styrofoamdog

If the seminar is $2000, I think that's a pretty reasonable price.

Also, I think people should calm down and be reasonable about this. We don't know a lot about Wang Liping. His book and reputation make some pretty bold claims, and I think we're all just trying to learn more about the guy and what he teaches. Let's give it some time and keep our minds open to the possibilities, but grounded in reality. Drawing conclusions before we have the facts is irresponsible and unfair.

r.w. smith makes some compelling points. I'd also like to add that I find it strange that Wang Liping's teachers were of the "secret enlightened wandering master / hermit" variety, as this is often a cover for people who have no lineage, or less-than-impressive lineage. These teachers may exist, but between the ethereal teachers, the published book touting him, and supposed $10k seminars, something doesn't quite add up.

He may very well be the real deal, but I'm not sure I would risk $10k on a seminar when he may not be. After all, it's only a seminar. It's not like the guy is going to hand the keys to enlightenment over to you, and the guy standing next to you with the khaki shorts and the camera hanging from his neck.

Master Nan, Huai-chin is considered the best living Ch'an master. Taoism, like Buddhism, is based on DESIRE (literally OF FIRE -- or how the full-lotus BURNS KARMA).

 

Suffering is created by Desire so seek out the source of desire and end it. You do not DESIRE to read Master Nan, Huai-chin and therefore you can not end your creation of suffering. Master Nan, Huai-chin devotes his two main books to how Buddhism has been warped into just conceptual practice without transformation of the body. Master Nan, Huai-chin details how sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body has been transformed and he states that he can sit in full-lotus all the time without feeling anything -- and that he does so. He also gives numerous examples of other Ch'an masters who sit in full-lotus all the time.

 

With no self there can be no proof and your desire for proof is therefore non-existent. That which remains is empty awareness. Consciousness is neither the body, nor the mind -- neither within, nor without.

 

I can do NOTHING and therefore you are correct.

Nan Huaijin is a very respected Chan Buddhist master and teacher, but I believe your claim on him being considered "the best" is pretty presumptive. Nobody knows who the most advanced cultivators are, and there is no consensus within Chan Buddhism that I have ever heard about.

Also, Daoism and Buddhism are based on desire? Where did you get this from? When I read Daoist classics, they don't mention desire as being of primary importance. The framework of desire/suffering is largely one from Buddhism. And with Buddhism, I believe the correct way to state your point would be that it is aimed at ending desire/suffering. Also, I would like you to back up your claim that full lotus "burns karma" with a reference from one of Nan Huaijin's books.

What causes transformation of the body? Is it simply sitting in a posture? No, Nan Huaijin teaches that the transformation of the body is ultimately in the refinement and quieting of the mind and breath. He teaches that when the mind achieves stillness and the breathing is refined, Qi arises and moves naturally. The Qi transforms the body and gradually clears the channels in the legs. Simply stretching and contorting the legs is not enough. As you wrote yourself, being able to sit in full lotus comfortably is only a demonstration that the Qi channels have opened. By trying to use this as your argument, you are confusing the result with the cause.

And again at the end, you devolve into pseudo-intellectual masturbation because you have can't point to an instance one of Nan Huaijin's books where he states that full lotus is essential for cultivation.

The contradiction in your statement is this:

 

"by your LOGIC" and then this "Still waiting for...." In your past post you wanted PROOF - waiting for "proof."

 

Logic is not dependent on proof! Logical inference is the source of all other logic and meditation is based on logical inference -- from LOGOS -- the inference of the source of sound or the "I-thought" as pure consciousness beyond spacetime. Proof is an external Western concept based on empirical evidence -- and creates the psychological condition of the "commodity fetish" since the left-brain logic of proof is deduction through induction (not just logical inference). So left-brain logic relies on external measurements (made with right-hand dominance) as "proof by contradiction" (which excludes pure logical inference). This left-brain logical dominance REPRESSES the right-brain which connects with the rest of the body through the emotional processing of the right-brain.

 

LOGOS is logic as right-brain inference -- when you LISTEN to the source of the I-thought -- or as Master Nan, Huai-chin states -- focus on the question, "Who Am I?" -- then the left-brain dominance, through logical inference, resonates as complementary opposites (pure number as nonwestern harmonics). When you sit in full-lotus you ALSO resonate the body and mind as pure number nonwestern harmonics (the full-lotus is the tetrahedron made up of 4 equilateral triangles, each made up of two 2-3-4 triangles with 2:3 as the perfect 5th harmonic or yang and 3:4 as the perfect 4th harmonic or yin).

 

It's not "my" logic -- it's the logic of inferring the source of sound as complementary opposite resonance. There's nothing to wait for -- consciousness is ALWAYS-ALREADY -- before time and before space. You can't SEE it as "proof" or something you "buy" -- as in spoiled consumer of fetishized products. You can LISTEN to pure consciousness based on logical inference. That's what sitting in full-lotus does most effectively.

So in other words, you can't cite any examples of Nan Huaijin stating that full lotus is essential for cultivation.

Drew, by your logic, we should all be occasional smokers, because Nan Huaijin smokes from time to time. Still waiting for a quote from him stating that full lotus is the key to cultivation.

How is it I ignore what others have learned in the past if my ACTUAL knowledge / Energy/ understanding comes from the source?

...

I think this is mostly an argument for or against esoteric methods, which favor lineages, transmission, etc. In more esoteric schools, there are specific practices said to speed up cultivation, or direct it. In other practices (most forms of Daoism and Buddhism), emptiness meditation is the principle method. The emptiness produces Qi, opens meridians, etc. naturally. For these, studying works such as Daoist classics and Buddhist sutras can point people in the right direction. For esoteric teachings, it isn't so easy.

And I agree that studying is not a substitute for practice.

...

That is exactly how I feel. I feel very humbled that teachers have seen fit to allow me to be a part of this vast and profound heritage. That some-and I am not saying this is you-would belittle or 'poo poo' this heritage is deeply offensive. Not to my ego, but to the hundreds and thousands of people who have given their lives to allow some of us to start from a much higher level of knowledge than we otherwise would have.

...

Ah, I think I understand your point. I also disagree with the way Bill wrote about it (which I found a bit disrespectful), which is why I recommended the Nan Huaijin book originally. My views are that for spiritual cultivation, only meditation without thoughts is necessary. From what I understand, this is the common denominator among religions and spiritual practices. But I don't mean to say that other practices are useless.

Drew, you still haven't produced a single example of Nan Huaijin stating that full lotus is essential. If you are going to keep trying to push this, you should back it up with an example.

Vajrasattva and mjjbecker, I understand that you favor your experiences over books, but if you only draw from your own environment and experiences, you are ignoring what others have learned in the past. I understand that esoteric Buddhist schools have moving forms, but it is also understood by Buddhists that this is not the only way, or the simplest way. We should remember that Nan Huaijin has not only practiced Chan Buddhism.

In 1945, he left for Tibet to learn from Tibetan Masters and was conferred the official title of Vajra Master by the Hutuktu (high ranking incarnate) Kung Ka of the Kagyu tradition. He is also the most eminent student of the renowned lay Chan Master Yuan Huan-Xian, making him an adept in both the Chan and the Tantric traditions.

He is familiar with this form of Buddhism, but teaches Chan as the essential and most direct path. He also criticizes attempts to keep secrets within "transmissions", or hiding knowledge, when the Bodhisattva's vows compel Buddhists to teach humanity in earnest.

Also, I should note that Bill's views are not necessarily Nan's. I don't think that Nan Huaijin would be so negative or take such a dogmatic approach saying that moving forms are useless. And Nan has written some favorable things about esoteric Buddhism, although there are few of his books available in English.

Uh, didn't he master all of the yogic postures before finding his own method? People seem to forget that.

It's true that he did many ascetic practices and austerities, but did he become enlightened from them? Insofar as they pointed him to the path that he eventually found, they did. But did he become enlightened through practicing them? I don't think so.

well the thing is where you in his INNER CIRCLE to know what was really passed to the initiate???

 

There are and always has been in buddhism an "outer, Inner an Secret Inner" understanding to all things, methods, teachings etc.

 

Buddha had a method for each of the 3 paths

 

renuciate

tantric

dzogchen

 

to suit all needs and all types of people.

We know what he passed on to his disciples through the sutras. And the major Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, Confucian writings, memoirs of Saints, etc. do not mention moving practices being key. There are certainly spiritual practices that involve movements in some traditions (such as Tibetan and esoteric forms of Buddhism), but in large, still meditation / prayer have been the methods of spiritual development used by Buddhist masters, Daoist sages, and Christian saints.

I agree with Bodhri. All you need is emptiness meditation and sexual retention and everything else will happen naturally (and I have beautiful skin too). But sitting still and not blowing your wad is not fun so.....

Agreed. I'm beginning to think that people confuse the causes with the results, and so they think they have to force Qi through different areas in specific ways to practice cultivation. I think everything unfolds naturally from emptiness meditation. Otherwise, did the Shakyamuni Buddha need to practice moving exercises? Did he move Qi around consciously to make progress? None of his teachings are about these things. What he does teach is emptiness, halting the conception of thoughts. In Daoism this is repeated over and over again as well. For example, the 250-year old Daoist immortal Li Ching Yuen said that the fundamental Daoist practice is to keep emptiness.

More important Master Nan, Huai-chin ALSO sits in full-lotus all day and night long (for more time than not). So... call that "empty" meditation if you want but full-lotus opens up what Gurdjieff called the Kundabuffer -- the small of the back and the main "organ" putting modern males into delusion.

If you are going to keep trying to use Nan Huaijin's reputation to lend credibility to your own views, then you could at least reference something from him stating that full lotus is essential. Nan Huaijin emphasizes emptying the mind of thoughts and discarding the skandha of conception. He doesn't teach that any form or posture is necessary, and introduces a variety of meditation postures for readers to pick from.

Frankly, everyone here disagrees on everything of this nature.... If you want clarification on this, I would really recommend Nan Huaijin's book Tao & Longevity, which answers the questions you have about circulation and how it relates to cultivation.

All I am seeing are JPEG artifacts...mhhh

It's true, those are only artifacts from the compression.

I wonder what Wang Liping's impressions of David are? And if he knows how much David charges his students for the foundation training?

Kunlun and Maoshan are mountains, not methods. I don't know why Max felt that he had to re-brand his teacher's qigong method. Notice also, that Jenny Lamb describes the practice as "qigong" and not "neigong". In other words, it specifically works with qi, not with a "bliss energy" unique to the practice.

But in my opinion, anyone who tries to trace their practice back to Egyptian mystery schools might as well be selling magic crystals and wearing a tie-dye t-shirt.

Thank you for sharing your insight with us, and best of luck in your time away from society. I hope it is very helpful for you and your meditation.

Agreed.

 

His books do come with a real gem though: original Chinese text. He provides characters, names, and text selections in the original Chinese and that's hard to come by in a translation. Class A scholarship.

 

However, his translation is theoretical. He hasn't achieved the practice.

 

Also, a bit of gongfu gossip, I've met a number of taiji players who have pushed hands with Yang. Their impression was that his chin-na is fantastic but that they didn't sense a high level of internal cultivation from him. Of course, I didn't sense that in them either! Haha. So it goes. However, I've heard only amazing things about Shou-yu Liang. But that's another topic..

This is very true. Especially in the Embryonic Breathing and Small Circulation books, it seems like half of the books are just translations of old classics written by Daoist cultivators, which include the original Chinese. This sort of pure, scholarly treatment is what drew me to his books when I was younger. He is also an engineer, and certainly brings that engineering mindset into his books.

That's interesting about Liang Shouyu... I thought that he must have real skill considering his background in Gongfu, but I was always a bit confounded that he coached students in the standardized Wushu forms.

I have his books on Embryonic Breathing and Small Circulation. But unfortunately after experiencing more in meditation, I can't recommend them. I don't think that he understands the subjects well enough to be able to write authoritatively on them. It seems like most of it comes from book knowledge rather than real experience. But he is a very intelligent man with an analytic mind, not to mention a great Gongfu master.

I asked Dao Zhen recently if he could explain to me what he knows about the lower Dan Tian, and what its functions are. He gave a really excellent response....

Thank you for your letter.

 

I have limited experience.

 

So really a lot of what I say is maybe 45% personal experience and 55% stating from lectures with my teacher.

 

I can say that my teacher is very accomplished, and is far along the road in internal alchemy development.

 

I also am not sure what will develop naturally - say if you just practice and slightly focus to the dan tian, and what takes place when you receive transmission from face to face practice with an accomplished teacher and then focus to the dan tian or really the elixir field, etc.

 

I have taught a few people online through email, and a lot took place - but then maybe from the interaction transmission took place?

 

I guess I am trying to say I do not have all the answers, and am not an authority.

 

Yes, Qi is not indefinitely stored in the LTT.

 

It is also not something you continue to focus on during the course of practice.

 

If you keep practicing for a few years and just constantly focus to the LTT, you can cause a lot of problems, and even give yourself bad health, and internal damage, etc.

 

So it is important to know what is your work to do in practice, and what is the work of nature.

 

The Dan Tian has nothing to really do with "air" or the acquired breathing.

 

Dan Tian does have something to do with Pre Heaven Breathing.

 

Dan Tian can be thought of as a "Spring", it is where the Qi will move from so to speak.

 

So I am perhaps really thinking it is something we build.

 

This is why in the first stages, we focus there.

 

It is also the place where Yang Qi will be cultivated.

 

It is like we do cultivation there for a time.

 

Then we do nothing, and what was cultivated there will circulate naturally.

 

If in the begining there was no work done in the Dan Tian, then there is nothing to circulate.

 

But in the end, maybe you should take a few months and try out a practice and see what happens.

 

Sometimes if you do not meet a master who can give you faith in the practice and method (by observing his accomplishment in person), you have to just try a method or even experiment (this can be dangerous though).

 

I like Nan Huaijin's book Tao and Longevity, but found that some of the things he stated about practice were not as I personally experienced, and some were the exact same, and some things he talked about I had not experienced.

 

I personally found in my school of practice they do not really use the breathing to cultivate or develop the Qi.

 

But most Qigong methods really stress the action of breathing.

 

We do use the breathing to still and lead the mind at a basic stage - we "listen" to the breathing and follow it to combine with the breathing.

 

It is the inner Qi that is naturally developed and cultivated from Gazing in the Dan Tian we cultivate in the first steps.

 

This Qi cultivation we can term - "Inner Elixir".

 

After some foundationwork is accomplished in the above - such as meridian being opened, and storing and developing inner Qi in Dantian, transforming turbid jing back to Qi, and mind will becomes still and naturally focused then we move to another stage naturally.

 

All of the above is working internally, and with your internal resources.

 

The Yang Qi then begins to arrive on the scene.

 

Yang Qi is something like the Qi which surrounds Heaven and Earth.

 

There is no "technique" we can use to gain the arrival of Yang Qi.

 

There are many signs when it arrives.

 

One sign is a loud roaring or vibration sound begins to build in sound and also in a felt density.

 

It is something felt, heard - inside and outside - and it is seemed to be linked to nature and also linked to the flow of your internal qi flow.

 

We have to create an "environment" or proper "conditions" for its arrival.

 

When these conditons are present, and most important when you begin to fall into emptiness then the Yang Qi starts to come.

 

Firs there will be the sound, then the sound will lead you to a "place" or a "state".

 

As you begin to cultivate Yang Qi, this is termed - "Cultivation of External Elixir".

 

Yang Qi also can be termed the External Medicine.

 

Many different terms and it is confusing.

 

After some cultivation, all of this will be stored in the Dan Tian.

 

Then........

 

These substances will naturally reach a fullness, or a peak, or its crest.

 

Then they will begin to circulate in the Small Water Wheel.

 

This is a key attainment in Alchemy.

 

This is not the common visualization practice that is taught in many schools.

 

The circulation of Small Water Wheel will naturally begin to happen when the preconditons are present.

 

So from my point of view, to travel in this course or direction can not take place if you did not do the work to develop the dan tian and then to cultivate the Yang Qi in the dan tian, etc.

 

Maybe this can all give you some ideas on the importance of development and cultivation of the Lower

Dan Tian.

 

Maye we should put some of this in a post on the forum and people want to talk about it.

 

But talk is cheap, practice and experience is what is of value.

 

Peace.....

And my response, just relating some of my experiences to a few points....

Thanks for the comprehensive response! I have been trying to understand more about the nature of Qi and lower Dan Tian to fix my old misconceptions and practice more effectively. Your message has helped me quite a bit with understanding the purpose of the lower Dan Tian. I do not have a teacher, but have experienced some of the things you describe. I'll share the parts that I recognized and could relate to.

 

For building or conditioning the lower Dan Tian, I think it can happen without direct transmission. It requires focus, quiet abdominal breathing, and inner feeling. But it can be clumsy and take time to build up if it is someone's first time. The more experience with lower Dan Tian, the easier it is to build up. If someone loses Jing and Qi from sex and has little energy, then it will need to be rebuilt sometimes.

 

I experienced some of the ill effects of keeping my mind on the lower Dan Tian. I assumed from the books I had read, that I could build up more and more Qi in the lower Dan Tian, as if it was a storage area like a battery. This was not a good idea, and I should have continued to let it flow down into my legs as it had been doing naturally. Continuing concentration on the lower Dan Tian will cause some blockage and soreness in the kidney area. I think that this kept the Du Mai and Ren Mai from opening and stopped my progress. This is the reason I stopped practicing for awhile, and recently began studying and re-thinking the basics to understand where I went wrong.

 

When you say that Qi doesn't relate directly to breathing, I think that I agree with this. Or at least, breathing more or harder won't generate more Qi. It seems like the calmer and thinner the breathing is, the hotter and more effective the Qi is. But it's less tangible and tends to "appear" and get hot when the breathing is subtle.

Has anyone read my posts and realized that I'm not criticizing Full Lotus? As I've stated several times in the past, it's probably the most effective general meditation posture. However, I was and am still skeptical that it is the most important point in cultivation as some claim it is.

[...]

P.S. I can tell you for a fact that Full-lotus is a foundational requirement for the Longmen Pai (Wang Liping's) system.

Thanks for clarifying this. Information on Wang Liping is a bit hard to come by, so it's always interesting when those "in the know" can shed some light on it.

sean denty also just posted that it is eventually required for wang liping's students to sit in full lotus

That may be true, but if I took everything that Sean Denty says seriously....

Here's my contention

 

1) In the two Master Nan books I recommend (Working Towards Enlightenment and Realizing Enlightenment) which are much more indepth than Tao and Longevity -- Master Nan states that sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body channels have been transformed. Master Nan states that you CAN transform the body using the mind only but that it's much harder. Master Nan then goes ON and ON about how the problem with Japan is that Zen became ONLY conceptual -- or mind yoga -- with no emphasis of transforming the body.

 

2) Qigong master Chunyi Lin states that 20 minutes of full-lotus equals 4 hours of any other practice.

 

3) Wang, Liping had to sit in 4 hours of full-lotus as the FIRST step in his training -- so painful that he had to be tied down.

 

4) the lineage of Yogananda ALSO relies on full-lotus --

 

Ok my right foot is numb but more importantly I have to take a leak so I just went out of full-lotus.

1. Nan Huajin covers the same subject in the book that I have read. To him, sitting in Full Lotus very comfortably demonstrates -- the key word -- that the legs have been opened. But the method of meditation that he teaches in order to achieve this state does not require sitting in Full Lotus.

2. I'm not familiar with Chunyi Lin and had never heard of him before reading your posts.

3. Wang Liping was going through very rigorous training from the beginning with no intermediate steps. But how does him learning meditation that happens to use Full Lotus, demonstrate that the posture is the key to his training? I've never heard of him or any of his students stating that it is a key element in cultivation.

4. I generally don't look to Yoga for cues on Daoist meditation.

depending on individual abilities, obviously full lotus being the best so he does have high regards for it

Just about everyone who meditates has a high regard for Full Lotus. Nobody has disrespected it from what I have read. The issue is, and has always been, people claiming that it is the key to meditation and trying to say that certain masters agree with this view. To the best of my knowledge this has never been taught by Nan Huaijin and Wang Liping.

notice he's sitting in full lotus in the photo

He's also wearing a white collared shirt.

Notice that Wang Liping does not say that Full Lotus alone can build the dan tian. He implies that one of the three variations of Lotus should be used. And also, it only addresses the stage of building up the dan tian, and not necessarily stages following that.

In the Nan Huaijin book referenced, there is no requirement of any Lotus position under that section from what I read. In fact, it states that there are up to 96 different positions for meditation, and only cites Lotus as an example.

Wang Liping's reasoning for Lotus (any of the three) is that it blocks off the legs so qi doesn't flow down into the legs. Nan Huaijin only states (Tao & Longevity) that Lotus (any of the three) postures are useful because they balance qi between the legs. So I have yet to see anything from them stating that Full Lotus specifically is required at any stage of cultivation.

Wang, Liping---Full Lotus

 

Chunyi Lin---Full Lotus

 

Nan Huai-Chin---Full Lotus

 

Let's not be so hasty in judging teachers we should be having respect for.

Care to cite where Wang Liping and Nan Huaijin state that Full Lotus is necessary for cultivation?

I've been reading a Nan Huai-Chin book lately, and I've read in many of Drew Hempel's posts that he holds Dr. Nan in high regard. What I find funny about this is that in the book, Dr. Nan introduces over 20 different positions for cultivation, and then states that they are basically interchangeable and that readers can pick whichever they prefer.

People always want to believe that there's a secret bit of esoteric information -- a body position, a mudra, some secret practice only one master knows about, etc. that's keeping us from enlightenment. We have Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, and excellent books at our fingertips. Our learning resources are richer than any number of monks and students who existed in the past. But today I think we don't value what we learn, and we practice it even less. In my opinion, the only missing element today is hard work and dedication.