity. Same for family karma. We keep coming back with the same family members in various combinations and roles and strong loves and strong aversions. Until we work through how to do relationships in a healthy manner, until we work through or release a strong identification with a job or religion or culture then it will affect us. There is always a parallel in my current lifetime indicating something that needs to be worked out that carries a strong emotional charge indicating unfinished business. I worked in healthcare for over 20 years, and caregivers are notoriously (a) codependent and (b) extremely invested in identifying as "healer." That was something that was in my face for me to work out and let go of this lifetime. People in the military and other warrior fighting roles have issues that come along with that. It was mentioned over on another thread that there can be so much turbulence and drama among kung fu masters and lineage because that profession is, well, fighting. Those are examples. So there would need to be something on the radar that speaks to me (either strong fascination and interest, or strong aversion or other emotional charge) in the areas of global karma, universal karma, multiverse karma. And there isn't. It is flat. There is nothing there for me. But i can certainly appreciate that it is a valid area of growth, healing, and advancement for those it speaks to.

Swimming Dragon qi gong, Zhineng qi gong.

when you are sitting (or walking or supine or standing or doing qi gong), however it is you meditate or tune into your awareness.....where is your point of awareness and do you move it around. where is your "consciousness fastened there, bound there". I know during qi gong i move my point of awareness to different places: to the diaphragm for deep breathing and expansion; or to the upper dantien turning it, or to the coccyx pointing down drawing a circle on the ground, for example. for me that sounds like a good qi gong session and how it feels i don't do seated meditation but i do seated (and standing and moving) qi gong. "State of zero" for me i associate with stillness (and therapeutic stillpoint where everything pauses and healing occurs) and at times a sense of my body dissolving; and time is gone, there is no time. What is felt as "spiritual power pervades the whole body intensely" i associate with feeling very "charged" during and after qi gong. again for me i don't do sitting meditation, but in the sloooooooooow eyes closed qi gong that i do, yes there is attention to breath for me that is attention to deep breath and movement of the diaphragm. accompanying that for me is internally hearing saying "release, absorb" with awareness to connect to the stars and beyond in all directions of my body. This often brings the sensation of not being able to feel the outer edge of my body, it is dissolved and i just feel very very big expanding in all directions. no my point of awareness does not sit or stand or recline or walk. My point of consciousness is just a point. It is viewing my body walking, and the trees and the sidewalk and the ponds and the turtle and the ducks. I do that exercise either at home just going about my daily activities, or when i am out walking. Yes there is ease of movement and ease of breath. It takes some getting used to, to hold both perspectives at the same time, the perspective of me taking a walk or fixing supper; and the "birds eye" perspective i view from my point of awareness up in the corner of the clear cube watching the scene. I find it very restful being a point. It feels very pleasant and natural. this is great Mark, thank you for the thoughtful and detailed response. I don't do seated meditation, in part because i just feel too antsy to sit still (but have no problem with seated qi gong, fine with that). And in part because it is just uncomfortable. And in part because i want whatever path or practice i have to be part of my regular daily life and activities and not "separate" to seated meditation. Not doing "just" seated meditation could also be my rebellion from sitting at a desk job and having that association. For receiving inspiration and intuition, it is strongest when I am reading or walking or playing Tetris. For being able to drop into deep stillness and "no-time" and feel that "zest, ease, and power filling the body intensely" it is qi gong (during and after, and also like right now thinking about how it feels in qi gong). Or throughout daily chores if i "visualize" myself doing qi gong movements then i can feel it intensely then too.

New thread created, all discussion welcome. Thank you

3. Post from stirling with my comments this post jumps out at me because it says to me that the universe and everything in it is built with our thoughts. Thinking of something causes it to appear. Our infinite self contains the ten thousand things (universe and everything in it) but is not affected by the illusory world. It is a passing thought and no more real than the thoughts or dreams we have as humans. When we are in a dream it feels real. But it is not.

2. Post from me with my questions

1. Post from Mark Foote with my comments

i may start a different thread on this, because there is also a recent post from stirling that also touches on this that I want to discuss further. The end point of "all physical objects" are contained within and are contents of my infinite self (or consciousness) is that the finite physical universe itself and everything in it, is also contained within my infinite non-physical self. which means just as every person has their own "thoughts" that other people are not privy to, has their own dreams that other people do not see or inhabit. Then every person has their own universe that other people do not see or inhabit. That is where this leads and that is what I want to hear more on. Cut to the chase, the universe is a thought of mine (or a dream) and has no more substance than a thought or a dream. What is finite and limited and comes and goes is NOT real. What is infinite no beginning no end no form no space no time IS real. That is my point of awareness. I AM THAT. off i go to start the thread, i will copy and paste the quote from Mark and the quote from stirling to launch the discussion. Thank you.

I have been meaning to ask Mark about this, so i understand "consciousness can take place in a specific location." is that like seeing my awareness as a "point" that I can (a) move the point around to different parts in my human body; and (b) move the point around to different places OUTSIDE the body. I have seen this mentioned in different threads and want to see if I am understanding that correctly. When I have done this it is not "leaving the body" but it is expanding my non-physical self to say fill the room I am in, like a big clear cube, and the physical body is contained within that cube but my point of awareness is for instance a point in say the upper right corner of the big clear cube. This trains me in seeing and understanding the "physical" body is contained within and is a small speck within my larger "non-physical" awareness. (i have a block using the word consciousness so i call it something else like big S Self, or non-physical self, or awareness, or infinite self). I can play with the clear cube being even bigger to contain the whole building i am in or the whole neighborhood where I am walking. ( It can be enlarged to contain the whole city or country or planet. etc. but when i try to do that i can't "feel it" it.) I do this on my daily walks outside in nature, and the cube is about the height of a two-story building. With the physical body at the bottom of the cube, and my point of awareness a dot up in the upper right corner. The teacher i learned this from describes the body as "content in consciousness" just like the contents of a room contain say chair, table, books, laundry basket. When you practice "consciousness can take place in a specific location" (i think in one thread you say you do this for instance in going to sleep) is that what you are doing? Where do you move it around to when you move consciusness to "specific location". if not then please let me know instead what it is you do. Thank you! I get a lot out of your posts. Limited only by the bounds of my own understanding.

karma: cause and effect The causes and the effects carry over and may appear in different lifetimes (reincarnation). not punishment. not judgment. not blame. a tool for learning and self-development. it has been a useful framework for me in understanding and self-correcting. and it is even more useful for me to step outside of karma altogether and no longer be bound by it.

there are no coincedences. (in my frame of reference; in the universe i inhabit; each person builds and inhabits their own world and universe)

dark waters below, the deep deep depths ever still, only surface churns

yes absolutely. i am a practical person. so whatever the path or practice is, it has to be accessible in every place in my daily life.

gotta love Gaelige Oro Se do Bheatha Bhaile, sung by Irish lads Seo Linn 9.8 million views and counting

"What are you listening to?" Jackhammers doing utility work outside my window. "Enter Zen from there," as Eckhart Tolle says.

i like that. also for when encountering someone else's anger too, and allowing it to pass by us without harm. giving it a wide berth.