BigSkyDiamond

the post above touches on an important and related issue. It would make for a great thread topic for additional discussion. Regarding when a religious leader engages in violence, abuse, rape, molestation, substance abuse, assault. How do followers respond, how do ex-followers respond, how that cycle continues unchecked until it is brought to light and addressed. And whether onlookers years or decades later condone and defend this behavior. " "a movement of ex-followers who say that ______'s public image as a spiritual genius has been used to hide a legacy of deception, exploitation, behavioural control, and systemic abuse. Their activism has organized around ______'s son, _____, who eventually inherited his father’s empire and, began to face his own public allegations of physical violence and sexual assault. Fifty ex-members interviewed tell stories of every type of mistreatment imaginable, from emotional manipulation and extreme neglect to molestation and rape—stories that turn ______'s brand narrative, with its promises of utopia, upside down. the group’s name has been shortened to 'Sham.' "

this is a valid measure and guideline: you can only take your clients (or students) as far as you have gone yourself. expressions of rage, hatred, insults, virulent venting demonstrate they haven't gotten very far

Bold above is a red flag when is is used to justify bad behavior rather than taking resonsibility for it. It perpetuates and propagates and condones bad behavior instead of demonstrating accountabilitiy. Every emotion, thought, speech, action a person has absolutely belongs to that person and they are 100% responsible for it. If someone is hot-headed and prone to fits of rage for instance, those absolutely belong to the person. And they are 100% accountable for their actions that flow from that. If a teacher doubles down and does not take responsibility, accountability, and ownership for their speech and actions and emotions and feelings; or if the students double down for the teacher. That is not mastery. It is making excuses. example: a teacher who also is called Master in their milieu vents in print online and in their newsletter, at length, their anger rage hate insults. Someone called this behavior out, saying it was not a good public look for a teacher and Master and the product he represents. There were students who defended the behavior by saying he was "just standing up for his values" and "it's OK because he is fighting for his beliefs" "he wants to instill that same value in us." That is doubling down and not seeing anything wrong with the behavior. I have a mechanic who works on my truck, a small business i buy toothcare products from, and a cordial neighbor, all of whom express that way and it is not a problem. I associate with them, they can be extreme and obnoxious and virulent in stating their opinions, however there is harmony in our interactions. But i sure as heck don't look to any of them, or anyone with that behavior, for guidance, lessons, or teachings in any level of spiritual mastery. Because they don't have it. I'm not understanding this part, but would like to. Thank you.

what is the saying, it's easy to be "calm kind thoughtful humorous" in normal life circitumstances. Anyone can do that. But the whole point of spiritual mastery or having a toolbox of spiritual practices, is to be that way when life circumstances are NOT normal.

BINGO. yes.

Yes that is true for this site. But the topic is behavior of spiritual masters and that category indicates a high level of attainment in not only "learning" something but also in "putting it into practice" in their daily life. They live it. That is why in many traditions the students not only study the masters lessons, and listen to the master's lectures, and participate in the master's classes. But also closely study how the master conducts himself in his own daily life. In my own tradition i love the stories of students who would hide in the sage's closet or cupboards to observe the sage doing simple things in daily life. Not because they were voyeurs but because of wanting to study and emulate that high level of mastery. when someone says one thing, but does another; when the actions don't match the words; it is a red flag. And spiritual masters are held to a higher bar, and rightly so.

but according to the other thread the very same voices are saying "they are God" "God is wearing this turban"

a related question for me is does the teacher walk the talk. Looking at a teacher's actions and behavior in daily life. If a teacher claims to help people with addiction, but chain smokes and drinks then their clients and students are going to question the benefits and effectiveness that teacher can offer. "You can only take your clients as far as you have gone yourself" is an excellent benchmark for anyone in the healing arts. An angry contentious fighting argumentative hot-headed quick to explode persona simply can not effectively teach or model peaceful ways of interaction. It is not about expecting anyone to be perfect, becasue teachers on a spiritual path are human and not perfect. But if they fall off the path how do they handle it, or do they even recognize and acknowlege it, or do they justify defend and rationalize it. Same for their students. When a teacher has questionable behavior and it is called out, do the students tend to dismiss the concern, rationalize defend justify the behavior. Or do they discuss ways to handle it moving forward, and how to prevent future instances from occurring within the community? Is there an apology from the teacher or do they double down and refuse to change or even acknowledge. I also feel that whatever is going on with the teacher is transmitted through the work, even if the work itself is solid. For instance if someone teaches relaxation and healing techniques, but is habitually angry and fighting and name calling on line, then that anger and fighting is transmitted with whatever they are teaching about relaxation and healing. I am facing that at the moment myself, i really like what the work a teacher offers, and have been using it for some time now, but i am growing increasingly uncomfortable with how they carry themself online. It is tainting the work for me. Those for me are very much related to "spiritual masters" engaging in contentious angry fighting activity of any kind. Activists see themselves as fighting as warriors as disruptive and use and incite violence. Most spiritual traditions are not about promoting those values. So again, do they walk the talk

If i get involved in something that is polarized, contentious, high drama, and has conflict then that is duality. And i am not walking the talk of oneness, peace and non-duality.

Divinity has no gender. Gender is not a characteristic of Divinity. Divinity has no politics. Politics is not a characteristic of Divinity. Divinity has no professional sports affiliation. Teams are not a characteristic of Divinitiy. Divinity has no conflict or polarization. Conflict and polarization are not characteristics of Divinity. Peace be still. Be still and know that.

The above quote is from Sufi mystic Mansur al-Hallaj, born in Shiraz, Persia year 858 CE. Sufi is the mystical element of Islam. "We own a lot of what is known about al-Hallaj to a French Catholic scholar of Islam, Louis Massignon (1883-1962). Massignon became so passionate about the mystic’s life that he made him the subject of his doctoral dissertation, travelled to Irak in pursuit of of his life and work, and finally produced a four-volume study: ‘The Passion of al-Hallaj’, which became one of the major works on Islamic mysticism. On his fifty-year journey of research and writing, Massignon met al-Hallaj in such a profound way that it led him to embrace the Roman Catholic Church. A conversion experience which he describes here so beautifully: “There is no question here of claiming that the study of this life full and hard, and rising, and given, has delivered to me the secret of his heart. Rather, it is he who has searched mine, and is searching it again.” source https://thedawnwithin.com/the-carder-of-innermost-souls/#:~:text=His absolute fervour and his,self shared by all beings.

i remember attending a writing retreat that was on a peninsula so there were tides and much opportunity to sit on the high bluffs and listen to the water and the waves. Talking to one of the guys from class on break he mentioned that he had lived for a time in Hawaii and so there was the constant sound of the ocean waves. I commented how wonderful that must have been to always have that sound present. He shrugged and said, "Not really. It actually sounds like traffic." He wrote wonderful poetry. His poems are still among my favorites.

I know this is an older thread, but what comes to mind for me in reading this thread (and the many wonderful posts in it): Reading the book Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, and listening to his videos on you tube. For me he provides the most compassionate, practical, and humorous perspective on how to live this in our daily life. The way he describes "the pain body" is brilliant and effective in my experience. Particularly when someone is going through the dark places and feeling overwhelmed. He can make the most serious issues very funny and that is marvelous. Also on you tube there are dozens of free videos hearing him speak and present. They are hilarious and illuminating and effective and healing. When i was bedridden and despairing and too overwhelmed or scattered to even pick up a book i spent hours listening to his videos and they made a huge difference. His Zen stories still have me burst out laughing even after hearing them dozens of times.

in my view, it is more than "just all of us" though. The whole (God) is greater than the sum of its parts (all the people). i don't think we do figure it out on our own. I think we tap into God which is more vast than just a bunch of people put all together. God is not limited. We as humans are limited. That is the difference. We can tap into the greater wisdom that is God. All the human brains working together do not have that wisdom. So yes God is within us. But i would not say God is us because God is more than us. sort of like a sunbeam is not the sun. it is an emanation of the sun, but the sun is far greater and far more vast in scope and intensity than a sunbeam is.

too funnny !!!!

a whole lot of people turn to God as adults, and who never learned that from our parents. My parents taught me it was foolishness. But based solely on my own personal experience, learning, and self-development as an adult, i came to recognize God, and rejected the conditioning from my parents. There are many religious traditions and many "preachers and gurus" who teach that God is both transcendent ("out there") and also immanent ("in here"). That there is a spark of Divinity within each and every one of us. And that Divinity permeates all of creation. "There is no place where God is not." May each person follow the path which resonates with them, and allow others to do the same.

I also see it in terms of the creative process. Hanging out with and listening to artists and writers and musicians describe how they create and where it comes from. That their finished works exist already at another plane and they are simply bringing them into the physical world.

i agree. Everything listed in bold above is yes within the "universe and everything in it" and yes is a relative construct. Because all of that is within the worlds of separation. All of that is the "ten thousand things." I am talking about going beyond and outside of the worlds of separation. Moving back up the ladder that is the flow chart in the first four lines of verse 42, Tao Te Ching. The ten thousand things appear last in this sequence. There is no time or space or form at the level of the first line with "the Tao" and "the One." (It is another conversation to have regarding the distinction between the Dao and the One). But there is no Separation and there is no duality at that stage. Duality, time, space, and form appear in lines two, three, and four. I read that as a sequence of the physical finite limited emerging from the non-physical infinite no-time. And that it is a ladder that goes both ways. So it can be used as a return to Source. There is a phrase "descent for the sake of ascent." Descending into physical matter, and then ascending back to Source. An earlier post metioned learning the truth of who we are. This is the experiential practice, climbing back up the ladder to Source. sample translation, from verse 42, Tao Te Ching "Tao begets one. One begets two. Two beget three. And three beget the Ten Thousand Things."

Not Daoism the religion. The Tao Te Ching. (Thank you for the message, i am working on reply and will send message in a bit.)

yes, when we are in the world of form, the map to the Dao is through the world of form. So yes, that is how we recognize the Dao and experience it. However the Dao is also the map to beyond the world of form. The Dao is outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging. And since the Dao is the essence and truth of who we are, then those realms are also available to us (outside of time, not bound by space or form, unchanging).

for me it is getting out of the worlds of separation, never to return again. Exiting the repetitive cycle of reincarnation and rebirth, and also exiting the worlds of separation altogether. That is the perspective from the me within the relative, the me inside the dream. And it stems from the awareness that being stuck in the worlds of separation is a dream, it feels real but it has no substance and it's time to wake up. at the level of the Absolute, this has already happened. at the level of the Absolute i never really entered the worlds of separation. At the level of the Absolute it was a passing thought that was instantly dismissed as, well, untenable.

yes that aptly describes from within the worlds of separation. (except i don't use "emptiness" because for me it indicates absence or lack; and Dao is always present.) So in the worlds of duality and separation (the universe and everything in it) yes form and Dao are inseparable. What i am saying though is that the Dao also expresses in ways that are NOT duality, that are NOT separation.

Thanks DanC

so then related question for anyone. What does "enlightenment" or Awakening look like for you in your own frame of reference? Do you stay in the physical universes multiverses of duality? Or leave it altogether never to return? Since you are infinite you still exist, just not in the universes of duality. what is the end game for whatever path you embrace or practice? Great discussion, i love it.

yes. if i had to say right now, i would say the purpose (for me) of being human in a limited duality physical universe is to figure out how to get out. And then put it into practice and actually do it. And yes to recognize the truth of who i am. So then (for me) waking up from the dream, dissolving the universe, exiting the worlds of Separation includes letting go of all belief in Separation. When i no longer believe in it, then i withdraw and remove my attention from it. When i withdraw my attention, then i no longer maintain it. And it dissolves.