BigSkyDiamond

i keep coming back to this. so then not only are all my different lifetimes occurring simultaneously. But then also all moments in my current lifetime are in parallel too. I had not looked at it that way. i saw them as separate parts of a timeline (but still linear) that i could jump backwards to or forwards to. Like beads on a string. But if they are all simultaneous (parallel) then that is a different perspective. Then it's more like thin disks of film with images (moments) all stacked on top of each other. Like negatives when we took photographs with actual film in the camera. So when you opened your eyes and found yourself in a different room, was it like your consciousness was looking through the eyes of another you that was in the other room (you popped into that other you body); or was it more like your same body popped over into the other room and you physically landed there. I have always been wary of inserting myself into other timelines because of not being able to come back. (physical relocation has not interested me for that reason.) but it's felt fine "rescripting" my past for instance helping my younger me. And it's felt fine contacting my older me for wisdom and guidance, that has felt fine. Because it feels more like communicating without the concern of getting stuck or putting my current me at risk. I appreciate hearing your perspective.

you can have your own ideas though, what it means to you, how you interpret it or understand it, what your own view is, what it brings to mind for you. That is what this thread topic is for.

It always felt to me like it was two separate sections put together, the first four lines felt so different from the rest of verse 42. At times i wondered why the first four lines were not at the start of the Tao Te Ching.

i am always on the lookout for easy ways to compare a lot of different translations. These are the two sites I have been using. If anyone has any other "compare text" for the Tao Te Ching please let us know. Thank you. compare verses (Garofalo) https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclzindex.htm Terebess https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclzindex.htm

for those who may be wondering (I was so i looked it up) he has done the entire book. I was curious how he presented other passages. it is here

OK got it. so then Prana flows or emerges from Self, and Self is top of the chain?

Thank you for the full post with many insights. Much appreciated. The One giving birth to Two yes for me that is "non-duality" which steps down to "duality" or "polarity" the "world of opposites." that is how i understand it. it is easiest for me to understand duality in terms of watching my thought process. when i can see that all people are the same in our humanity it is non-duality. when i start making judgments good-bad, right-wrong superior-inferior, it is polarity thinking. "us and them" yes that is very valid. Time (and space and form) does not exist nor is it applicable at all stages described. I have always seen this sequence as going from finest to densest. So it is a progression or stepping down, like vibration is stepped down and has differing results. Or moving back up the chain from densest to finest. I see it as a practical map of how physical matter (densest, the ten thousand things, the universe and everything in it) comes into being which can be traced all the way back up to the finest, the source (Tao) but i agree it is not dependent on time and space at every level. My understanding is that time and space and form only exist at the very densest level (ten thousand things). As a physical human in a physical universe, time and space and form are characteristics but at all the other levels / stages they are non-existent and not relevant. The physical human body i currerntly inhabit is finite and has a beginning and end, and is subject to time it belongs to the ten thousand things. But the part of me that is infinite belongs to and has the characteristics of the Tao: unborn unformed unchanging no beginning no end always was always will be. The body comes and goes. The infinite part of me does not. always was and always will be. thank you for the illuminating insights docB

so then for those terms in post quoted which is at the top of the heap? I am not familiar with how those two terms are being used, Prana and Self

I find that the painting is beautiful. i would put it on my wall. if it was in a shop or on a postcard i would purchase it.

I am seeing this on website for Sifu Terry Dunn: "Certified in 1983, Dunn is a master instructor in the Southern Sil Lum Five Animals Kung Fu, Taoist Elixir Method, and Ehrmei Bok Fu Pai. Master Dunn is the sole seventh generation preserver of Ehrmei Mountain Flying Phoenix Celestial Healing Qigong ("Fei Feng San Gong"), an extraordinary medical qigong art (a subsystem of Bok Fu Pai) created by Taoist sage Feng Dao Deh in 1661. He learned this qigong from Grandmaster Doo Wai from 1991 to 1997, along with rare Eight Sections of Energy Combined Kung Fu system and the 54-part 10,000 Buddhas Ascend to Heaven Qigong System." more here https://www.taichimania.com/tdbio.html and https://taichimania.com/

that certainly makes sense. it reminds me in art, of "process not product." The process of creating art that drives the artist not the final product. I remember reading that our creativitiy IS our Divinitiy. geometry is the best. in my favorite book on making quilts the author describes herself as the kid in school who could not draw horses but when she got to geometry and they passed out the graph paper, she fell in love with it and never stopped (me too). her techniques are brilliant and one of the best parts about designing and making quilts is the fun of playing with graph paper and colored pencils. (Fabric is fun too but there is always that nagging worry about spending too much money buying too much fabric.)

yes that's for sure. excellent point, i agree. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," says the Lord. Or says the Beingness. bold above, yes i totally agree. our "future" self can visit our "past" self and provide advice, guidance, input, suggestions. i remember in one of the classes i took we did a group exercise where we took the form of dragons and flew as a group of dragons to take a look at our younger self. Then the teacher described how when he was in his 30s I think it was, he was out jogging, a regular guy with a regular business, he practiced Zen and was interested in that but nothing bizarre or crazy or out of the ordinary. When he saw a swarm of dragons. He thought it was strange. He set it aside (put it in quarantine he calls it) but did not discount it or deny it. (Eventually dragon made more appearances, he started having conversations with a particular dragon, and wrote down what the dragon was telling him, for his own personal use and so he could remember, which turned into the first book, then the books led to the workshops etc. The dragon helps teach the class, and it was the dragon narrating and leading us through the exercise. The material in the books and workshops is from the dragon and other beings that present as guests from time to time.) Back to the class we were taking. The point of the exercise was that the swarm of dragons where we were visiting our younger self could be the swarm of dragons the teacher saw that time 10 years earlier when he first saw dragons at all. That time is not fixed or linear. That we can be in more than place and more than one time and drop in freely. I was still sitting physically in my chair at the workshop (with my eyes closed) while also flying as a dragon in a swarm which the teacher saw when he was jogging. And since it was a remote workshop, we were spread across eight or nine different countries around the world (the teacher is in Germany, I am in USA)

see now this trips me up. Because change is a function of time, and there is no-time at the level of Beingness. Also if Beingness is whole perfect and complete, then change indicates alteration, something has been added or removed. Which means it was not whole perfect and complete. it gets tricky because for me the characteristics have to not contradict each other. How do you reconcile "no time" with "change" at the level of Beingness? Not sure if in in your frame of reference it contains "whole perfect and complete" as a characteristic. and there is still too the discussion of what is the point in causing Existence. what do you see for that? this ties in to characteristics of Beingness also. I am always interested to hear how people see that in different frameworks. thanks Lairg for the good conversation

i love how one teacher describes it.* When the game of chess was invented with its rules, instantly every possible chess game was also created and "exists" based on the rules of chess. So when someone is playing a chess game, no matter what moves they make, no matter how brilliant they are, that chess game already exists. Same thing for the universe and everything in it. When the universe and everything in it was created, instantly every possible scenario simultaneously also came into existence. So no matter what lifetime or life form or timeline we visit, it already exists. It is very alluring and yes we have free will to stay as long as we want and play out as many of those scenarios that entice us. we also have free will to leave. because no matter how much someone loves playing chess or is entieced by the adventures of the universe we have free will to say enough is enough and exit. They get tired of chess and say get me out of here. * [The teacher is Joachim Wolffram, five very slim paperback books in the series Althar the Crystal Dragon]

When I am a character in a computer game yes there is all sorts of purpose, all sorts of adventure, challenges, it is mesmerizing. Even on the mundane human level we recognize that, that is why we get sucked into it. We keep going on to the next game and the next. It is very satisfying on many levels: intellectually, creative, requires intelligence, setting up systems and strategy, figuring out how it works. yes relationships too, teams and guilds and alliances. And it keeps us coming back for more. Same with the universe and everything in it. It keeps us coming back for more and it engages us for the same reasons. but at some point after so many eras and eons reincarnating, thousands of lifetimes or tens of thousands, at some point we realize enough is enough. it is repetitive. it is the same thing over and over. and we say get me out of here. It is not real. The real me is the core of my being, the stillness the silence. that is my ticket out. the universe and everything in it is enticing. it is seductive. it is engaging. it is fascinating. we have forever to hang around and explore it all, map and define and learn about and interact with the systems, the life forms, it is a feast and we keep coming back. until we don't want to anymore. so in asnwer to question posed, i dont see that as a must for me. Where is it written that i must have relationships or that i must have purpose? (good question by the way Lairg, good scenario to posit there for consideration). Let me think about it a little differently. what is my purpose at this momentfor my life? From the perspective of my infinite Self (the part of me that emerged from Beingness and never left Beingness and is Beingness [in the parlance that has been discussed as frame of reference with Lairg], from that standpoint my purpose in this incarnation is to figure out how to get out altogether, to completely exit the cycle of re-incarnating at all ever. For me then the universe and everything it (I think we are calling that Existence) poofs is gone and wafts away. It has no more substance or reality than a dream does. It goes where any dream goes when I wake up. It is not real. Beingness is real. So i hang out there in no-time and no-form. [at other times i would have answered a different purpose for myself, either purpose for this lifetime, or for reincarnating over and over in general.] good question. i'm curious to hear from others on this. How about you Lairg how would you answer regarding what you see as your purpose. good stuff here.

the earth and the galaxies and the waters and outer space and the universe and everything in it will be gone poof but the dreamer remains. Unformed, unborn, unchanging, no space, no time, no form, no beginning, no end, always was, always will be. That is the dreamer. And that dreamer is me. that is who we are. that is what is real. [in my frame of reference anyway; different set of parameters for each person in their own universe] where I am holding right now is how to get out. The me in the dream, in the computer game needs to activate that which will get me out. Another correlation with regards to paths of religion and spirituality, is discarding the attachment to the universe and everything in it, and that includes most important of all, the attachment to the belief that it is real. Another belief that has anchored me here is the system of reincarnation itself and karma, my belief in that. Dissolving that too. i do think there are maps left for us how to get out in the many traditions and paths that provide various guides to Enlightenment or Awakening. They have left a variety of Exit signs lit up to show the way.

i am mesmerized by this image. sorry for interrupting the flow of the thread i can't look away, Mark's photo mesmerizes. van gogh starry night.

islands float in air, astonished eyes shine and smile enthusiasm

But that is exactly what we are. you are. i am. Consider this. What if you ARE exactly that (an immportal being) and what if you DO have that level of power over reality. This is a serious question for consideration; and it is NOT a "what would you do if you were God" question. Let me use an analogy. When you have a dream and you are also in the dream, who has power over the dream? Who has all power over this level of reality that is the dream you are dreaming? This is actually where I am holding right now with my own frame of reference. And there are paths of religion and spirituality which correlate with this. When I am in a dream it feels very very real. Even when i have the same recurring dream it is very scary every time and i feel the sensations and it bodily feels like I am right there (for me it is being chased and it is terrifying.) Who has all power over the dream? Well the me having the dream is "real" and when i wake up i see that the me in the dream that was being chased is not real. whew. I always feel better upon waking up with extreme sense of relief that it is over, that it has ended, and most of all that it was not real. So glad that did not really happen. Nothing really happened. OK. Who has power over the dream? Well, no one else is having the dream, so the dream stems from me, comes from me, and 100% belongs to me. Therefore I am responsible for the dream and I have power over the dream. Not the me "in" the dream because it feels very real in the dream and i just want to get away. But the me having the dream. That is what physical reality is. The world the universe and everything in it people places and things, is a dream that the "real me" is having. In the dream it feels very real (the physical world and physical body that we inhabit and all the other people in it). But when I wake up from the dream i see that it was not real. Nothing really happened. That is why it's called Awakening. It's like if you invented a computer game, and then you fell into the computer game and you were running around and kept being killed and coming back over and over and went all the different levels and explored all the different quests, and chose all the different characters you could be (the wizard, the warrior, the farmer, the magician). Who has power over the computer game? How do you get out of the computer game that you designed and built and then fell into as a character and you are stuck in there. Like the post above says what would you do and what would it be like as an immortal being with all power over this level of reality. The you that designed the computer game is the real you. The you that is stuck in the computer game is of course not real. It's like that. The correlation in some paths of religion and spirituality is getting off the cycle of birth and rebirth completely. And being the "real" self. That is the immortal part. Because the real "me" or the real you, the dreamer, the computer game designer is unborn unformed unchanging always was always will be no beginning no end, outside of time, no time no space no form. good thread topic by the way, thank you for starting it

Thanks Cobie. I went ahead and started another thread here specific to verse 42 of the Tao Te Ching, for further discussion. I didn't want to go too far off topic from "God Interacting With Humans"

pasting here two of Cobie's posts from other thread. Thank you Cobie.

Thank you Cobie. I have always read or understood "the ten thousand things" as the universe and everything in it. And that there are intermediate steps in the sequence between The Tao and then eventually the worlds of form (the universe and everything in it) what is your sense of the top of the heap Tao, its characteristics. My understanding is unborn, unformed, unchanging, always was, always will be, no beginning, no end. questions for anyone to discuss or address. I may be going too far off topic for this thread "God Interacting With Humans." Is there an existing thread for discussion of Verse 42 from the Tao Te Ching, or maybe I should start a new thread? (new to the forum, seek to stay in compliance)

OK this is great thank you so much for input on the lines from verse 42 in the Tao Te Ching. Regarding the first line especially, I have wondered about and tried to get a sense of that for the longest time. I am still trying to.. How do you see or describe or understand what is the difference between Tao and the One in this sequence shown: The Tao gives birth to the One. The One gives birth to the Two. The Two give birth to the Three. The Three give birth to the ten thousand things. --- from verse 42, Tao Te Ching or if you have a translation that might clarify that. I get that the Tao is the top of the chain. And I get that the 10,000 things is well shorthand for me is "the universe and everything in it. . What i am grappling with is what differentiates the Tao from the next item mentioned which is the One. I would also like to hear how people understand what are the emerging "the Two" and "the Three." which precede the Ten Thousand things. But my burning desire most of all is with regards to the first line. I have such an appreciation for those on the forum who know Chinese and (gasp) are able to read the original and translate the Tao themselves (wide-eyed me in awe). I like using the resource online that has a whole bunch of translations so i can pck a verse and read a whole bunch of different versions. But what i really want is to hear how people understand the first line and the progression described. Thank you any and all for in put.

i would say it is because of 33 years doing energy work which includes 10 years hands-on practice treating clients. Craniosacral training was my favorite and things accelerated from there. Doing craniosacral work tends to open things up and so people tend to "see a lot." It also requires developing a fine tuned sensitivity to palpation , feeling sensing listening at a very deep level through a very light touch. I also think i came into this lifetime with a store of previous experience carried over from previous lifetimes. I remember in my first craniosacral workshop we worked on each other and the class was a mix of beginner and experienced students. The person i was working on as soon as i started working on her reached up and put her hand on my arm and said "you've done this before." Some years later when I was receiving the Reiki level where they hands on put the symbols into you, the fellow providng the trasmission busted out laughing with his hands on my head and said "They're already there! You already have them!" With certain modalities as i learned them (even the advanced craniosacral with the Upledger Institute) it did not feel like learning how to do it, it felt like remembering how to do it. For me that is the indication it came with me from a previous lifetime. I remember reading that is why for instance a four year old little kid might be able to sit down and play piano pieces, because they are basically picking up where they left off. That makes the most sense, in my frame of reference.