Barnaby

I dunno, man, some kids’ movies are wild when you’re tripping…

Whereas in your tradition, it’s more a case of the master inserting part of his anatomy into one of your orifices, as I recall…

Yeah, but it’ll cost you

A friend of mine used to tell a funny story about his art teacher dad taking deprived inner city kids from the Elephant and Castle to stay on a farm, as part of some 1970s outreach programme. Apparently they used to find the cows completely terrifying

In my experience, the feeling of a race against time is something to be wary of. I think most things of lasting value are better unhurried.

This all sounds like it was a pretty serious situation, and I don't mean to detract from that. But the above words probably sound familiar to anyone who bought into one of these do-it-yourself lineages, only to end up judging that the master/teacher was unscrupulous. I thought about posting on this in the Side Effects thread, but I might as well do it here... These schools aren't all as lurid as the one being described. But even when they're not, they can share similar dynamics. The all-knowing charismatic leader. The mysterious lineage story. An audience of lost souls looking for an answer in life. The repeated message that only this school possesses the only effective method. Justifying distance/isolation from pre-existing friends and family. The confirmation bias among students that they are the only true believers. It's the basic cult dynamic, and I think it's more widespread than people think. It doesn't have to go full Charles Manson to be a cult, or display cult characteristics. Be careful out there.

of forgotten lore incense clouds in the temple dimly remembered

Xing yi, cool! Welcome!

I trust you don't have me in mind here That's absolutely not my attitude anyway... To be clear, I consider reciprocity to be entirely normal and good karmic practice. What I'm wary of is when making money gets the upper hand over spirituality

No worries, just having a laugh

Very early days, so I wouldn't want to be making any definitive statements!

See? Dr Hunter S. Thompson right there

Love all the Dr stuff, it's so Dr Hunter S. Thompson

Colour me cynical, but this podcast series comes over to me like a shop window for economic actors in the spiritual marketplace...

And of course there's now also the modern-day equivalent of books to contend with: the YouTube video.

What sort of adverse reactions did you have in mind?

celebrate the loss observe the petals unfurl detachment’s flower

Re chanting, interesting to see the parallels with Christian plainsong too...

a campfire glows sending sparks into the night crack! a log ignites

Something akin to an awakening, do you think? I've heard of awakening experiences described as kind of foretastes – not attainments, as you say – of what lies further down the path. But that was in less dramatic contexts than the one you describe...

No apologies necessary, on the contrary. Great post. It really brings a lot to the discussion. Thanks for sharing.

A bit like saying Vajrayana's shit because it uses visualisation, then? Can I be clear about my position? Because I feel that I am being misrepresented... I completely respect and understand anyone's wish to be discrete about their own spiritual practice. What I am uncomfortable with is when people are dismissive, superior and judgmental with regard to the spiritual practice of others.

No worries, that's entirely your decision. It's just that until someone actually does come clean, this "my school is better than your school" thing is destined to go round and round in circles...

No probs, no time now, I'll get back with that in the next few hours EDIT: I'll start a new thread, so as not to hijack this one. EDIT2: On reflection, I won’t be starting that thread. I think my time is better spent practicing than contributing to debate on the internet.

No problem. It's just that elsewhere, you said this: And this: And this: Now, if no one is actually prepared to be specific about the developments they have seen in themselves and their fellow students – and, eventually, how they compare to the developments of students of other systems/traditions – I propose that we stop asserting that any system is more effective than any other. Because there's no data. It's just a bunch of words with nothing to back them up. Like the self-congratulatory marketing promo that kicked this whole thing off in the first place. Absent any personal testimony of concrete developments or attainments, I personally am going to chalk all of this stuff down to wishful thinking. And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher. But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...