BigSkyDiamond

which brings us to intention, motivation, reasons for practicing this or that path. Clearly identifying that may be a way to illustrate some of the differences, and to address some of the questions being asked. The words I highlighted in bold in the post above speak to intention, motivation, reasons for practice. In other words "what's driving the bus" for us personally, in practicing this or that path. For each item in bold given for the path of magic, i am going to provide parallel examples of how that may be seen in the traditions I know from within. NOTE: This is NOT given as a challenge to anyone's path, nor is it for debate, arguing, criticizing any other path, or one upmanship. It is ONLY an illustration of how the points raised may be seen in another tradition (two other traditions, the ones i am most familiar with and have directly experienced). And the comparison is provided in the spirit of seeking to understand each other's views from within different paths (magic focused, or Divinity focused or Awakening focused) "The whole point of learning is to abolish fear. " "do things beyond what everyone in the world sees." "Thats the whole point... you learn so you can do." The whole point is non-doing, is stillness, is cultivating pure awareness The whole point of learning is to draw closer to the Divine and discern God's will in my life The whole point of learning is to exit the cycle of rebirth The whole point of learning is character development and self improvement by cultivating virtues I learn so i can dissolve the belief in separation and Awaken to the infinite me The focus is on dissolving the material world, awakening from the dream "Why is it so dangerous to want to learn about what one can truly do and accomplish in the phenomenal world? " "a balanced person with common sense already knows the wisdom of when to not do things" the wisdom of when not to do things includes not engaging in magic. Magic is avoided because it puts me in harm's way. It is dangerous because it summons lesser entities. It is a distraction and diversion and obstacle and barrier to Awakening. As above, so below. Just as there are parts of town i don't wander around in "bad neighborhoods" because unsavory entities do not have my best interests at heart. just because entities are dead, invisible, or non-physical does not make them smart, safe, or trustowrthy. Nothing to do with fear. everything to do with common sense, discernment, safety, and wisdom. "ultimate freedom as one has learned ultimate influence and control of oneself at the very real and absolute level. " Surrendering control, not seeking more of it. Let go and let God. Let go of attachments. Ultimate freedom is I will to do Thy will. Ultimate freedom is pure awareness. Ultimate freedom is observe and let it go. The very real and absolute level is no-time, no-space, no-form and the material world (the universe and everything in it) is a dream. " bring your dead best friend back to life" nope, not a goal. If i petition God through prayer, then the Divine can work miracles. My focus is on relationship with the Divine. My focus is on Source. Thank you Jadespear for very thoughtful discussion on various elements of this topic.

Within varioius religious traditions, a distinction is made and the differences are recognized between "magic" and the divine. There are esoteric bodies of knowledge and practice within religious traditions, that are not available to everyone and are not taught to the masses. There are valid reasons for that. (This discussion appears over on the 242-page qigong thread, too, how and why the "inner secrets" of a lineage have been kept secret, and when they are revealed, under what circumstances and to whom.) At a superficial level it can be seen as "religion is afraid" or "religion is superstitious" or "religion is primitive does not understand the science of magic" (condescending much?) But there are valid reasons why "magic" is advised against in many tradition that have far more depth than those superficial knee jerk judgments. This is not a criticism of anyone's path or practice. It is how other paths may view "magic" and why it is avoided and advised against.

my observation is that assessment of "what is Nirvana" is not accurate. It shows a lack of understanding what Nirvana is and what it entails. Nirvana is not a thought process or mental gymnastics, which is how i read "just a state of mind, nothing more." Regarding "Nirvana is misunderstood" the post above is an example and demonstration of that. it is dicey and skating on thin ice for someone to make sweeping generalizations about a tradition not their own. "Nirvana is this" "Jesus is this" "Buddha is this." Because within the tradition it is often seen very very differently. It can show a lack of regard and respect to make statements like that. And it shows ignorance (not an attack on anyone posting, used as it is defined "lack of knowledge or information"). Labeling a religious figure "a magician" from another tradition can be deeply insulting and offensive. Because in that tradition it may be seen as a pejorative. Also trying to paste one's own belief system onto another path or tradition can come across as paternalistic, condescending, patronizing. i am discussing generic behaviors here and generic views, not any specific individuals posting or their personal views.

oh my gosh, that actually has a name, it is Maslow's Hammer. !!!

as the saying goes, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

it's a free will universe. a person can choose to hang on to their anger for as long as they want, year after year, lifetime after lifetime, eon after eon. there is no judgment, there is no criticism, there is no timeline. we have all of eternity. it is up to each one when if or whether to keep it.

yes, the still small voice. direct link to the Divine in me. I hear it best when i can differentiate it from my thoughts and thinking mind (intuition is not that), and separate it from the reactive emotions (intuition is not that). a favorite author at the moment is Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn, he uses the phrase "before thinking, before thought" for that inner stillness.

Other people places things situations circumstances are not responsible for my emotions. I take 100% responsibility for all my thought, speech, actions, words, emotions, feelings, and attitudes. They belong to me and only me. [NOTE: Responsibility is not blame. It is essential to understand the difference and be able to differentiate "responsibility" from "blame."] That is an element of healing for me, from both a secular psychological view, and also from my current religious practice. of course each person has their own healing journey, their own frame of reference, and their own path of religion-and-spirituality.

a new person has joined and expressed an interest in "magical practices, occult traditions, and Chinese folk religion" so they might find you to be a useful resource; they are user Electric Sekhmet.

yes. i love this

another helpful resource, is after a while when you have favorite posters and you want to read more of what this or that person has written, here is the path to view all their posts. Click on their name, click on see their activity (button upper right) this shows a few recent posts but not all of them, then click on posts (left side menu list). Then the posts appear. I just looked up someone who has provided helpful information recently on several areas of experience which resonated with me; they have 1,005 posts so there are 39 pages I can view and read and mine for useful information.

also the Activity tab at top of page lets you see at a glance the most recent posts, people, and topics under discussion. I have found gems there (people and posts and conversations) that i would not have found through searching by topic or section. So that is a great section to get in the habit of viewing.

welcome! there are discussions and topics in the forum on any and all of the above noted interests in bold. a good place to start is throw each of those bold topics one by one into the search and start visiting threads. what works for me is to randomly visit threads, see what piques my interest in what is being discussed, and go from there. If someone is discussing something of interest, i ask "can you tell me more about this, what resources do you recommend" and people on this site are quite helpful and responsive. as you go along you can then see what jumps out at you and explore further. I also find and start noticing there are certain posters that consistently resonate with the interests I have so i will visit other threads they may be participating in and invariably there is related information that I also find helpful. what brought me to Dao Bums was wanting to find out more about different forms of qi gong, and there is robust discussion around that, I have found. It does help (for me anyway) to hear people discussing their experiences with different types of qi gong and helped me decide to try out two forms which were different than what i had been practicing (on and off) since 2019. You can also start a topic and ask whatever question you might have. Have fun exploring, jump right in, ask questions.

I had not considered emotions as "safeguarding" or protecting me. They flicker and pass quickly. My job is to recognize them, observe them, and allow them to, well, pass quickly. That is not stuffing nor is it denying, blocking, repressing, ignoring or overriding. It allows them to float on by. I do not have to engage, I do not have to chase it or grasp it or build a story around it. And I certainly do not have to act it out. I do not have to participate in it and i do not have to express it. Emotions are fleeting. "Emotions are always based on an external stimulus, and almost always come and subside quickly." (from here, article What’s The Difference Between Emotions, Feelings, And Moods? ) "The art of listening to and understanding our feelings is crucial, as is the skill of recognizing when they may be steering us off course." (from here, article Feelings Are Not Facts) "They can be so intense that they feel undeniably real, leading us to believe they represent the absolute truth. However, it’s important to remember that these emotions, regardless of their intensity, are not facts." For me they (emotions and feelings) are steering me off course if i don't allow them to pass quickly. Because it is the nature of emotions to pass quickly. What i DO see as protecting and safeguarding me is my intuition. Intuition is neither emotion, nor feeling, nor mood. That is an important distinction for me to make, and vital for me to be able to discern and differentiate. Emotions and feelings are NOT reliable indicators for me (except to remind me when i am not in balance). However intuition IS a very reliable indicator. It is through my intuition that I glean "does this situation have my best interests at heart." thank you bindi for the post, it includes a lot of thoughtful material

i read those as how we rule ourself, a guide for how to govern our own life. sacred texts are first and foremost a guide to self-development. As one reviewer puts it, " The central thing the Tao Te Ching asks us to be aware of is not the world, but our self." sample translations verse 65 and 57. And I look forward to Cobie's input on what the Chinese text actually says. "Therefore, it is said:"Those who implemented the TaoDid not use it to make the people shrewd;Rather, they used it to make them simple."The reason why the people are difficult to ruleIs that they are crafty.Therefore, using craft to govern a stateIs a pest to the state;Using noncraft to govern a stateIs a blessing to the state.Constantly remember: these two constitute a guideline;Constantly remembering this guidelineIs called a deep and remote virtue.The deep and remote virtueIs deep indeed, remote indeed;And, though contrary to all things,Will eventually reach Grand Harmony."- Translated by Chichung Huang, Chapter 65 "Govern the kingdom by the normal way.Fight the battle by the unexpected way.And one can win the world without using force.How do I know this is so?By the following:When there are too many restrictions and regulations, people become poor.When there are too many weapons, the kingdom is in disarray.When there are too many tricks, bizarre things happen.When there are too many decrees, the crime rate increases.This is why the sage says:"I do not force my way, and people live peacefully.I keep quiet, and people live normally.I do not interfere, and people become rich.I do not covet anything, and people would be honest." - Translated by Thomas Zhang, Chapter 57

the other bit that comes to mind is that we "create our own weather" that is the climate around us which we experience at any given moment. Happiness, contentment, peace of mind, calm, stillness, those are an "inside job" for me. The emotional climate that I experience, well that thermostat is set and adjusted by me, and not by anyone or anything "out there". (including people, places, institutions, things) For me, i find that very reassuring and calming in and of itself. It feels more manageable.

i remember reading somewhere that when planes are flying on auto pilot they are "going in the wrong direction" something like 95% of the time, and they stay on course through a near constant process of "auto correcting" when they deviate off course. So if we mess up then we are nudged in the direction to keep us on track. " "I am told that the automatic pilot in an airplane does not work by locking onto a course and stick­ing to it. Instead, it steers back and forth over the path of an assigned course and makes the neces­sary corrections when it senses that it has strayed. In reality, the auto pilot is on course only 5 or 10% of the time. The other 90 or 95% of the time, it is off course and correcting for its deviation. I, too, must make continuous adjustments. I have stopped expecting myself to be perfectly on course. I am bound to make plenty of mistakes, but I am learning to accept mistakes as an inevitable part of the adventure of living." ---from Daily Reader

i need to find the post to quote it, but it was something docB said a while ago that I agree with. We are having a positive effect. What we write and say and do does have a positive effect. here it is, i found it

I don't conflate "magic" with "science." I also don't consider magnetism to be "magic." However I do agree that it most definitely is dependent on the individual frame of reference that a person holds, their belief system.

i have never heard anywhere (until this post) that turning on a faucet or using an umbrella are "magic." I have always considered them as simple mechanical devices. And the fatality rate for wingsuit jumpers is one in 500. However, if that is a person's frame of reference for magic, then so be it.

In recovery I learned this regarding anger. True anger flares like a match when it is first lit, and then sputters out after a few seconds. So that is the duration of anger, sputters for a few seconds and then is gone. If it goes beyond that and lasts longer (the anger) then that is me pouring gasoline on the fire and making it a conflagration. it has been very helpful for me in knowing what portion of anger is "OK" (a few seconds only) and what portion is "me pouring gasoline on the fire" (anything beyond a few seconds) that is then my responsibility to well stop doing.

One of my favorite teachings (i love the stories of the sages) is the sage who even while young performed miracles, however the teaching of our tradition (then and now) is to NOT publicize these. So when miracles occurred around him, he would erase the memory from any bystanders who happened to see the miracles. They are not publicized because it sends the wrong message, and that is not the goal or destination, and it can lead people astray (i.e. trying to develop the powers, putting an individual person on a pedestal, the opposite of humble) and detract from the message of relationship with God. Relationship with God (in many traditions) is the goal and message, not parlor tricks.

i would be interested to hear from practitioners in those paths mentioned (bold above) regarding the view that Jesus and Buddha are "magicians." My understanding is that while psychic abilities may (and often do) develop as a byproduct of this or that path, they are a byproduct and not the destination. Whereas in magic, the "psychic power" (or "supernatural" power) to control and manipulate IS the goal and destination . I had it explained to me this way some time ago: The development of psychic powers is not considered the primary goal but rather a by-product of the spiritual journey toward Nirvana. The Buddha cautioned against becoming attached to or seeking out these powers, as they can be a distraction from the ultimate goal of spiritual liberation.

no it is not just semantics. and no it is not just another word for the same thing. That would make for a good thread topic, for those who seek to (a) clarify explore understand the difference between magic and divinity, and (b) differentiate between them. just like there is a difference between big G "God" and little g "gods." It would be interesting to hear from many who may be on a variety of paths, regarding their own frames of reference. My understanding (frame of reference) is that magic is not a path to divinity. Rather it is an obstacle, barrier, impediment. Since this thread topic is "God interacting with humans" a different thread might prevent it from going too far off topic. On the other hand, anyone whose path includes God, then those views on magic are relevant to the topic. As it relates to "God interacting with humans"

pops needle in arm of chair where I sew, peaceful calm embroidering.