Uncle Screwtape
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Everything posted by Uncle Screwtape
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But I have told you it is only considered or thought of or described as such for the benefit of talking about it, which is why the TTC famously comes with that caveat in the very first line. In experience, there is no attachment, subtle or otherwise. Thinking stops. As I said previously, all judgements and estimates of the source are suspended. There is no calling it one thing or another. And when one's attachment to names has been overcome, it really doesn't matter what you call it. Nice question. I don't know the answer. I will think about it. What's the Buddhist view?
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Well, I did say that I don't know very much about Buddhism and that was revealed in my posts. But your insistence that Taoist ideas necessarily conclude in reification shows that you are at least as ignorant of my path as I am of yours. I have had to describe using words something that words cannot approach. (I did make that clear more than once.) As I said, I am thinking of it in those terms for the benefit of this discussion, but when it comes down to the experience, there is no thinking. I respect your path and have no doubts that it is for you what you say it is, even though you do doubt that mine is what I say it is. (I'll live! ) I don't really see us movng on from here. While some might consider it discourteous that you would come to a Taoist forum to say Buddhism is better, I happen to think you're well intentioned; so I will just thank you and wish you all the best.
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There is no reification of the non-conceptual. Not ultimately. That is the point I am making. Taoism deals with this over and over again. You don't believe me but I assure you it is the case. There is a place in Taoism for concepts and a place where concepts are abandoned. It isn't a paradox; not to Taoists anyway. Like I said, I don't know much about Buddhism. When it comes to what it can do for a person I will bow to your greater knoweldge and take your word for it. But you are simply and demonstrably wrong in your assertions about Taoism; or, at least, the limits it has for you are not the limits it has for others. Just because you cannot see in it what you see in Buddhism that does not mean it is not there. After all, I find Buddhism limiting for me, but I would not for a moment imagine that is how Buddhism really is for everyone. I can only really say again that the formless realm of Buddhism that is not considered to be one thing or another and is not named . . . that's Taoism too. Believe me or don't believe me. It really doesn't matter. I have quite enjoyed the discussion so far and that's what counts.
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Any fellow Taoists in Los Angeles?
Uncle Screwtape replied to Encephalon's topic in General Discussion
There's an I Kuan Tao temple in El Monte. I visited it recently. The people there were very nice. There is another temple in Alhambra. I have not been to that one but a friend og mine volunteers and if she is anything to go by, they'll be nice there too. -
Taomeow: Knowledgeable, experienced, passionate, presents Tao in awe-inspiring beauty, has a relationship with the I Ching that I hope to have one day.
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the reason why you should not try to escape the world
Uncle Screwtape replied to TTT's topic in General Discussion
I think Taoism teaches us to work within the illusion. That this is how we engage with the world and, as such, the world and everything in it is real enough. Of course we know about non-duality, but I don't see that the duality needs to be negated. Taoism talks about alignment, not negating. The three realms of people, events and things; substance without form and form without substance; and time, space and the universe, are to be brought together. With the world of physical things where we begin, in just the same way we build foundations before constructing the rest of the house. The duality and non-duality exist side by side. There is movement within stillness and stillness within movement. Apparent paradoxes but not really. I think it depends where we shfit our focus to at any one time. Sometimes we need a broad field of vision that excludes nothing, but sometimes we need to zero in on a detail. For me, I understood so much more about Taoism when I began to look at the things it said as either applying to the lower three realms or to the higher ones and knowing exactly where each belongs. I know dividing up and detailing and labeling is something a lot of people think we ought not to do, but Taoism was handed down by people who did exactly that. The wuji, taiji, yin-yang, bagua sequences is an exacmple of such a thing. They broke down infinite complexity to its working parts then built it up again back toward infinity and oneness. And when wuji gave way to taiji they understood that stillness did not end and movement begin; rather, stillness is the unchanging hub around which the ten thousand things revolve in time and space. It's all happening now. -
If that is the case then I quite agree. The attachment to such things is relinquished. I think sometimes this idea is taken to an extreme and attempts ae made at total negation of the self, the world and everything in it; whereas Taoism, I believe, teaches us how to understand and work within these things to the benefit of ourselves and of others.
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I am surprised by how much the I Ching is overlooked by those on the Taoist path. I think it teaches us so much about how Tao works and how to become part of the processes ourselves. I only really started to understand the I Ching when I read the Ta Chuan (Great Treatise) which is one of the Ten Wings of the I Ching. The Wilhelm I Ching has the Ta Chuan translated and you can get it on its own from Stephen Karcher. It brought the I Ching to life for me. I consider the I Ching to be, first and foremost, a great teacher. People say a book can never teach as much as human, and normally I would agree but not in this case. It is my experience that the hexagrams got inside me and worked on changing me from within. My patterns of thinking have changed and I now begin to see the complex dynamics of change in the world and in people. As a book of divination I use it less and less, but it is still a very potent tool in that regard. I have recently purchased the Eranos I Ching, which is a thing of beauty; it really is. It presents the I Ching to you in an utterly unbiased form, without commentaries, and allows you, from its 'fields of meaning' to discern for yourself the subtle nature of the Oracle and what you are being told. Hard work, mind, but worth it. Taomeow does indeed have some very insightful things to say about the I Ching, and it was she who helped me to see its 'personality'.
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I am not sure he does teach us to extinguish the body. He does say that the greatest misfortune is the self, but then in the very next verse he speaks about valuing and loving the self, too. (Chapter 13.) It seems he is trying to make it clear to us that it is the self which we must work on. By saying that without the self there would be no misfortune he is proving his point that the self is important, but nowhere does he say we should rid ourselves. In fact, the TTC and so much else in Taoism is about refining the self and, specifically, aligning it with Tao. In the Three Realms of Taoism, the lower three realms of people, events and things are to be mastered before moving on to the next level of cultivation. They are not dismissed as mere illusion and simply negated. From the I Ching onwards, recognising the self's place in the cosmic order, refining it and working (co-creating) from this position of understanding is a common theme. If there is a difference between Taoism and other systems that might well be it.
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Silence and stillness.
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Thank you all for your responses! Just one thing: I personally see a difference between manipulating and forcing. If you narrow the channel of a slow-moving river you increase its speed and then you may harness its power to make clean electricity. I believe it is the same with chi. Harnessing it and forcing it are, I believe, two very different things.
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And I am very grateful! It was actually helpful. I should have said that the first time. I know that certain organs serve different functions in Taoism beyond the biological functions we know about. If anger is stored in a particular organ, for instance, would receiving organs from an angry person make you sick in other ways? That's the kind of thing I mean.
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Thank you for your answer. But while there is no Taoist pope, there is plenty in the way of instruction based on deep knowledge and experience going back thousands of years. It usually has something to say about everything; so I was wondering.
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Lao Tzu spoke of 'wielding the Tao of the ancients to manage the existence of today'. So, far from seeing that the TTC tells me to surrender my ego and let Tao be my guide, I see that it tells me the place my ego or self (I don't believe it mentions the ego at all) has in the universe, and how to let Tao work for me and not just to me. It also tells me how to cleanse my self, to make it healthy, so that the negative aspects I once called 'ego' but which I see now as the completely unnecessary defense mechanisms surrounding my ego, are not there to cause me damage. So no, I do not see the TTC as a form of mind control. Quite the opposite, in fact. On the other hand, what we read into such things is usually a reflection of us, I think, so no two people will ever completely agree. Screwtape
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The arrogance of our pseudo understanding and self importance.
Uncle Screwtape replied to Patrick Brown's topic in General Discussion
I am afraid you are indeed wrong, and for the reasons I have already given. It really is not so simple; not so black and white. Perhaps what you are saying is true for you and you ar assuming it is true for everyone else? But I, also, could be wrong. I said nothing about focusing on the positive. I said I have a positive attitude. I see the negative everywhere. With respect, I see it in your posts. My life is by no means hell, even when it goes badly. Screwtape -
The arrogance of our pseudo understanding and self importance.
Uncle Screwtape replied to Patrick Brown's topic in General Discussion
This is not the case in my exprience. I consider myself a confident person. Others say I am, too. But I am at ease with myself. So much so I am happy to let others in. On the other hand, back when I was insecure and shy, during my teenage years, I shut myself off. I am also not yet ready to believe that nothing can be done. I have faith in human nature, even though so much of what I see tests that faith. I see us, as a race, still stumbling around, blinking in the light, trying to make sense of ouselves and or place in the universe, but that we'll make it in the end. But then I have a generally positive attitude and it has so far served me well. I can imagine, however, a more bitter experience of the world than mine would lead to a very different view. Screwtape -
The Tao that can be taught is not the eternal Tao.
Uncle Screwtape replied to Patrick Brown's topic in General Discussion
I was once so far away from being able to be spontaneous that I needed guidance in that regard. My conditioning had left me in far too many tangled knots to simply let go and expect that to work. I liken it to piano playing: it takes a good teacher and lots of practice to play beautifully and spontaneously. Plus, of course, there are many arts and practices associated with Taoism. A person who is interested in those would need the help of an experienced teacher. Screwtape -
Hello, Patrick. Divination, far from taking me away from the moment, plants me directly in it. Nor does it fuel any sort of desire in me for things to be other than what they are. Within me already exist natural desires. These are not selfish or materialistic. They are part of what makes me me and are what drives me on my journey through life. There are things I want to do, to experience and to achieve and those things arise from me as naturally as my hair, the colour of my eyes and my taste for sweet things. There is absolutely no need at all for the pursuit of those things to lead to anything negative. There is always that danger, of course, but the I Ching can and does guide me through those dangers safely. The way you describe is a wonderful way to go through life; but the way of wishing to shape one's own fate can be wonderful too, and just as fulfilling and free from suffering. Respectfully, Screwtape
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I think the I Ching has many purposes, which are revealed slowly to those who engage with her. The I Ching has become part of me and has started a type of alchemical process, changing me from within. It could be that the original purpose, if there was one, has been lost and is accessible only to those who have shown the most commitment. Since I am not one of those proposed people, I really wouldn't know. But I cannot subscribe to the idea that the I Ching is 'just a book'. She is, for me, more than that: the pages, glue and print are representative of (again, this is only what I believe) a consciousness -- a wisdom. And how I treat those pages is a marker for the respect I have for that wisdom and for that which speaks through them. Cleaning hands and using silk may be only a pointless ritual to some, but to me it shows the right state of mind to get the most from the Oracle. If ceremony can help me to enter into the moment fully, then I am all for it. All I can say is that there is a definite correlation between my growing respect for the I Ching and the knowledge that has been revealed to me. But that is just my experience. Screwtape
