Keith108

Pat's friday burnt ends Round and round, eating, shitting Cold morning, train horn

Ah well, the thread has been contributed to. My work here is finished.

That's a projection. There was no demeaning intent. By "cherry picking" I meant taking a short teaching out of a much greater context. I honestly don't what the second half of the statement is referring to.

Cherry picking teaching words will lead to misunderstandings like this. The context of that type of talk is that before identification with a "self" there is no good or bad, right or wrong, etc. That is the basic teaching of shunyata. If someone has digested that teaching, then "everything is perfect". Actually, there is another saying that says "each thing is complete", which I think works a little better. As Stirling said, this is an experiential view, not a philosophical one. It takes a degree of openness, and also a willingness to put down our cherished beliefs, ideas, and opinions, to digest this. Fixed attitudes just solidify the "I, me, mine" viewpoint, and dukkha (suffering) rolls on both for ourselves and those we come in contact with. No one in their right mind would say the world is perfect from a mundane point of view. In fact, in terms of human behavior, it's the exact opposite. That's samsara. Now we find ourselves back in "two truths" territory, as we discussed in a different thread. With the wisdom of waking up to our true self, we can help ourselves and others. Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking. I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull out a few quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is talking about, as well. Of course, without having the context of the words, "everything is perfect" can be a form of spiritual bypassing. Sort of like "God has a plan". That's my two cents, anyway.

Not hot nor cold Cold kills, hot kills, what to do? The leaves have fallen

Yes, you both have stated the gist of it. When some people read the Heart Sutra, they think it is nihilistic. Here is a snippet: "Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they do not appear or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease. Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of eyes and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness." You can see why someone might conclude that. But, the Heart Sutra points out original emptiness (shunyatta). It's half of the equation. If we pair the view of the Heart Sutra, with everyday action, then we can act in a way doesn't cause suffering for ourselves and others.

Here is poem about the thing that never changes: From here.

This reminds of the "two truths" model of looking at the world. Ultimately, there is no enlightenment/nothing to do. And yet, from a mundane viewpoint, practice is necessary. A shift away from self - reference (kensho) is necessary. Digesting the experience is necessary. In other words, stages. But to think of it terms of stages reifies the self view. So, we just practice and see what happens! The best words I have ever read on the subject can be found here: Bassui's Talk on One Mind. _/|\_ Keith

Probably half of Zen, or thereabouts. The Linji/Korean Seon/Rinzai instruction is to investigate the hwadu (word - head). In the Korean tradition, we raise the question "what am I?". This strong self inquiry serves to do the same thing - exhaust the discursive mind, and cause a shift of view. _/|\_ Keith

This seems useful for this thread. We search for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, not realizing we are holding on to it already.

Hi Tommy, Each of us has everything we need (even though, originally there is no "each of us"). Enlightenment is a step back into our true self, not a step forward into some altered state. There is no "advanced" Buddhism. Complicated is not advanced, it's just adding frost to snow. There is no higher or lower, no phases, no levels. Trace back your thoughts, opinions, ideas, beliefs...where do they come from? Ask yourself that sincerely, and the clouds will clear. It helps to work this through with a teacher. That's just my bs though, you have try it out yourself. _/|\_ Keith

I actually looked up cognitive to make sure I was reading this correctly. Usually, people complain about it being too obtuse.

comment removed...it was off topic and unnecessary

The phrase is "don't know". When ZM Seung Sahn came to the states, he didn't speak English. So, as he learned, what he taught was conveyed in a kind of choppy English. He often said that he didn't teach Zen, he taught "don't know". This give you an idea of how important he felt that teaching was. I tend to agree about it's similarity to wu wei, and the rest of what you wrote. See the parable of the arrow.

This is so good...a good lesson in there somewhere.

Wonderful! Buddhist practice is a kind of experiment, isn't it? There is the experiment of practice, the result of which must be directly experienced, no faith in a higher power required. Just sit down, be quiet, and see what happens. What am I? Don't know............

Haha! I think I just did a "yes, but" !

Perhaps. But, since this is a thread in the Buddhist Discussion forum, enlightenment in the Buddhist sense is simply moving from incorrect view to correct view. That is, awakening to reality as it is, not as seen from the view of a separate self or spirit. The Chinese character for "Buddha" is translated as "awakened person". Even that isn't correct though, as the concept of a "person" is erroneous. _/|\_

Hi Tommy I can assure you my friend, I am not trying to help you to understand anything. Understanding won't help you. Breathing is just breathing, It isn't a spiritual act, unless we just go ahead and call every act a spiritual act. Zen isn't a philosophical pursuit. Any philosophical explanations point at something, but aren't the thing. That thing has to be awakened to and digested through direct experience. When the head is spinning with thoughts, look at that. Who is thinking? Where do these thoughts come from? Are they "mine"? Are they inside? or outside? or neither? Only go straight, don't know. _/|\_ Keith

I really didn't want to wade into this, as the OP is a teacher in my tradition, and I know her background well. These discussions can get personal, and I am not interested in engaging in that. Don't know is simply the point before we assign a value to an experience. It's the space before self oriented thinking, before ideas and opinions take root. If you are familiar with the 12 Links of Dependent Origination, it is the point of Phassa, usually translated as "contact". This occurs when the subject, object, and consciousness come together. This is generally though of as the link that can be broken, ending the cycle of samsara. Yes-but mind is the all the ideas and opinions that the self view throws up to try and stay relevant. The view of a separate, independently originated self is very pernicious, and can be difficult to let go of. I know I haven't. So, I practice. Jane wrote a book about a 100 day solo book she did, which may be of interest to readers of this thread: https://wisdomexperience.org/product/one-hundred-days-solitude/ Hope that helps! _/|\_

Tiger ate the pig A mouse eating the cat food Cat bowl is broken