styrofoamdog

Sounds good. Will do.

Thanks!

In a week, I'm going to see Nan Huai-Chin. If anyone has any questions for him, ask now.

Are you going to see him at the school that he set up? I have a question for him....

For Americans and other westerners, what is the most effective and appropriate approach to cultivation?

Daoism and Buddhism have a long history of practitioners who had supernatural abilities, and both Daoist and Buddhist classics teach that supernatural abilities may develop naturally during practice. I don't think we should just cast this aside as if we know that they can't occur. But I don't think we should chase after them either. They're not the point of cultivation, just interesting side-effects.

Yes.

So you think that a Daoist killing himself with chemicals is cultivating the Dao.

please provide a reference to a text advocating such a practice.

Any text that advocates conserving jing. There is no textual basis for making this error, and it only came out of misinterpretations of classics. Since the word jing is used in a variety of ways, jing energy was confused with literal semen.

please provide a reference to a text advocating such a practice.

Any text that advocates opening the du mai purposefully by breaking through the three gates. Improper practice of this can cause mental illness, and has in the past.

So Procurator, do you think that being poisoned by an "elixir" of immortality is genuine practice? Do you think that a Daoist eating his own semen in an attempt to recover jing, reflects intelligence that we can't hope to have? Or someone forcing qi up into his head and developing mental illnesses as a result -- is that proper practice?

many obvious concepts are wrong. this one is wrong because a) "success" is a function of destiny there are many grades to success and c) finding a master is easier than popularly thought but it depends on destiny as well.

 

your assumption that "most Daoists were confused about meditation and all sorts of nonsense was being practiced " is wrong - those people did what they were predistined to do and achived what they were predestined to achieve in that lifetime.

 

Thinking that they were practising nonsense is just hubris. Do you think that they were stupider than you?

Have you actually read Daoist classics on meditation? Do you know what people have been practicing over the centuries, and what masters have written in response to these things? Interestingly enough, there is little written about the idea that everything that happens to someone is their destiny, and a lot written about proper meditation practices, admonishing those who stray away.

one can only marvel at hubris and self delusion ppl are capable of now days.

If people read Daoist classics on meditation, they can see for themselves. The authors criticize popular but incorrect practices while presenting their corrected methods. Meditation practices were misunderstood widely in the past (as they are today), and there were accordingly few people who cultivated the Dao successfully. I'm not sure why this is controversial, it's pretty obvious that finding genuine Daoist masters who have practiced the meditation work successfully, was (and is) a rare thing.

Of course the author of the Tao of Pooh knows nothing about Daoism. Of course the author of the article knows more. But does the author of the article understand the fundamental principles of Daoist meditation practices? Does he understand the relationships that exist between the mind, breathing, and qi? Of course not, because he confuses Daoist tradition with authentic practice, so he's just subscribing to popular superstitions. Even hundreds of years ago, most Daoists were confused about meditation and all sorts of nonsense was being practiced because people (like now) did not really understand the fundamental principles -- why they were doing what they did.

The love for self-congratulatory subjective philosophy is what creates a market for books like the Tao of Pooh. The obsession with Daoist tradition and supernatural powers provides a breeding ground for charlatans. If people were actually interested in spiritual cultivation through Daoism, there wouldn't be so many Mantak Chia's in the world.

The 2 masters I know Nan Huai-Chin and Hyunoong Sunim both are also masters in moving arts- Taiji and Sun-do respectivly. So here you have it.

I'm not aware that he has ever said anything praising Taijiquan or popular Qigong methods. He basically advocates still Buddhist meditation practices, even when discussing Daoism. When he does mention Qigong, it's usually to point out popular misconceptions about Qi and Qi channels that he regards as being foolish.

I've been celibate for awhile now, and I don't really have difficulty with it. The key isn't physical control at all, it's entirely an issue of the mind. People who read about Daoism tend to think that if they go through the motions of meditation and celibacy, that's good enough. That isn't true at all, and the Buddhist understanding of overcoming your desires is closer to the actual Daoist approach.

In the classic "Anthology on the Cultivation of Realization", the author writes: "Some ask, 'As we learn to become sages, what can we do about the difficulty of getting rid of the force of habit?' The answer is that it only seems difficult because you aren't willing to get rid of it."

The author is stating that we have to look to the origins of our "habits", which are simply products of our own ignorance and resistance to change. If someone wants to be celibate but gives into desires, then it is solely a failure of the mind. If you can extinguish sexual thoughts, the urges to engage in sexual actions do not present themselves.

As I see it, a Daoist priest is someone who should have already been an extremely dedicated person who has done the meditation work for years and has had real spiritual accomplishments. Otherwise, why would people look up to you or go to you for council? It's like deciding that you want to open a Gongfu school without before you have any skill at it. Why would anyone want to attend that person's classes and learn from them?

Blah blah blah, I know he's authentic, I know he isn't authentic. Blah blah blah.

This is like every other thread on Tao Bums.

And of course when it comes to developing Qi and practicing cultivation, nobody thinks to read important Daoist classics or Buddhist sutras. Everyone just wants to follow Guru X and his super-magic-powers-neigong-or-qigong system.

Just some thougts on my part. Anybody else?

 

Jing to Chi- Inner vibrations, quickening, inner heat in the belly

Chi to Shen- Inner lights, feeling the chi rise, kundalini rising type sensations

Shen to Void- Inner peace, insights, realizations

Void to Tao- Emitting light from body, levitations, other siddhis

I can't say a whole lot from experience, but from what I understand, siddhis can be gotten at earlier points in cultivation as well. Nan Huaijin writes that they basically come from samadhi, but I can't confirm that this is true for myself. But the 6 supernatural abilities mentioned in Buddhist writings don't come until later, so maybe this is at the stage of Void to Tao. He also writes of people cultivating different phenomena....

There are people who deliberately cultivate certain phenomena for esoteric practices. I lived in Tibet for a while in my youth. Once a fellow student wanted to show off his achievements that he could go into deep meditation and make his body disappear into a cloud of lights. On seeing this, I reached my hand into the cloud of lights to tap him, telling him, "Stop this act of play!" Most people would have been very impressed by this show, believing he possessed supernatural power.

 

This kind of things are rather common in places like Tibet, Bhutan, Northern India and the high plateau areas of the southwestern part of China. I always felt these places are like fairylands. Our body feels lighter in those places. The feet also feel light.

So it would seem that people can cultivate different effects / phenomena at lower levels, at least through esoteric Buddhist practices.

:lol:

I like Dao Zhen's Chinese saying: "Crows are universally black". Very fitting.

There are so many dubious sources out there, that the only recommendation I have is to find out for yourself through meditation. The subject of Qi, what it is, how it interacts with the mind, body, and breathing is a huge subject. There are very few good authors and teachers out there that can teach you about the nature of Qi. Some people can teach you how to cultivate and circulate it in a particular way, but that's not the same as understanding the nature of Qi.

This type of stuff is full of the same kind of bad information that Flat Earth Society and the fools that claim the Moon Landing was fake use. Morals and Dogma actually has some interesting food for thought in it. Much of what gets quoted gets taken out of context. The Freemasons are a dying breed if anything, not the vast "powerful" society of freethinkers they once were, and certainly not the ruling hidden government that numbskulls like the writers of these websites claim them to be. Though at least one book does lay the claim (albeit with circumstantial evidence) that Jesus was a member of the predecessor of the Freemasons and that he was the "morning Star" (remember the star of that led the magi to his supposed birth?) that was called Lucifer the Light Bringer.

That's only what they want you to think! It's all a Merovingian plot with the Freemasons, Knights Templar, and the Illuminati. They're going to use mind control powers passed down to them from ancient Egyptian mystery schools, to turn us all into cyborg zombies for their nefarious purposes!

This reminds me of the question of what makes you a Christian. Some people might read a few chapter of the New Testament and proclaim themselves Christians. Then you have some who say your not a Christian until your baptized. Then other say your not Christian until your in a lineage that can trace itself back to Jesus himself.

 

You get the same thing in Taoism. Some read the Tao Teh Ching and say their Taoist. Then others come along saying your not Taoist until you join a temple and still others say your not Taoist until your in an established lineage and that you cant even understand the inner meaning of the Tao Teh Ching until your initiated. Yeah, I have met those people....

 

Just starting a topic that all yall can turn into a rant if you like. I'm feeling persnickety today.

I think if people read Daoist classics, and genuinely try to understand and practice Daoism, then that makes them Daoists.

But for people who want to mix Daoist ideas with their own new age philosophies, or just think of Daoism as simple philosophy, or only practice Qigong and just want good health or super powers.... to me those people don't strike me as Daoists.

The issue of Jing and losing it has been a topic for many years of those who cultivate. In my opinion and training, it is necessary to conserve jing. Now that can be done in many ways. One is through limiting the frequency of sexual acitivity. I say limiting not abstaining totally. The other is giving up the need for attachments such as ego, emotions etc.

 

Taoism has strict rules to follow if you want to follow the immortality path. Those rules shouldn't be taken lightly. However, everything in moderation to live a normal, long life. It's about following your nature and your intent. If your intent is to follow a strict Taoist path and transmute jing to qi and qi to shen and become immortal and raise the spirit then you have to follow the rules. It's pretty simple.

I agree with this. It's probably the biggest topic for people who start taking an interest in internal alchemy, because it's an obstacle for them. But if people want to practice this, why do they think they can do that while giving into all of their desires and normal behavior?

Only on Tao Bums! I can't believe that people are so naive that they are taking this seriously.

The guy claims that his teacher is 50,000 years old and comes from a race of extraterrestrials. And then he trained David Verdesi in practices that involved drinking urine, tugging on his genitals, and sticking things up his anus.

The even more hilarious thing is that Mantak Chia actually bought it, and as for the practices, claims to "remember them". For every charlatan I guess there is a group of naive westerners who want super powers, and are willing to throw out their bank accounts or hang sticks from their anuses in the chance that they may someday get fantastic supernatural abilities.

styrofoamdog

 

Sounds good is that what is in the book?

 

WYG

I'm not sure exactly what is in the book, other than that it teaches a variation of the Baduanjin (Eight Pieces of Brocade qigong). I've never read the book before, although it sounds interesting.

The quote is just from a web page relating information given by Da Liu, who apparently learned from Li Ching Yuen.

http://www.chinahand.com/qigong/from_da_liu.htm

I've often wondered about his exercises. From what I have read about him, he was taught exercises called "Bagua". Some people say that he practiced Baguazhang, but I'm not sure if this is true. Considering the date at which he is said to have learned the exercises, Baguazhang wouldn't have existed. I've tended to think that his Bagua exercises were a form of Qigong...

"What was the secret to his longevity? When he was 130 years old, he encountered a very old man in the mountains. This man claimed to be 500 years old and attributed his longevity to having practiced a set of exercises similar to Tai Chi Ch'uan. Called Ba-Kua, they included specific sounds, breathing instructions, dietary, and herbal recommendations. The mountain hermit taught these to Li Ch'ing Yuen and he taught them to Da Liu."

This thread is ridiculous. Nobody really knows a lot about Wang Liping, and we're all just BS'ing about whether we think a master should charge students or not.

It sounds very similar to what goes on in some pentecostal and evangelical churches ("speaking in tongues", "being slain in the spirit", etc.). The power of suggestion, coupled with stress or poor living conditions can have a big effect on some people.

America: the new Medieval Europe!