Vajra Mind

52 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

For one Hinduism, aka Sanatana Dharma, the eternal law, not founded by mankind or a person at a certain time or in a certain place...  (granted some its cultural and religious parts are not easily adapted to western ways)

 

(btw, "eternal" as you may know is not kosher to some ways)

 

I see. I will do further reading in that matter. 

Thanks. 

On 1/20/2024 at 6:34 AM, old3bob said:

 

nope, there are other schools that teach beyond changing realms...Buddhism is the young pup on the block.

Can you please share more please. Something I can read or find?

On 1/6/2024 at 2:41 AM, snowymountains said:

I believe that what the Orphics taught may bear some loose similarities to the realms being are impermanent and a way to break the cycle between impermanent realms.

Eg when someone dies they go to the lower world but not forever.

Prior to rebirth s/he can drink the water of forgetfulness and have a rebirth, or , if they know and follow the Orphic teachings, they may drink the water of knowledge and break the cycle of ignorance.

 

The similarities are there but they're loose.

Interesting. I will be reading about that. 

Thanks 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said:

I hear you.  However, the verses state there is an ummah, a community, not individuals, which is doing, presently, good which can never be denied.  Never.  A whole community.

 

Yes. There is Hadith that even one person can be called or resurrected as Ummah (nation/community). I will get that at the end of the post. 

To answer your question I have 2 sources from Quran and from Hadith

First: Quran verse 16:120 

Indeed, Ibrahim was a nation obedient to Allah upright, and not he was of the polytheists

The word here nation is "Ummah" = nation was used to describe just one person "Abraham" because he was an example to others to follow. 

Second: Hadith Musnad Ahmad (Sorry I could not find an English source to this Hadith):

عن نُفيل بن هشام بن سعيد بن زيد بن عمرو بن نُفيل عن أبيه، عن جده قال: كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بمكة، هو وزيد بن حارثة، فمر بهما زيد بن عمرو بن نُفيل، فدعوه إلى سُفرٍ لهما، فقال: يا ابن أخي، إني لا آكل مما ذُبح على النُّصب، قال: فما رُؤيَ النبيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بعد ذلك أكَلَ شيئاً مما ذُبح على النُّصب. قال: قلت: يا رسول الله، إن أبي كان كما قد رأيت وبلغك، ولو أدرككَ لآمنَ بك واتَّبعك، فاستغفِرْ له، قال: نعم، فأَستغفِرُ له، فإنه يبعث يومَ القيامة أُمَّةً واحدةً

Mohammed is talking about one guy named (zaid bin amro bin nifail) who died before time of Mohammed that he will be resurrected in the day of judgment by himself alone as an Ummah. 

So yes the word ummah while means nation can be referred to one person too in Arabic. 

Up to here, this has been suffienct coverage in my opinion. There are further sources from rest of Hadith, Tafsir and Sirah to establish a hateful ideology, but I have no desire to create negative karma for myself or others. I wish peace to all beings.  

On 1/3/2024 at 8:30 PM, Daniel said:

If you need more, there is a hadith where Muhammad defers to the Torah:

 

 

https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/abudawood/033_sat.html#:~:text=They placed a cushion for,who is learned among you.

 

Is there a problem with the translation above?  Is there context in the hadith that is missing here?

You probably know that Hadith is graded by Hadith scholars according to the chain of narrators (sanad) into Sahih (well verified) or Hasan (less verified but acceptable) or Daif (weak not reliable). 

The story in this Hadith came from several sources (chain of narrators) not just one (Sunan Abi Dawud Book has many Hadiths some are Sahih, Hasan, weak or fake). 

This Hadith you referred me to has Grade Hasan (less reliable than Sahih but acceptable). Here is the link for the grade:

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4449

This same story was told by more verified and reliable chain of narrators Grade Sahih: 

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4452

ّThe second more reliable source (Sahih) has different content, as it does not have the highlighted part, but it does not change the narrative that Quran and all muslim scholars acknowledge and believe in Torah, Gospel and other books as divine revelation by Allah, however as stated by Quran verses (posted before) they had missing and corrupted elements and they have been abrogated by Quran itself (posted before) the most complete, accurate and last revelation by Allah.

Moreover, Mohammed did not force Christians to convert to Islam even though Christians believed in Trinity and Jesus as son of god, However that does not mean that he approved their belief:

5:47 And let judge (the) People (of) the Injeel by what has revealed Allah in it. And whoever (does) not judge by what revealed Allah then those [they] (are) the defiantly disobedient

You have already seen and criticized the Injeel (the Gospel). Yet Quran is ordering Christians to follow it! It does not mean Quran approves the current version as a whole or the Trinity as a valid belief. 

Again I say regarding defective scripture (corruption or lost portions) No one in the Islamic world can have a say with certainty what exactly has been lost or corrupted, simply because neither Quran nor Mohammed gave specific accounts or details. So all muslims scholars are doing is giving educated guesses. This is similar to the Jews said case of Uzair son of God. Mohammed/Quran did not give specific details so muslims scholars still puzzled by this verse regarding Uzair son of God. 

Let see some relevant Hadith to our discussion:

1) Theses 2 Hadiths are Grade Sahih agreed upon by both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (sorry the link does not show the grade and I only have Arabic sources for the grade but Bhukhari in general is considered Grade Sahih)

https://sunnah.com/muslim:2793

2) This is also a summary of what happened to Jews of Madina, narrated in the Sahih Bhukhari (again no grade shown but in general Sahih Bhukhari is considered all Sahih and most reliable after Quran):

Narrated Ibn `Umar:

5) Jami Alturmithi. Grade Sahih 

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1606

6) In every Islamic prayer surat al Fateha is recited which ends with these verses

1:6 Guide us (to) the path, the straight

1:7 (The) path (of) those You have bestowed (Your) Favors on them, not (of) those who earned (Your) wrath on themselves and not (of) those who go astray.

From Jami Al Turmuthi. Grade Hasan:

7) Mishlat elmisbah. Grade Sahih

Abu Huraira reported God’s messenger as saying, "By Him in whose hand Muhammad’s soul is, anyone of this people, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in my message, will be among those who go to hell.”

https://sunnah.com/mishkat:10

8) Sunan an Nisai. Grade Hasan

It was narrated that Safwan bin 'Assal said:

On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said:

f

 

"All of the messangers brought the same message."

 

Then

 

Muhammad's message was not new.  It's the same message in the of Moses.  It's the same message of Jesus.  All the messages are the same.

 

"the same message" = "everything that has been revealed to you already".

 

Further, if Muhammad could not read nor write, the fact that the messages are all identical is a clear proof of Muhammad's station?  If there is deviation, that disproves his station.

 

Therefore, logically, wouldn't it make sense for Muhammad to preach? 

Yes. The core message is oneness of Allah, believe his his massagers. and the last day. 

BUT

This core message is wrapped by much further updated and complete and last instructions/revelation (Sharia) which overrides or abrogates all previous Sharias and must be followed. I will get Hadiths to support that at the end of the post. 

On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said:

Regarding the defective scriptures.  I'd like to hear your interpretation of the hadith I brought on Jan 3rd 9:30AM - LINK.  In that hadith, it seems that the jewish people, during Muhammad's lifetime, were in possession of a divine, correct, Torah.  Muhammad deferred to it?

Yes. I will reply to that hadith too at the end of the post. 

But regarding defective scripture (corruption or lost portions) No one in the Islamic world can have a say with certainty what exactly has been lost or corrupted, simply because neither Quran nor Mohammed gave specific accounts or details. So all muslims scholars are doing is giving educated guesses.   

On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said:

I hear you.  However, the verses state there is an ummah, a community, not individuals, which is doing, presently, good which can never be denied.  Never.  A whole community.

Yes. There is Hadith that even one person can be called or resurrected as Ummah (nation/community). I will get that at the end of the post. 

On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said:

Let's talk about Jesus.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 1:45 PM, Vajra Mind said:

Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet, messenger and messiah who came to Jews with his Gospel. 

 

Does Torah and Quran matches one-to-one?

 

I'm sure you know this already, but, the Torah doesn't mention Jesus.  However.  Something that many don't know is... the word "messiah" in the Torah doesn't actually mean what many assume that it means.  In the Torah, it means one which is annointed as a savior.  There are actually many messiahs according to judaism.  There is a messiah in each and every generation.

Well. Remember I am ex-muslim and do not approve how Quran views other religions so I am playing the devils advocate here.

But from Quran/Islamic perspective the real identity and story of Jesus (Essa) is told by Quran and he must be acknowledged exactly how the Quran or Allah says because Allah is All knowing while both Torah and Gospel have been partially corrupted. 

On 1/9/2024 at 5:30 AM, Daniel said:

All of the book of John?  "None get to the father except through me"?

 

This is false?

No no no, you have confused two different characters. I have mentioned him in one of my posts under the name Yahya as well. The Book of John is the book of Yahya. Not John the disciple of Jesus but John the Baptist (Yahya) he is cousin of Jesus and son of prophet Zacharia (not Jewish prophet Zacharia but a later figure). 

Both Yahya (John the baptist) and Zacharia his father are prophets however John is also a messenger and he had his own book and he was sent to Sabian. This is a verse that concerns him:

19:7

"O Zakariya! Indeed, We [We] give you glad tidings of a boy his name (will be) Yahya, not We (have) assigned [for] it from before (this) name."

19:12

"O Yahya! Hold the Scripture with strength." And We gave him [the] wisdom (when he was) a child

2:62 

Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

I have read the rest of your posts Daniel. I really do not know what to say. My opinion does not matter here. I can only tell you some of what I know. There is a scholar in Al Azhar University in Egypt, his name is Dr. Tariq Nasr. He is reformer and closer in his interpretation of Quran to the new Islamic sect called "Quraini". This Qurani sect rejects Hadith and base their belief on their own interpretations of Quran alone and they have different interpretations than Sunni and Shia schools. They are still a minority group but may be they will grow further and maybe there is some hope for peace and tolerance between these two religions. 

In my next post, I will start covering some Hadith and other replies. 

Hi Daniel and all, 

Apologies for the delayed response, I was very busy lately and still busy but I can take break to give some more replies. 

Before I start with Hadith and reply to your posts. There is one more Arabic perspective issue I can share before moving on. 

On 1/5/2024 at 6:59 PM, Vajra Mind said:

29:46  And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."
29:47  And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.
29:48  And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.
29:49  Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

The the following was my reply, I mentioned it is much clearer in Arabic context without giving further explanation because it will be too overwhelming. But I think it would be more fair if I did add a piece of information about Arabic grammar

On 1/5/2024 at 6:59 PM, Vajra Mind said:

Verse 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.

You said this is a Jewish scribal customs BUT

This is completely out of context Daniel, the verse is directed to Mohammed as he did not write or read, has he been doing that then people would suspect (doubted) that he has knew the scriptures by learning. It is much clearer in Arabic context.

In English context the word “you/your” can refer to singular and pleural alike but in Arabic context the word you/your comes in singular, dual, and pleural forms

Your right hand

(in singular/one person) is yamenok

(in dual/two persons) is yamenokoma

(in pleural/three and more) is yamenokom

Likewise,

The verse 29:46  the “you” is pleural

In verse 29:48 the “you” is singular directed to Mohammed. Allah is talking to Mohammed.

The verses shift from pleural to singular. I hope that any confusion is gone now. Is this a problem of translators or language limitations? not sure what to call it. 

I checked all the previous posts. I did not see any new verses to be discussed. 

Therefore, I will add few clarifying verses to remove any further doubts. 

9:97 The bedouins (are) stronger (in) disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely that not they know (the) limits (of) what (has) revealed Allah to His Messenger. And Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise.

9:98 And among the bedouins (is he) who takes what he spends (as) a loss, and he awaits for you the turns (of misfortune). Upon them (will be) the turn (of) the evil. And Allah (is) All-Hearer, All-Knower

9:99 But among the bedouins (is he) who, believes in Allah and the Day the Last, and takes what he spends (as) means of nearness with Allah and blessings (of) the Messenger. Behold! Indeed, it (is) a means of nearness for them. will admit them Allah to His Mercy. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Bedouins in Arabic "A'arab" اعراب

They are nomads Arabs as oppose to city-dwellers Arabs such as people of Madina or Mecaa.

Quran describes groups of Bedouins. The first and second verses described Bedouins groups as disbelievers. 

But the last group in verse 9:99, The Bedouins are described as believers and will receive Allah mercy.

Are they not muslims? 

Of course they are muslims but converts from the Bedouins, but Quran is describing their origin Bedouins. One example being a companion of Mohammed called Abu thar Al ghafari ابو ذر الغفاري

Just like that, Quran describes the Jewish and Christians converts to Islam as being believers from the people of the book referring to their origins. 

4:145 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and they wish that they differentiate between Allah and His Messengers and they say, "We believe in some and we disbelieve in others." And they wish that they take between that a way.

4: 146 Those - they (are) the disbelievers truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a punishment humiliating.

Another verses emphasizes believing in ALL Messengers (including Jesus the Messiah) Not some and some. 

The position of Mecca (Ka'aba) in relation to Abraham (Ibrahim)

2:127 And when (was) raising Ibrahim the foundations of the House and Ismail, (saying), "Our Lord! Accept from us. Indeed You! [You] (are) the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

22:29 And when We assigned to Ibrahim (the) site (of) the House, "That (do) not associate with Me anything and purify My House for those who circumambulate and those who stand and those who bow, (and) those who prostrate.

22: 27 And proclaim to [the] mankind [of] the Pilgrimage; they will come to you (on) foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every mountain highway distant

3:96 Indeed, (the) First House set up for the mankind (is) the one which (is) at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for the worlds.

So Ibrahim himself build the Ka'ba (house of Mecca) in his own hand before any other temple and the first one for humankind. 

In Summary 

We have Jewish and Christians believers awaiting the coming of Mohammed as reveled to them in the Original Torah and Gospel according to Quran. (believers)

We have Jewish and Christians believers became converts at the time of Mohammed (believers) and who did not convert (disbelievers). 

Over the 23 years of Quran revelation. There were many Jewish interactions with Mohammed cited in the Quran including waging wars and expelling them from their lands. Eventually the last revelation pertaining to Christians and Jews was Surah al Tawabah which is the only Surah in Quran which did not start with "In the name of Allah most compassionate and merciful".

9:29 Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what has made unlawful Allah and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the reparation (from) willingly, while they (are) subdued.

Last Daniel, be aware that if you confront muslims in the future, with only few verses they might use this verse against you and call you a cherry picker just like Quran described some Jews

2:58 Then you (are) those (who) kill yourselves and evict a party of you from their homes, you support one another against them in sin and [the] transgression. And if they come to you (as) captives, you ransom them, while it (was) forbidden to you their eviction. So do you believe in part (of) the Book and disbelieve in part? Then what (should be the) recompense (for the one) who does that among you, except disgrace in the life (of) the world; and (on the) Day of [the] Resurrection they will be sent back to (the) most severe punishment? And not (is) Allah unaware of what you do.

From my side Quran was covered to a sufficient level. I do not think that adding any more verses will have add any further value to the discussion. If you have any questions/comments Daniel or anyone else please post them. 

However I will only reply after 2 weeks and I will discuss both your questions and start Hadith. 

Just now, NaturaNaturans said:

You are doing a great job, @Vajra Mind. It i not often you see these topics discussed openly by people with understanding of the faith. I belive that the lack of open discussion is a way bigger danger then any text or religion itself.

Thank you so much NaturaNaturans. I really appreciate it. 

I have 3 scientific papers I must publish while trying to make these replies. It is a bit tiring. 

I will call the day and look at the rest of his posts later. We may go to the Hadith later. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

2 important details are above. 

 

First, here is an excellent example of what I referred to earlier regarding covenants.  The Quran greatly discourages breaking covenants, commitments, and treaties.  This is one of the problems the Quran is coming to solve among the jewish people and others.  "Don't break your covenants, contracts, and agreements, especially with Allah/God".  Those who disbelieve ALWAYS are breaking their covenants.  They do not believe in a day of judgement.  ( Surah 8, specifically ayah 56 ). 

 

Second, and most important, please notice, those jewish people who believed and did righteous deeds, past tense, before the the Quran was ever revealed, will "abide forever" in paradise.  This proves that the message of the Quran is identical to what was previously revealed.  The quran asserts this itself in other places.  ( 42:52 ).  It's true, the Torah and judaism is complicated and a bit twisted.  I love it, and I think it has a lot of value.  Clearly the Quran is teaching that what was revealed prior to the Quran warrants great and eternal reward.  The message MUST be the same else, there is a different reward?  That's tribalism. That's not Isalm.  That's not what the Quran is teaching.

 

Here's another example from Surah 3.  The Quran has been preaching rather harshly about the jewish people, but, it is careful to moderate it.  

 

3:108  These (are the) Verses (of) Allah. We recite them to you in truth. And not Allah wants injustice to the worlds.
3:109  And to Allah (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And to Allah will be returned the matters.
3:110  You are (the) best (of) people raised for the mankind - enjoining the right and forbidding [from] the wrong and believing in Allah. And if believed (the) People (of) the Book surely would have been good for them. Among them (are) [the] believers, but most of them (are) defiantly disobedient.

 

108 begins by reminding the reader that Allah/God does not want injustice and is the owner/possessor of all that exists.  Then, it does proclaim that the Muslim, the one who submits to Allah/God is the best of the world.  That can be objectionable to the non-Muslim, but, for the context of this discussion, it's important to note, the Quran reminds the reader that the jewish people have potential.

3:111  Never will they harm you except a hurt. And if they fight you, they will turn (towards) you the backs, then not they will be helped.
3:112  Struck on them the humiliation wherever that they are found except with a rope from Allah and a rope from the people. And they incurred wrath from Allah and struck on them the poverty. That (is) because they used to disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah and they killed the Prophets without right. That (is) because they disobeyed and they used to transgress.

 

This is an interesting passage if one considers what i means if jewish people are NOT turning their backs and are consistently winning military conflicts.

3:113  They are not (the) same; among (the) People (of) the Book (is) a community standing (and) reciting (the) Verses (of) Allah (in the) hours (of) the night and they prostrate.
3:114  They believe in Allah and the Day the Last and they enjoin [with] the right and forbid [from] the wrong and they hasten in the good deeds. And those (are) from the righteous.
3:115  And whatever they do of a good, then never will they be denied it. And Allah (is) All-Knowing of the God-fearing.
3:116  Indeed, those who disbelieved, never will avail [for] them their wealth and not their children against Allah anything, and those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.

 

We are not all the same.    This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier.  If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true.  They, we, me, are not all the same.  It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing.  Yes.  That is how we pray.  We are standing.  Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah.  That is the majority of our prayer ritual.   We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran.  We do believe in Allah and the Last Day.  We do what is right.  We forbid what is wrong.  We rush to do good deeds.  Per the Quran, this will never be denied.  

Again Daniel sorry, this same exact answer from my previous posts

Jews disbelieved and did not follow Mohammed instead they followed their Rabbis and defective scriptures as stated in many many verses before. Therefore they are either disbelievers or worse polytheists. 

In rejecting Mohammed, the Quran resembles them to the wrong dowers and disbelievers and killers of the prophets at the time of Jesus and all the way to the time of Moses. 

That is the "context you are missing", That is why it is important to read all the verses not just some and definitely not only the one that pertain to believers (moderate) who did not reject prophets and believed in all revelations. 

To make it overly simple if you follow Mohammed all the good stuff will be yours. If you dont then pay Jizya humbly and will be punished in the hereafter (after death). This Sunni and Shia beliefs go ask all the prominent Islamic scholars since 1400 years till today. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

The other example I had in mind when writing my reply is in Surah 2.  Critics of the Quran whom I have conversed with point to Surah 2 as an example of anti-jewish hatred, but they ignore the moderating verses.  Here's an example:

 

2:79  So woe to those who write the book with their (own) hands then, they say, "This (is) from Allah," to barter with it (for) a price little. So woe to them for what have written their hands and woe to them for what they earn.

2:80  And they say, "Never will touch us the Fire except (for) days numbered." Say, "Have you taken from Allah a covenant, so never will break Allah His Covenant? Or (do) you say against Allah what not you know?"

2:81  Yes, whoever earned evil and surrounded him with his sins - [so] those (are the) companions (of) the Fire; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:82  And those who believed and did righteous deeds, those (are the) companions (of) Paradise; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:83  And when We took (the) covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel, "Not you will worship except Allah, and with [the] parents (be) good and (with) relatives and [the] orphans and the needy, and speak to [the] people good, and establish the prayer and give the zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you (were) refusing

Wrong assumption Daniel about Anti-Jewish hatred. I will say this again 

Anti-Jewish hatred stems from the basis that Jews disbelieved and did not follow Mohammed instead they followed their Rabbis and defective scriptures as stated in many many verses before. Therefore they are either disbelievers and worse polytheists. 

In rejecting Mohammed, the Quran resembles them to the wrong dowers and disbelievers and killers of the prophets at the time of Jesus and all the way to the time of Moses. 

That is the "context you are missing", That is why it is important to read all the verses not just some and definitely not only the one that pertain to believers (moderate) who did not reject prophets and believed in all revelations. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

All of this is 100% consistent with the conclusion brought in 29:46-47, "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already."

 

Surah 29 continues... Jacob and Esau are invoked.  Lot is invoked.  There are a few others listed which, in theory, would be good for me to research... but eventually we come to 46-47 ( I'll list them again ).  And the following verses confirm it as well.  

 

29:46  And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."
29:47  And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.
29:48  And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.
29:49  Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

 

 Here the Quran is preaching:  "Didn't you scribe the book with your own hands?"  This is pointing to the jewish scribal custom where we write the Torah very carefully, pronouncing each word, then writing it.  "If you write it, and you know it, your own book, you MUST accept what is in this book too.  It is the same message."

 

What follows immediately after this is a brief interlude where the Muslim is speaking to the jewish person.  The jewish person challenges, and the Quran tells the Muslim how to respond.  The Surah ends encouraging the Muslim that those who disbelieve in spite of all this will be punished.  They, the Muslim, does not need to take any actions against the disbelieving jewish person.

I am sorry Daniel, I am forced to say you put many sentences with personal interpretations from misunderstanding already covered in earlier post.

NOTE to the readers this verse "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." 

is NOT a Quran verse, it is just Daniels own words according to what he understood. So do not be confused. 

Verses 29:46-47 have been already explained. 

Verse 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.

You said this is a Jewish scribal customs BUT

This is completely out of context Daniel, the verse is directed to Mohammed as he did not write or read, has he been doing that then people would suspect (doubted) that he has knew the scriptures by learning. It is much clearer in Arabic context.

Verse 29:49 Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

Again Breasts is wrong it is Chests in reference to the HEARTS. 

Again it refers to the believers of Mohammed not the one who rejected his revelation as explained in many previous verses in my posts. 

Not only Quran mentions argument but also Jews and Christians who rejected Mohammed revelations and did not convert are allowed to live under Islam as long as they pay Jizya and they are fully humbled. This does not exclude that they are disbelievers and polytheists and to be punished according to many verses already posted describing them. 

9:29 Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what has made unlawful Allah and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the reparation (from) willingly, while they (are) subdued.

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source.  This is a recurring theme in the Quran.  It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. 

 

Surah 29 begins:

 

29:1  Alif Laam Meem.

29:2  Do think the people that they will be left because they say, "We believe" and they not will be tested?

29:3  And indeed, We tested those who (were) from before them. And will surely make evident Allah those who (are) truthful and He will surely make evident the liars.

 

The Quran is reminding the jewish people that Allah, God, is testing them **just like the jewish people were tested before**.  This is no different.  The clear signs were given to Moses, and the jewish people disbelieved.  The Quran, interestingly, is moving backwards in the story.  Starting with the exodus story which is generally considered by jewish people to be a private revelation, but, the Quran also gently reminds that the revelation of the clear signs also happened to Pharaoh and the egyptians ( 28:3 ).  Here the Quran goes back to the story of Noah where the whole world would have been witness to the clear signs of the great flood.  Also, the story of Abraham, which is also a universalist story.  The Quran does not detail this, but, for those who are familiar with Torah, the God of Abraham was revealing itself to the whole world through Abraham, it was not limited to the jewish people.  By going backwards in time, each prior revelation is more and more general including more and more people who are not jewish.  This is deconstructing tribalism.

These general verses pertaining to all people not jews only that Allah created people to test them. 

Then you mentioned (38:3) story of Pharaoh and Egyptians. 

Before Abraham there was Noah and other prophets to other people. 

Okey.... ?!

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd.

 

وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣

 

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) .  Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time.

Yes, Indeed no dispute that Allah is describing his older book (Torah) as enlightenment to mankind and guidance and mercy. 

Yes may remember or or recollect or reflect on it or contemplate on it. 

But

1. the same description was given to the Gospel of Jesus as I mentioned in my post 

5:46 And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

2. Both were corrupt and lost verses 5:13-14. 

3. Quran has supreme authority, complete and last revelation  5:48-49. 

4. There is No timeless revelation mentioned in this verse nor the other verses you gave references too: 

12:38 And I follow (the) religion (of) my forefathers, Ibrahim, and Ishaq and Yaqub. Not was for us that we associate with Allah any thing. That (is) from (the) Grace (of) Allah upon us, and upon the mankind but most (of) the men (are) not grateful.

22:25 Indeed, those who disbelieved and hinder from (the) way (of) Allah and Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, which We made it for the mankind, equal, (are) the resident therein and the visitor; and whoever intends therein of deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste of a punishment painful.

Also the Word NAS just means people. If you are not convinced here is the same word but adding ALL before it: 

34:28 And not We have sent you except to all mankind (as) a giver of glad tidings and (as) a warner. But most [the] people (do) not know.

All People/mankind 

I think this much clearer now. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

Regarding context, the intention of these verses, as I have described them is consistent starting in the previous surah 28, and, it continues consistently through surah 29.  Surah 28 retells the story of moses (Musa) in egypt.  It's a story which is well known to virtually all jewish people.  We learn this story multiple times each year.  I have now read it approx. a hundred times.  It begins:

 

28:1  Ta Seem Meem.
28:2  These (are the) Verses (of) the Book the clear.
28:3  We recite to you from (the) news (of) Musa and Firaun in truth for a people who believe.
28:4  Indeed, Firaun exalted himself in the land and made its people (into) sects, oppressing a group among them, slaughtering their sons and letting live their women. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.
28:5  And We wanted to bestow a favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them the inheritors,
28:6  And [We] establish them in the land and show Firaun and Haman and their hosts through them what they were fearing.

 

Notice:  Allah desires to bestow favor on the jewish people.  They are to be leaders, inheritors, and they are to be established in the land.  That's in support of the jewish people.  Yes, it's true we, the jewish people, are often rebuked in the Quran.  But we are also supported when we do the right thing.  It's no different than the hebrew prophets who rebuke us, but their rebuke is harsher.

 

For example In 28, the story of the burning bush is briefly mentioned.  In this story Moses is given signs to prove that he had indeed had a revelation with the god of of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.  Water was turnned to blood, the famous staff-of-moses was turned to a serpent, moses' hand turns white.  Moses was also given other signs in the Torah, but, these are omitted.  In the Quran's version, the people did not believe the signs brought by Moses:

 

28:36 But when came to them Musa with Our Signs clear, they said, "Not (is) this except a magic invented, and not we heard of this among our forefathers (of) the former (people)."

 

This is not entirely different from the story told in the Torah.  The details differ, but, the jewish people did struggle with belief repeatedly even though they were witnessing miracles.  However, in the Torah, the rebuke is much harsher, God desires to destroy them all and start over.  That's much different than what the Quran is teaching. 

In these verses Quran is telling the story of Moses and his faithful followers in ancient time and how they were saved from Firaun or Pharaoh. There is no dispute in Quran or among Muslims about Moses or his faithful followers or miracles. 

Then you are saying Jewish scripture is harsher. These verses does not seems relevant to harshness, but to make a fair comparison of harshness we can make a table of Quran verses such as: 

All the curses

All killing of prophets 

Reducing to Apes and Pigs

Number of times Wrath of Allah been upon Jews

I cover the Quran and you cover the Jewish scriptures and we assess them in quantitative way and qualitative way. Then we can decide which one is more harsh?  

PLEASE do not take what I said as condescending or something else, this is academic I am serious it would be very interesting. 

Maybe we need to decide if we want to include other punishment not relevant to Jews such as this:

5:33 Only (the) recompense (for) those who wage war (against) Allah and His Messenger and strive in the earth spreading corruption (is) that they be killed or they be crucified or be cut off their hands and their feet of opposite sides or they be exiled from the land. That (is) for them disgrace in the world and for them in the Hereafter (is) a punishment great.

3 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

OH DEAR, so both Jews and Christians have elements of their books corrupted and lost according to 5:12-13

My apologies it should be 5:13-14

Quran 29:46 

And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."

Quran 29:47 

And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

The important details here are what I wrote previously:  The book revealed to the jewish people, the Torah, brings the same message, the same teachings as in the Quran.  That is why:  "None [of them, the people of the book] reject the verses of the Quran unless they are disbelievers.  They ( we, me ) have a revelation which matches one-to-one with the Quran.  This should be simple for them ( us, me ).  Also, we worship the same god.  This is the core of what Muhammad is preaching to jewish people in the Quran.  This is not the only place this is written, I'll bring another example in a moment.

 

You said

same message. 

matches one-to-one with the Quran. 

Quran acknowledges Moses, Jesus and John the Baptists (Prophet Yahya) as prophets and messengers. It acknowledge Judaism, Christianity and Sabians as well as their books Torah, Gospel and the Book of John. They came from the same one God. 

This is common ground that every muslim know that, thats why they are called Abrahamic religions. But the devils is in the details AKA the context, the rest of the verses which clarifies what are these revelation. 

What are those revelation that the Quran is referring to? Is it what You (Daniel) assume the same one to one OR is it something else reveled and explained in the Quran itself so that we know ALL/Whole revelation NOT SOME COMMON GROUND: 

To answer this question let us look again at verses from my previous posts that are mentioning what are those revelations and who is hiding them and how are they been ignored according to Quran itself. 

7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the unlettered, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

Mohammed is reveled in the Torah according to Quran. Do Jews agree ?

Mohammed relives from them their burden and the fetter which were upon them. What are these burden that Mohammed relieved?

How do you believe in him, honor him and help him and follow the light sent down with him? Are Jews doing that?

Does Torah and Quran matches one-to one ?

3:45 When said the Angels, "O Maryam! Indeed, Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, his name (is) the Messiah, Isa, son (of) Maryam, honored in the world and (in) the Hereafter, and of those brought near (to Allah).

3:49 And (make him) a Messenger to (the) Children (of) Israel,

3:50 And confirming that which between hands of the Taurat, and so that I make lawful for you some (of) that which was forbidden to you

So Gospel also confirms the Torah, but there are amendments/extra revelations. 

Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet, messenger and messiah who came to Jews with his Gospel. 

Does Torah and Quran matches one-to-one? 

5:46 And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

5:47 And let judge (the) People (of) the Injeel by what has revealed Allah in it. And whoever (does) not judge by what revealed Allah then those [they] (are) the defiantly disobedient.

Quran is saying the Gospel (Injeel) also confirms the Torah 

YET Jesus followers must apply what the Gospel revealed according to them. So both Torah and Gospel are VALID??

Does Torah and Quran matches one-one?

5:12 And certainly took Allah a Covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel and We appointed among them two (and) ten (i.e twelve) leaders. And said Allah, "Indeed, I (am) with you, if you establish the prayer and give the zakah and you believe in My Messengers and you assist them and you loan (to) Allah a loan goodly, surely I will remove from you your evil deeds and I will surely admit you (to) gardens flow from underneath them the rivers. But whoever disbelieved after that among you, then certainly he strayed (from) the way, the right.

To keep Allah covenant and the right way to believe in my Messengers and assist them? Is Mohammed included or just Jewish Messengers?   

5:13 o for their breaking (of) their covenant We cursed them and We made their hearts hard. They distort the words from their places, and forgot a part of what they were reminded of [it]. And not you will cease to discover of treachery from them except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers.

5:14 And from those who said, Indeed we (are) Christians," We took their covenant; but they forgot a part of what they were reminded of [it]. So We aroused between them [the] enmity and [the] hatred till (the) Day (of) the Resurrection. And soon will inform them Allah of what they used to do.

OH DEAR, so both Jews and Christians have elements of their books corrupted and lost according to 5:12-13

Houston we got a problem. Now how to fix it? What is the complete and most accurate revelation ??

5:15 O People (of) the Book! Surely has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking of much. Surely has come to you from Allah a light and a Book clear

Thank you Allah and prophet Mohammed for fixing Torah and Injeel. What else you got prophet of Allah?

2:145 And even if you come (to) those who were given the Book with all (the) signs, not they would follow your direction of prayer, and not (will) you (be) a follower (of) their direction of prayer. And not some of them (are) followers (of the) direction of prayer (of each) other. And if you followed their desires from after [what] came to you of the knowledge, indeed, you (would) then (be) surely among the wrongdoers.

So disbelieves Jews wont pray to Mecca or follow you. 

Does Torah and Quran is one-to-one match still ?

Lets break the previous verses again:

Quran 29:47 

So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. 

Yes this is given in PAST TENSE referring to ancients Jews before Mohammed. 

And among these (are some) who believe therein

This needs a bit of Arabic perspective 

This is PRESENT TENSE referring to People witnessed by Mohammed and His followers in his time. 

"these" هؤلاء is ism ishara meaning a pointer word in present sense هذا هذه هؤلاء

Among them some who believe. These are some Jewish converts like Abdulla Bin Salam. 

And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.

These are the rest of you Jews who did not follow Mohammed and disbelieved him.

Now Daniel please read carefully and be patient. As I cover the rest of the verses over the coming days. 

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

What you're doing, in america, is called a bait-and-switch.  You wrote that you look forward to the quotes I would bring, then, when I bring them, you've become hostile and condscending, rather harshly accusing me of cherry picking and taking them out of context.

Okey Daniel. I apologize to you if I have been hostile and condescending, that was not my intention. 

But, I can not apologize for saying you cherry pick and impute your own understanding/personal interpretations in the verses because I would be deceiving you, myself and everyone reading and thats morally wrong.  

And yes we can learn together. But this can not work, if you can not keep doing confirmation bias taking only what apparently confirm your hypothesis and ignoring the rest. That is why I put most verses pertaining to people of the book/Jews so we have the whole CONTEXT, in doing so we avoid biases and fallacies in making conclusions. 

As I said in my last post. I am going to use your website for translation and reply to each verse you put over the coming days.

Again I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. I hope you accept my apology. 

15 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

6) accuses everyone of bias but never admits to being wrong

7) triggered by Buddha 

Yes, it is mind blowing because it does not make any sense to think that 1400 years of Arab muslims misunderstood Quran, but one Jewish man who cherry pick few verses out of hundreds more relevant verses understand better !!

But I think he has got a good intention, there are some people (from muslim and Jewish sides) working on easing the tensions between these 2 religions. I hope it works but I am pessimistic.  

I have checked the website you use for translation

https://www.islamawakened.com/

I will reply on every cherry picked verses you used using this website you have chosen, over the coming days.  

But please please please please do not hide behind excuses that your understanding is different than mine, or that 1400 years of muslims none of them understood Quran but you Daniel. It is very immature behaviour.  

Hi Daniel,  

I am going to reply to some of your misunderstanding of my personal comments. But I am not going to reply to All your misunderstanding of Quran. 

1) I have used translation from this link which I have already posted. When I say dishonest translation I am referring to this site not to you or your star Dr. Shahenaz.

On 1/3/2024 at 9:43 AM, Vajra Mind said:

https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=106

2) You posted a verse where the word "Sodoor" was translated into "Breasts" according Dr Shahenaz. I corrected that for you and told you not to worry because I will give the right translation as required. The word means "Chests" and It is actually referring to the HEARTS which hold the faith "Fe Sodoor" which is "in the chests". There is no Hearts in Breasts. Did I get a thank you? No 

3) Maybe you got upset because I said you cherry pick ?  But that is the truth Daniel, you were cherry picking then imputing personal interpretations and ignoring the (((vast majority of relevant verses))). What do you call that? 

4) When I said I pulled "most relevant verses" which are the majority. This is not cherry picking it answers all the questions you asked about (hate or disbelief) in consistent manner without rejecting some and taking some without context or understanding of the whole context in Quran. 

5) Please read my post with all the verses to get the right context. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd.

 

وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣

 

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) .  Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time.

 

Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source.  This is a recurring theme in the Quran.  It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. 

The word timeless or for all time, no such thing in the verse. you have imputed your own interpretation in the verse. 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

We are not all the same.    This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier.  If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true.  They, we, me, are not all the same.  It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing.  Yes.  That is how we pray.  We are standing.  Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah.  That is the majority of our prayer ritual.   We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran.  We do believe in Allah and the Last Day.  We do what is right.  We forbid what is wrong.  We rush to do good deeds.  Per the Quran, this will never be denied.  

If you read my posts carefully. I pulled the most relevant verses and they are pointing clearly who are the disbelievers who are not included in the mercy of Allah and those faithful who converted or were from ancient times (before Mohammed) who followed the prophets faithfully and did good deeds. 

Such verses are completely in Harmony with Hadith. There are few Hadiths (Grade Sahih) which will shed perfect clarity on those verses identifying those who believed in Mohammed and who did not. 

Now Daniel, can you interpret the following verses 59:2-5. Who were those disbelievers of the people of the book? How did they defy Allah?

59:2 He is the One Who expelled the disbelievers of the People of the Book from their homes for ˹their˺ first banishment ˹ever˺. You never thought they would go. And they thought their strongholds would put them out of Allah’s reach. But ˹the decree of˺ Allah came upon them from where they never expected. And He cast horror into their hearts so they destroyed their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So take a lesson ˹from this˺, O people of insight!

59:3 Had Allah not decreed exile for them, He would have certainly punished them in this world. And in the Hereafter they will suffer the punishment of the Fire.

59:4 This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies Allah, then Allah is truly severe in punishment.

59:5 Whatever palm trees you ˹believers˺ cut down or left standing intact, it was ˹all˺ by Allah’s Will, so that He might disgrace the rebellious.

Also, these two verses are mentioning another battle with the Jews. Can you interpret what happened and how?

33:26 And He brought down those from the People of the Book who supported the enemy alliance from their own strongholds, and cast horror into their hearts. You ˹believers˺ killed some, and took others captive.

33:27 He has also caused you to take over their lands, homes, and wealth, as well as lands you have not yet set foot on. And Allah is Most Capable of everything.

Last one Quran mentioned 2 prophets, whose is Ahmad and who is Mohammed?

61:6 And ˹remember˺ when Jesus, son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel! I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Aḥmad.” Yet when the Prophet came to them with clear proofs, they said, “This is pure magic.”

48:29 Muḥammad is the Messenger of Allah.

The point of these relevant questions in this last post is help you realized that you need an outer reference to get the right context. Like How many wars did Mohammed waged against Jews? How did it happen? Was it truly justified or based on agenda? 

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled

Jews and Christians are not the religion of truth and they are fully humbled.

9:30 The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺?

The actual Arabic word is Uzair/Ozair not Ezra. This verse caused a controversy among Islamic scholars and tradition since no one knew who is Ozair and when did Jews make such heresy.  

9:31 They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him.

Verses 9:30 and 9:31 explain why Jews are called polytheists in Quran no monotheists. 

9:33 He is the One Who has sent His Messenger with ˹true˺ guidance and the religion of truth making it prevail over all others, even to the dismay of the polytheists

7:156 Allah replied, “I will inflict My torment on whoever I will. But My mercy encompasses everything. I will ordain mercy for those who shun evil, pay alms-tax, and believe in Our revelations.

7:157 “˹They are˺ the ones who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whose description they find in their Torah and the Gospel. He commands them to do good and forbids them from evil, permits for them what is lawful and forbids to them what is impure, and relieves them from their burdens and the shackles that bound them. ˹Only˺ those who believe in him, honor and support him, and follow the light sent down to him will be successful.”

Verses 7:156-157 clearly states who are the believers again.