styrofoamdog

Ewww......

What are you saying "ew" for, Darin? That skin flake dust is quality post-heaven jing that's lost if it isn't ingested.

i found something that mentions the small heavenly orbit in a bagua article posted by mjjbecker.

it doesn't look like you have to focus on any of these areas for it to effectively flow there

 

another cool thing is this part as well

and then the final confirmation that the SHO can be opened by bagua practice

if you read the article here at http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html he seems to state this is all in the basics of the training.

 

hopefully this will revitalize this topic

That's a very good article, and I admire Mr. Ma's skill and approach to teaching. I think part of the problem with Microcosmic Orbit is that it is an important breakthrough, and so everyone wants to learn it and teach it. They think that they can force it open by pushing qi through it, but I don't think that's the real breakthrough. From people like Wang Liping and Ma Chuanxu, we can see that the method for real breakthrough is simple and comes naturally without driving the qi. Nan Huai-chin also teaches that it opens this way. And actually, out of all three masters, I don't think that any of them mentions that students should focus on the lower dan tian during practice either.

I have never heard him speak like that before.... not in his books or in his students books.

 

Thanks for sharing that video!

Yeah, this video was also the first time I heard him speak. It was really an eye-opener for me to hear him discussing real internal principles and the importance of Microcosmic Orbit so frankly. I remember one of his books as being my first introduction to Taijiquan. I was a bit disappointed at the time that the book didn't discuss how to use it for self-defense or how to build up qi and circulate it. Later on, I just dismissed these books as not having a lot of depth. But I guess this was only because he was a more secretive master. In contrast, Da Liu was also an early Taijiquan teacher in the U.S., but explained internal principles of practice openly in his books.

From what I've heard, Bruce was definately a cocky S.O.B., and could have used a good ass kicking. But, I'm not so sure Sifu Wang did Bruce the favor. He can say anything he wants to now.

I agree that we don't know if Wong beat Lee or not. I would guess that there wasn't a decisive win on either side. And we do know that Lee basically gave up on his Wing Chun following the fight, so I have a hard time believing that he would have done that if it had been a win for him.

About the strength conditioning, I agree with an earlier poster who said the guy should ask his teacher. Going around his training by thinking that Bruce Lee's will be most beneficial doesn't seem like a sound choice. Taijiquan is very different from what Bruce Lee practiced, and has its own training for these things.

I just noticed that on YouTube there is a short clip of Cheng Man-Ching discussing Microcosmic Orbit and its role in Taijiquan, through a translator. Cheng just discusses opening the path and how it facilitates qi flow for movements. I thought that it was very interesting, since he never really discussed this in his books, and I assumed that he only discussed such things with certain students.

I never would have suspected that there would be video with sound, of him discussing these things openly.

Which one was that?

His fight with Wong Jack Man, who Lee admitted he didn't beat. The fight sent him looking for a new martial art and developing Jeet Kune Do.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

There are several other stories about him being embarrassed by other martial artists for running off his mouth about being the best in the world. But in the end, he was just talk because he never proved any of it. In contrast, Yang Luchan, Guo Yunshen, and Wang Xiangzhai actively traveled throughout China fighting the best masters they could. They earned the awesome reputations they had, but never claimed to be the best because they understood the huge scope of martial arts and stayed humble.

Bruce Lee was an awesome specimen. His martial arts abiltiy and understanding have been rivalled by very few.

How do we know that? How many matches did he fight in? I only know of one real one, and he didn't win it....

You know what always amazes me, is that we have classics written by Immortals and Bodhisattvas on how to practice cultivation -- but we still think that the most important training from a charismatic young Caucasian guy who teaches his completely different secret hidden methods for $10,000.

If people were really interested in this stuff, they would just go to Wang Liping, who was supposedly trained by immortals and who David claims is his teacher. Wang Liping is at least a famous master who has proven himself over the course of several decades. And people can learn from him without spending their life savings.

That's why the Bushmen females INSIST that males learn how to become healers -- it's based on STAYING POWER -- so that after 5 climaxes the heart chakra starts to open up to create REAL love. Then after the heart chakra builds up even more it creates electromagnetic fields which finally open up the pineal gland. The male energy is electromagnetic -- so for the normal male who isn't a healer the electromagnetic energy just drains down into the electrochemical energy and then turns into fluid, without any transformation of the lower emotions (lust, anger, fear, sadness, worry). The normal modern male is a Number 2 or Number 1 person, based on Gurdjieff's system -- the normal modern male has their consciousness controlled by the lower emotions -- the consciousness is STORED in the electrochemical energy points, with each organ the source for each emotion. Only AFTER the sex energy is stored up, cleansed and purified can the pineal gland be opened up -- that's the secret connection between sex and love which is cut off due to the left-brain dominance of modern males. The sex energy is repressed subconsciously and then projected without control as anger, fear, sadness, worry. If there is severe repression due to strong oppression and it's during a time when a person's sex energy is strong then you get poltergeists -- telekinesis. Read Nandor Fodor's Mind over Space and his book "Between two Worlds" and then D. Scott Rogo's follow-up masterpiece: Miracles.

This is what I didn't want the thread to turn into. Why do we have to throw in Gurdjieff, "O at a D's", bushmen, pineal love energy, etc.? I thought this was about Wang Liping and microcosmic circulation....

I agree with Wang Liping. I don't think that full lotus is magic, but I do think it is probably the best way to sit for most meditation. It just blocks off the legs the most, so it helps to pool qi into the dan tian (the furnace), and directs circulation elsewhere. For internal alchemy and especially building the foundation, I think it's good because otherwise qi will just be diverted into the legs.

The Secret of the Golden Flower was attributed to Lu Dongbin, who is referred to as Lu Tzu / Luzi (Master Lu).

http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm

Some background on the text, explaining its origins:

http://hk.geocities.com/akrishi0/goflower/eng/gf_intro.htm

For what it's worth, I've never heard of simply accumulating jing for 100/108 days without any meditation to go along with it.

I don't know about the specifics of what you have been taught, and what you are practicing, but you may find this thread illuminating:

http://www.thetaobums.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5791.html

yeah, really

 

"i read the classics"

 

go die

That's very nice of you. "I want you to die because I don't like you".

So you don't read translations of Daoist or Buddhist classics on cultivation? They're just old poems that explain and document these exact subjects. They're widely available, easy to find, and they can shed some light on what past masters thought were the most important points of practice. Pretty fundamental material, really.

Gosh, I was only joking with Vajrasattva there in my first post...but I did confirm my guess that there are some subjects that should not be mentioned if you want a sober discussion. That is "the nessecity of full lotus", "david shen verdesis foundation training" and "kunlun debunking".

 

But the blog is a true gem! Its a wonder how it managed to stay hidden from the taobums for almost three months...

 

The blogger say crosslegged is fine. But you still need to be able to sit still for several hours within the pressure of the teachers chi-field. The blog say it is painful...I would love to try that challenge

Hehe, that's probably true about the touchy subjects.

I'm probably the only person who has been reading this blog previously. I found it when there were only 2-3 posts. I was surprised that there were no comments on it. When the author started posting on the small heavenly orbit as Wang Liping teaches it, I was happy to see that their methods are for the real breakthrough small heavenly orbit. This just involves converting jing into qi, and building it up at the dan tian until the channels naturally open.

And I agree that the blog is a true gem. I found it when I was searching for information on Wang Liping awhile back.

i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, i just think a lot of people here get bitchy because they can't sit in it;

because you didn't do that just now, huh?

I can sit in full lotus, and I have been able to since I was a young teenager.

And on the other point, mind pointing out how I did, then? When I read a classic, I try to consider the emphasis the writer is putting on each element of the practice. I have never read a Daoist classic that emphasized sitting in full lotus as a key to anything.

Edit: The writer of the blog never states or even implies that anyone opened up the small heavenly orbit because they could sit in full lotus for long periods at a time. It simply states that two successful practitioners during one class could sit in full lotus for long periods, which is an indication that they are experienced in meditation. You'll also notice that there were over a dozen others who also succeeded at it in an earlier class, despite no mention whatsoever that any of them could sit in full lotus.

Spectrum -- like Santiago, you admit not being able to sit in full-lotus with your ankles on your thighs?

Why? So you can try to play the elitist and criticize him?

No respected Daoist classics emphasize full lotus that I'm aware of. And the blog postings don't either, for that matter. No matter what a respected master writes, you always try to twist their words to suit your own theories connecting it to music, math, and full lotus. Give it a rest....

Following your Dharma and calling Max's teachers was not the right thing to do. He is not happy about it.

 

My problem is not with what they said to you (I totally understand that) it is the fact that you call them up and bothered them in the first place.

 

You don't even know them and they sure as hell don't know you.

Why all the hostility about these very simple and basic questions being asked? His teachers probably don't like being portrayed as crotchety old traditionalists who are bothered by a question about their pupil. If they were offended by the questions, they wouldn't have answered them. But they gave very direct answers about what Max learned, and the things that they don't know about his practices now.

I don't know plenty of people, but if I were curious about something and want to find out an answer from the source, I would ask them. Is that really such a bad thing? When comparing Kunlun level 1 and Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong, why wouldn't someone want to ask Jenny? Especially when Max never fully explains his Kunlun lineage.

So we now know that what Max teaches as Kunlun level 1 and fills with poetic ideas about mysterious hidden energies, was simply known as Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong, and utilizes qi.

What Max and Jenny teach is the same basic thing. What they teach is the same as what Wong Kiew-kit teaches as Self-Manifested Qi Flow. Wow, who would have ever guessed that a practice like Kunlun level 1, which assumes a posture and allows the body to completely relax and react to internal stimuli, would be extremely similar to another that has the exact same methods?

You Kunlun people and your silly games... Just because you say you're cultivating a special and unique universal bliss energy passed down from shamans and Egyptian mystery schools doesn't make it so.

That's interesting what Karen said, and a lot of it reflects my experiences. Sometimes after practicing meditation and being in an energized state, after I go to bed I'll experience it. It happens right after I fall asleep, and I hear vibrations, feel trapped, and then feel myself shaking away from my physical body. I can try to stop it, but I usually start to vibrate out of it. I try to cling to my bed, but I feel like I'm being dragged out. I've never fully separated. It's a shocking experience, and when I manage to snap myself back to my body, I wake up. Only a few minutes have passed, and I feel like I've been sleeping for hours. And after I snap back, I can still feel the vibrations and hear them as well. If I'm not careful, it's easy to go back fall back into it again. It has only happened to me while I've been laying on my back.

I've had lucid dreams and that sort of thing, but this is quite different. It feels as real as anything else, and there's not the same dreaming element. Fantasies don't come to life, and such. I'm not someone easily scared, but this can get pretty intense and frightening.

It's a true alchemilcal process having it's beginning, and completion in source.

 

It's the completeion that many people want to know in advance.

Well, if it's a true alchemical process, then shouldn't the people who practice it know what the energy is? I don't think that I'm asking about something so vast in scope that it is beyond any description. If Kunlun is internal alchemy, then energy is the basic means by which inner transformations are made. And as something so fundamental, shouldn't the people practicing know what the energy is? Hasn't Max ever explained what it is, and if it is qi or not? Or does he just give poetic answers?

Or am I just going to get more "you can never understand it until you practice it" stuff? Because I'm not sure what good this sort of advice would do for me -- it sounds like even the people who have been actively practicing it don't know what the energy is.

So... in other words, Kunlun is magic and different from everything else. Its energy is different from every other energy, and nobody is really sure how compatible it is with other practices. I guess Kunlun is so clear and simple that nobody seems to know anything about it...

So do so many people who practice Kunlun seriously not know what Kunlun's energy is, and whether or not it is qi? Is it just qi, but with a few extra doses of magnetism and bliss?

Those are all good points. I'm not bothered by people doubting the authenticity of certain figures. I think that some well-known "masters" should be scrutinized. However, with the subject of supernatural abilities, it's pretty tough to judge one way or another, unless you have experienced them first-hand.

Maybe I joined at a strange time. I had never even heard of David Verdesi before.

I joined two days ago to ask a question about Wang Liping, and the answers that I got were very helpful. However, after reading through a variety of the other threads, I think it's sad that the level of anger and dogmatism is so great on this forum. To me it seems very antithetical to argue and intellectualize the nature of the Dao.

When French missionaries first encountered Daoism, they described the Daoists as evil, and their ideas about immortality as ridiculous. Ever since that time, the West has (often overtly) portrayed "proper" Daoism as philosophical ideas from Laozi and Zhuangzi, and everything else as corruption. Early visitors were happy to arrogantly look down on practicing Daoists with scorn, when they in fact had little to no understanding of their practices.

The history of Daoism in China is very long, and its culture has been a rich one of mutual respect. An inner elixir cultivator would respect someone who practiced magic from Maoshan, who would in turn respect a Daoist gongfu master. They practiced what they felt was effective for them, but they recognized the skill and accomplishment of those from other sects as well. They didn't argue with each other about the Dao -- they practiced it daily.

Thank you for the very helpful replies. Reading some of the other threads about the controversies surrounding David Verdesi, I found myself wondering more about Wang Liping. But from what I have read here, it sounds like he is the real deal.