styrofoamdog

You still don't understand. What I am referring to IS a complete path and actually has little to do with "moving qi up and down the governing vessel." The Taoist system does use complete silence so that nothing is left undone.

 

Right in most cases as the real methods were hidden, lost or wrapped up and concealed. But wrong in this case. If you want to learn a true High Level Taoist method instead of reading meaningless words you are welcome to do so.

 

Taoist is not about talk or reading ill-translated verses - it is about being and doing within that being. Higher Level approach, teachings from the ascended masters, little concern with body and much concern with the Higher Level immortal self as it relates and is to the universe; all these things are part of the system.

I never said that your system had anything to do with moving qi up and down the governor vessel. I only used that as an example of the closest thing to energy circulation practices that can be found in the classical works of Daoism. They all avoided even talking about moving qi.

The real high methods were never hidden or concealed anywhere. They have always been in the classics, and quite plainly, but few people understand them. If you compare the highest methods in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga, you would see that they correspond very closely with the best classical Daoist texts, not with any so-called "secret" methods, which are really just energy movement practices.

If you think that the Qingjing Jing is meaningless words, then that is really an insult to the entire Daoist tradition. That's like saying Lu Dongbin's 100-character Tablet is useless. Since the Tang Dynasty, the Qingjing Jing has been the most central Daoist text for practice. If you didn't know that, I wonder what it is that you have been practicing? The secret secret secret secret systems are usually just Qigong.

Whenever someone brings up historical Daoist practices or real Daoist texts, there is a strong undercurrent on this forum of anti-intellectualism. Everyone thinks they know already what Daoist practice is, yet few have even read the basic classics that outline practice. If someone brings up a Daoist classic and actually takes its teachings seriously, forum members will come in and criticize it as empty intellectualism because they don't yet understand the meaning. But these classics were written to show people the path, and authored by sages and immortals. As the old saying goes, "There is no immortal who does not study."

I have no need for anyone else's "system." Anyone with the Qingjing Jing has enough information to attain the Dao. Anyone with the Diamond Sutra has enough information to become a Buddha. It's just a matter of wisdom, discipline, and meditation after that. The information is adequate, but while these other things are lacking, the practice will not be complete. In ancient times people would understand these texts very deeply and put all their efforts into practice. Now people give the classics a slight glance, blame the text itself, and then go chasing after the flavor of the month qigong system. That's just a big joke, and it's a pity that this site is called "Tao Bums," because it has little to do with ancient Daoist practices.

I seem to get the impression that China is full of huge amounts of alchemical systems that are widely different such as mopai and maoshan stuff. It seems to me there are so many very, very different systems while the yoga systems seem me to be all the same basically. So it seems strange to me that Daosim would not have plenty of good alchemical systems with realized masters. Not sure it is one way or the other just an impression I get.

This is the impression given from modern literature, but it is very far from the truth.

Mopai is an oddity, and not really a Daoist system per se. It's more a meditation (or samadhi) system that borrows some ideas from Chinese culture, and wraps itself in lofty names (Mozi, Bodhidharma, Zhang Sanfeng) to keep its system alive. It's like the billion gongfu systems out there that can be traced back to either Bodhidharma, Yue Fei, or Zhang Sanfeng. In reality probably none of them have any link to those people, but that's how they are kept alive. It doesn't mean that Mo Pai is not something real, but just that it isn't Daoism.

Maoshan and other systems are still kept alive somewhat, but usually the people who practice them have only a basic understanding, and are transmitting forms only. It's like all the people prancing around playing Taijiquan, who have no actual internal skill whatsoever. A real master is difficult to find, and Taijiquan is something popular. Now, how about Daoism which is unpopular in China and just viewed as superstitious folk culture? Finding a real accomplished master is truly, truly rare.

As for the alchemical systems described in all the classics, most people just find them to be cryptic and can't penetrate their language. Everyone talks about yin and yang, fire and water, and circulating qi, but it's just talk. They can move a little qi around or they feel like their dantian is full, but so what? That's not the Dao or the real alchemy of ancient times. The alchemical classics were written to keep their secrets from the unwashed masses who did not have initiation into the meaning of the various terms. Additionally, these come from different systems, yet none of them are differentiated when people try to understand them. Texts from different schools, describing different practices, and different stages are all lumped together. Even those who publish books about it like Yang Jwingming have no true understanding of their contents. Anyone who has read enough books on Daoism will know that their authors are just parroting past rhetoric and playing with these ideas to try to reconstruct a hodgepodge of something real.

What most of the people on this board are talking about are Qigong systems largely invented in modern times -- not Daoism.

Yoga largely refers to systems focused on meditation, as practiced in India. There is Hindu Yoga and Buddhist Yoga, and within these, there are many different systems with various paradigms. These systems were well documented from ancient times, so there are still many masters who can develop samadhi and who have real ability. Not only are the practices well established and plainly taught, but theory and practice complement each other well.

Isn't zhan zhuang one of the most universal foundations of taoist practice?

 

And isn't it really powerful but really simple?

 

Why isn't this more talked about, better documented, or... anything. It's like this amazing thing that people overlook.

 

Is it it's own system? I've heard that it is a complete one, but extremely complex?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Thanks,

John

The earliest mention of "Zhan Zhuang" is in relation to Gongfu training in Xingyiquan, taught to Wang Xiangzhai by Guo Yunshen, and then taught to a number of different people who propagated it after that. In its original form it was very, very simple. Wang Xiangzhai and his students expanded the number of postures and the variety of different practices. It's basically a secular product of the 19th-20th centuries, though. Any history before that is undocumented.

There are many such practices that were invented during the 20th century when "Qigong" became big as a result of Communist persecution of Chinese religion. Spiritual or religious practices were banned, but Qigong was something "for health," secular and physical. Then everyone wore silk pajamas, invented new Qigong systems, and assumed that they represented the height and depth of Chinese civilization. The real history was obfuscated, so now people scrounge around the Daodejing to try to find secret Qigong methods in it, assuming that everything is about circulating Qi around, and Qigong. There are also innumerable New Age ideas surrounding it in the West, to the point where any semblance of actual Daoist practice is drowned out by the noise of modernity.

Daoist practice historically usually revolved around silence and emptiness to attain the Dao (Laozi), internal alchemy (Quanzhen), external alchemy (Fangshi in ancient China), or various visualization practices to move or transmit qi from the environment. There are also some other methods such as casting spells, akin to mantras in Buddhism. A lot of it was no doubt adopted from Buddhism and Indian yogis who also had many of the same practices. For example, the lotus position was adopted from India, and ultimately from ancient yoga.

Daoism in practice is basically something that is dead, though. It's all "Qigong masters" claiming to have Daoist heritage, or people being hoodwinked at temples. But try to find a real spiritual master who has some attainment of the Dao. It's practically unheard of. People can try to reinvent it all they want, but there are so many modern ideas that inevitably creep into peoples' understanding of it, that it's almost pointless. If people took the Daodejing and the Qingjing Jing, and perhaps some other ancient texts as the basis and studied only these, they would be on the right path. As it is, though, the real masters today are primarily in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Yoga.

It's not just one story from one sutra. It is the standard reason for why the Buddha Dharma was taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. It is featured not only in the Sutra Pitaka, but also in the vinayas of the various schools. It is also in the Lotus Sutra and the Avatamsaka Sutra.

After the enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha, he saw no reason to teach others because his teaching was completely inconceivable. That is, it can't be apprehended by thought or the Five Skandhas --- this is the true Dharma of Buddhism, the Prajnaparamita, Vajrasamadhi, Zen, Dao, or any other synonyms for the highest practice and truth. It is something beyond all cognition, and therefore Shakyamuni Buddha may have just meditated peacefully and never spoken about it to anyone. However, a king of the brahma heavens pleads with the Buddha that if he would only speak, there are virtuous devas and humans who would listen and be able to understand. If he would only show them the way to buddhahood, they would believe it and practice with discipline, wisdom, and samadhi. Therefore, the Buddha agreed and taught innumerable methods to cultivate these three things, always pointing toward the truth and bringing people closer. However, to actually attain buddhahood and enlightenment is completely beyond any thought, cognition, or ordinary methods. The highest levels of Daoism are the same, and there is no talk of immortality or ordinary methods of meditation. This is the way that Laozi taught, which is why practically nobody understands him, just as with the Prajnaparamita sutras.

To become enlightened means to attain the Dharmakaya, which is why Zen, Dzogchen, and Prajnaparamita seem so paradoxical and difficult. These all focus very strongly on buddhahood and on cultivating enlightenment. They continually point to the inconceivable truth while eschewing set methods. However, in practice, all schools of Buddhism have meditation methods and other skillful means to cultivate the Sambhogakaya, or to help one see truth and cultivate the Dharmakaya. These skillful means are very obvious in Theravada Buddhism and especially in Tibetan Buddhism where they start with samadhi and cultivating the Sambhogakaya with different methods of yoga. These are all just skillful means set up by the Buddha to help people. If someone takes any set method of meditation as the ultimate Dharma, that's not Buddhism, that's just samadhi, which many yogis could cultivate to very high levels before the Buddha (and to this day many in India have samadhi attainments).

There were immortal rishis in India as well, who probably brought their methods over to China during the early history of Daoism. However, no "immortal" is actually immortal absolutely, they are still subject to karma. If they do not stay in a human body, they can be considered devas, or gods. The Buddhist sutras speak about them and their methods, but also mention that they hold deviant views of eternalism, and are cultivating with a sense of self. The methods they use are fine, and they can live indefinitely even on Earth, but they become attached to them so they cannot make progress to become a buddha. Immortality is by definition the existence of a notion of a self, and with it the notion of others, all sentient beings, and life (qi). These are all things to be eschewed at the higher levels of Buddhism, as the Diamond Sutra teaches over and over and over and over.

Still, if you want to learn how to cultivate an immortal body and become a deva who dwells in the heavens, then the teachings of Buddhism do encompass that. The Shurangama Sutra teaches anything you would need to know to cultivate the samadhi requisite to do this, in very concrete terms. Buddhism is very systematic and detailed in its coverage of this, including not only practice methods, but also the detailed theory. However, few people read the sutras or understand them.

Eat healthy food, get some light exercise as much as you can, get some sleep, and stop all spiritual practices you have been doing. What you have been practicing is not working at all, and you need to drop it and stop inventing nonsense. When you've stabilized a bit and are feeling better, practice the healing sounds to begin cleaning out your body. Don't visualize anything and don't concentrate on anything when doing them.

Ho (呵) for the heart

Hu (呼) for the stomach

Hui (噓) for the liver

Chuei (吹) for the kidney

Hee (嘻) for the throat, chest and abdomen areas

Sss (呬) for the lung

As for moving your dan tian into your chest, I doubt it has anything to do with your lower dan tian. It sounds like qi is clogged up in your chest, making your lungs and heart unhealthy. This is associated with depression, which explains your current situation. When the body is unhealthy, your mental state is disturbed as well. Fortunately, if you take good care of your body as described above, your mind will gradually become healthier as well and you will be more optimistic about your life.

Never said it was. I was just wondering if it is generally excepted in organized Taoism that costumes, rituals, talismans are such are truely magic and powerful. I was wondering if the stuff Mak Tin Si is talking about is representative of the view of "proper" Taoism. If not, than wonderful, i would love to get more involved with Taoism. If yes, than I have little interest in being involved (never said anything about not learning about it) with Taoism. And thus would take what I found enlightening about it orignially and call it nothing. It was a statement posed to get answers to a question.

There's no one proper Daoism, just like there is no proper Buddhism. It has changed into many different forms since the days of the Daodejing and the Huangdi Neijing. The important thing is to see truth and make judgments for yourself, based on broad and careful study. Once you start taking ideas from everywhere without any regard to the traditions they originated in, then you'll fall into perpetual confusion because the teachings will (or will seem to) contradict each other.

Comparatively, Daoism is more difficult to study than Buddhism, since texts were not focused on to the extent that they were in Buddhism. For example, if someone wants to learn Chan Buddhist teachings, studying the Lankavatara Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Surangama Sutra, and Heart Sutra would basically be enough. (Actually, that's more than most monks in the past learned, as they would primarily focus on learning the Lankavatara Sutra or the Diamond Sutra.) There is no clear curriculum like this for Daoism.

Oh noes! He's teh secret Muslim!!!!

I don't think that it's about the physical loss of semen, but rather about the energy related to it. Semen is only one use of the word jing. Personally, I can feel a big difference after ejaculation, even a day or two after. It's especially noticeable in the kidneys and legs, but also in the lack of energy elsewhere.

An outdated and superstitious practice. Semen dies and is regenerated everyday.

That's hardly a convincing argument. On the microscopic scale, the individual sperm generate and die everyday, but is the concept of jing tied to each individual sperm? Also, how do you know that it's based on superstition, especially when it has been an important prerequisite in other forms of cultivation?

Outside samsara there is nirvana, a mind-state where one is free of karma and rebirth. Only a Buddha can experience nirvana.

 

What is the purpose of asking these strange questions?

They were rhetorical questions I was using to point out that the True Mind is not impermanent. Without this, Buddhism would have no meaning or simply be a form of nihilism.

Darin,

 

there is no Daoism without a teacher.

Daoism is a tradition orally transmitted from master to student. When a student is accepted into a specific lineage a ritual is performed in which the master *introduces* the student to the Daoist Pantheon and to the lines of masters he is going to belong to. A new name is also given.

That's the ONLY way for a common person, in Daoism, to be able to be 'known' by the "higher beings" (call them divinities, higher energies or whatever you like) that may guide the newcomer on the Path.

At the time of ordination the students vows are to the "Three Treasures" that are:

- Dao (itself)

- Master (and the line of transmission)

- Classics (the object of transmission

 

Zhang Sanfeng, by the way, was an ordained Daoist Monk in various lineages before creating his own school and had LOTS of masters.

 

YM

There are some important Daoist texts who were written by masters who admittedly learned from books and had no teachers, such as the author of Anthology on the Cultivation of Realization. There are also many accounts of Daoists learning from books as well, and writing down their experiences in meditation cases. Additionally, there are classics (even written by Lu Dongbin), that state that what people need to know about cultivation to reach immortality is completely within the text. Treating Daoism as if it has never strayed outside of your own understanding isn't helpful or accurate, as there have been many different schools, traditions, and teachings over the years.

As for Zhang Sanfeng, there isn't a clear historical record of which century he was born in, much less that he was a monk and had many teachers. And the historical depictions and folk stories tend to portray him as a hermit rather than as a monk.

Let's not oversimplify things. Is the True Mind impermanent? Is Nirvana impermanent?

Why are you asking this question on a forum, from people who may have very different traditions than your own? Some will say that it is necessary, and some will not. If you are learning from different sources, what do they say about learning from books?

There have been great Daoist masters who only learned from books and classics. There have also been great Buddhist masters who have only read the sutras, but studied carefully, practiced with dedication, and achieved enlightenment. The difference between them and you, is that they had access to good information and knew how and what to study. Not to mention that when people had access to these texts, they valued the information and practiced diligently.

Trying to learn something as serious as cultivation haphazardly from different sources (including YouTube) and trying to piece them together is a serious mistake. Whether you have a master or not, you should go through one door and study broadly, deeply, and carefully.

I think Master Nan would agree:

 

http://www.fuuse.com/article.php?story=20060103225311305

 

http://mothershiplanding.blogspot.com/2008...of-alchemy.html

As I recall, you own a few of Nan Huaijin's books, but it's clear from your posts about him that you don't understand the basics of what he teaches. It's unfortunate that you have excellent resources right in front of you, but you can't accept them because you're only interested in validating your own preconceptions and pseudo-scientific theories.

Very interesting...my lower belly bulges a bit...I wonder if this is why? And if I should start to try reverse breathing?

He is criticizing the idea of holding the breath in the Dan Tian, and making a remark about how this isn't effective for martial arts. He isn't recommending using reverse breathing for meditation, only saying that this is the way to breathe, to use "wind" maximally for martial arts. "Wind" in this case in the Tian Tai Buddhist term for the air and energy associated with normal breathing. To understand what he is getting at, it's necessary to read the book.

My 5 soldi on Bill. .. Some of his stuff just is best around (WS, 9-bottles etc) but as been said before his way of presenting to put it mild not the best...

 

Most annoying of all ... he doesn't want to even try look on things from another angle then from point of view of his master (Nan)..

 

there is what Yogani (AYP said to me ) when we discussed this topic with him:

 

But what else can a Zen Buddhist (meditation purist) say? He is a product of his tradition. I am a product of open scientific inquiry (I hope), and that is what AYP is designed to be.

I don't think anyone who has read much about Nan Huaijin's views would think that he is simply a product of traditions. He is certainly not dogmatic about Zen or Buddhism, and he is keen on noting that Buddhists must be scientific in their approach, testing everything. He is also eager to draw parallels across sects and traditions (including Indian Yoga), and to illustrate ideas in unconventional and sometimes irreverent ways. I suspect that Bill is not as open-minded as Nan Huaijin is, but I haven't read enough of Bill's material to know that for certain.

It seems to me that Daoists of the past did not take the approach that the Dao was simply a lifestyle enhancement that reflects peoples' wishes.

I think that Bodri has gotten many of his ideas from Nan. The meditation methods he emphasizes are basically from the Buddhist sutras, so nothing that has been invented in the last thousand years. His approach isn't so traditional and neither are some of the ideas he holds, but the methods certainly are.

Yeah, normally I would really hesitate to buy an eBook, but given that it's Nan Huaijin talking informally about anapana, I gave it a shot and I'm very glad I did. It not only has some excellent information on the practice, but it's a lighter and illuminating read that can help with understanding the denser material like Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment. They also cover topics on cultural differences, theory from the Surangama Sutra and relating it to modern science, Confucian ideals for business, etc. In my opinion, it's all pretty interesting when it's coming from someone like Nan Huaijin.

I have this eBook -- it's 115 pages and very different from Tao & Longevity.

Tao & Longevity focuses on the effects of meditation and explains them using Daoist terminology. It's very good, but a bit limited in what it offers as far as explaining exactly how to meditate, when compared to Working Toward Enlightenment. But it does go over the basics of meditation, and covers the effects of opening the Qi channels in the legs, the Du Mai, the Ren Mai, etc. But it does not cover practical aspects of how to reach those stages, so much. Still, it's a good buy and I really like its appendix on the different routes to cultivating samadhi. It also briefly highlights supernatural abilities that result from samadhi. But as for actually reaching the state of samadhi, it doesn't have a lot of material on it.

The Conversations of Nan Huai-Chin and Peter Senge is a series of more informal dialogs between Nan Huaijin and Peter Senge, a Management professor at MIT who learns meditation from him. Nan discusses anapanasati and draws parallels between the stages and those in Daoism such as embryonic breathing. He discusses the Entering the Womb Sutra and how a fetus develops, relating it to anapana practice, again. And he discusses reaching the state of Xi, where breathing becomes very refined and practically stops. They do go off on some different tangents, though (it's pretty informal). I definitely recommend it for its information on anapana, and probably has more practical advice to offer, but it's more scattered, and there is less technical content. I would certainly recommend it for someone who has Working Toward Enlightenment.

I believe the White Skeleton Meditation that Nan Huaijin and Bill Bodri teach comes from a Buddhist sutra that has not been translated into English....

The Essentials of the Secrets of Dhyana Meditation Sutra (禪祕要法經)