Yen Hui

You're absolutely right! Thanks Harry. My reply was admittedly vague, and more intended mainly just to point hagar toward looking at the situation from the standpoint of the five elements. But, yes, an excess of wood in the diet would do just as you say! Feeding According to TCM @ http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/courses/...08/tcm-food.htm

Five Element Acupuncture ~ Husband Wife Imbalance and Bipolar Disorder: A Case Report @ http://www.fiveelementtraining.com/article_2.html

Anger falls under the wood element. cf. @ http://www.fiveelementtraining.com/syl_wood.html ~ And spring is the season associated with wood. The liver and gall bladder are the wood organs. It's time for spring cleaning, as they say. A good de-tox is in order, and after the cleanse, concentrate your diet on foods associated with the wood element. Focus on wood element sounds, meditations, exercises, colors, etc., both during and after the spring cleaning; and keep us posted on the outcome.

The answer to that one is obvious. Consider yourself corrected. Unfortunately, though, I know longer possess his book on Internal Alchemy, so cannot reference it for you. If you would'nt mind, though, I'd like to know how you know he's never practiced either Taoist magic or internal alchemy? Are you basing that on flipping through a few pages of his books at the bookstand? Or have you actually corresponded with him? Watch it now. You're beginning to slip! I think you meant "blabbermouth".

http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

Tao Te Ching:- Always passionless, thereby observe the subtle; ever intent, thereby observe the apparent. These two come from the same source but differ in name; both are considered mysteries. (cf. Section 01 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap01 ) Hey there freeform ~ You're not holding back on us, are ya? I'm certain it would benefit a few of us if you would elaborate a bit on those "detrimental" effects that you allude to. I mean, what are the benefits, iyo, of being tight with people of 'bad' energy?

Well, after a quick review of this thread, it has just occurred to me that I was, in fact, mistaken about Max's references. He referenced "Nan Huan-Chin", and not "Hua-Ching Ni", as I had originally thought. What can I say, but that I'm a human who still errs; as I think is also true of Master Ni. While some of Master Ni's teachings leave me scratching my head, and wondering where he's coming from, I am actually far from thinking he's "a dud". I have read too much of his writings to think that. He is, indeed, a person of great achievement. But that does'nt mean he's infallible, or evolved beyond making errors; he'd be the first one to admit that, I feel. THREE MORE QUOTES from Entering the Tao :- 01 - Tao is the potency of the Universe. It includes all Gods, all deities, all divine beings, all spirits, and all souls. This means that all things have Tao as their deep root. Anyone who embraces Tao also embraces the potency of the Universe. To embrace Tao is to become Tao, and nothing can be beyond you, nothing can occupy you. (p. 1) 02 - Integral truth is not a uniting of all religions; it is doing away with all religions. Use your mind to directly reach the universal mind. Use your spirit to directly reach the universal spirit. Surely in human life, religion is a matter of different customs in different societies. Achieved ones never disagree with customs and also never agree with any custom. They live, they are happy, and they may enjoy the customs, but their spiritual development is never limited or confined by them. (p. 12) 03 - It is important, therefore, to know and see the entire universe as one being. The organs of a spiritually achieved person develop their own spiritual energy and spiritual entities, but they all make up one complete spiritual being. It is the same in the universe. You and I are supported by the same universal spiritual energy; the whole thing is God. There is no separate "God" in the realm of integral truth. (p. 22) It is possible to ascertain from the above quotes, I feel, that Master Ni is neither a "philosophical" Taoist, nor a "religious" Taoist. ( I hope Michael [the Lerner] reads these THREE QUOTES, as I feel they speak to some of his concerns/questions.) It is clear (to me at least) from the body of Master Ni's writings that he's a Taoist Alchemist; and yet it is equally clear to me that he believes in the subtle power of Taoist magic to guide and produce changes in the phenomenal realm. It's important, I feel, for us to try and interpret him within the larger scope or context of all his writings, and not merely on the basis of a few isolated quotes. While quotes are helpful, they're also highly limited in regard to their ability to provide a comprehensive view of an author, which can only be obtained from extensive study of their writing(s). It is clearly impossible to form an accurate assessment of Master Ni's overall Taoist vision and experience, from just a few random quotes. Taomeow ~ Just curious, if you've studied any of Master Ni's writings in depth? If yes, which ones, if you don't mind my asking? With regard to his comment on "the craft", it's clear, from that one passage I quoted, that he believes "wizard- making" is a "Taoist" tradtion, predating the Tao Te Ching. Would you disagree with that? It is also clear, from the greater body of his writings, that he has a profound experience and grasp of both Taoist alchemy and magic. However, it is also clear to me that much of what he says is quite advanced, and way over my head! With regard to the old Confucian practice of "foot-binding", it is unclear to me whether (or not) all Confucians were in favor of it. It seems to me that perhaps not all were. It is highly doubtful that Master Ni ever was; in fact, I feel certain he would completely disapprove of it. Just because he believes Confucianism has absorbed some of the ancient or original spirit of Tao, and can be harmonized at specific critical points with the "original" spirit and practice of Taoism, does'nt mean he necessarily approves of all the ancient Confucian teachings and practices. Hey there Pat [the Wayfarer] ~ Thanks for the above link which provides us with a concise view of Taoist sexual cultivation practices. What I found particularly helpful about it was it's pointing out that there are " 'single cultivation' practices, done alone," or without a partner. While I was personally aware of this, it is something not everyone is clear about, especially those who are relatively new to Taoism, or just beginning to take a serious look into the tradition, from the outside. Wow! I'm impressed (mildly speaking) to read about you're being into the I Ching since the 60's; and even more so, of you're getting into it even before becoming sexually active. That's awesome! I only discovered it in 1990. Sad, but true! However, since then my life has never been the same. With regard to your experience of sex in terms of "emotional warmth", I'd like to hear more from you, if you don't mind, regarding the Taoist psychology of the "emotions", in general; and specifically with regard to a healthy Taoist sexual expression. Regarding this matter, Master Ni has the following to say about it:- 04 - "Passion means emotion. Passion is what makes love narrow. Passionate love can be a good experience during one's youth, but passion needs to be well guided and controlled. Although the emotional experience of narrow love can be beautiful, it can also be harmful. Broad, humanistic or natural love, however, can be enjoyed throughout this life and all lives. Whether love is humanistic or passionate, it should always be guided by the principle fo balance. If one loses balance in the name of love, then that way of loving is unhealthy." (Entering the Tao, p. 89-90) 05 - "Passion is only a part of the whole human mental being, however. There is still the higher sphere of the mind which needs to be cultivated and developed so that one can have good control over the passion of the lower sphere of the mind. A raft riding the torrents cannot carry many people. Danger may be lurking anywhere along the path. Though one may enjoy the excitement of riding a raft in the torrents, this is not a normal, everyday practice. If one's passion is like a torrent, then one's life is like a raft. How dangerous that is! How long can the enjoyment of such excitement last? Is it worth exhausting one's life? This seems to be a poor model of normal, healthy passion." (ibid, p. 90-91) 06 - "Love is a beautiful passion; however, when emotional force or possessiveness is attached to what one loves, the sublime state of pure love is degraded or damaged. Surely, a spiritually developed person can still feel personal love, but it is unattached, an unoccupying love. This is the fine quality of true spiritual love. The nature of spiritual love is subtle. One can unceasingly appreciate beauty without creating the troubles which accompany its ownership. Therefore, a full life of appreciation can be lived without carrying the weight of worldly burdens." (ibid, p. 91) When approached in a "wholistic" manner, as you imply, that is, with spirit, soul, and body, then it's more than just "physical love". Don't you think? However, while I'm far from adept at such matters, it does not strike me as if practicing sexual yoga with complete strangers is capable of realizing this high goal. It goes without saying, though, that I remain open to correction on this. Yes, Matt. Thanks for the input. It's appreciated! For the record, though, I've not revisited the "Serious Offer" thread, since my second post there, so I have no idea which direction it's gone in; nor do I really care, to be honest. I stand by what I said there, regarding the absence of the spirit of the Tao in that thread. While Michelle's offer may be serious, her interest in Taoist spirituality is not; at least not that I could readily discern. Usually, Pat? I'm more inclined to say always. They are definitely entwined if one's whole being is involved in the doing; that is to say, if one is "sincere" in the act. There is a kind of 'hypocritical' doing and 'sincere' doing. The hypocrite's heart is not "really" in the doing; thus his/her practice is hollow, or shallow at best. A "hypocritical" or hollow practice would not qualify, in my books, as authentic or genuine Taoism, despite the "outward" appearance. If they are "sincere" in their practice, that is to say, if their heart and soul are united in the act, then the act is a true reflection of their heart/mind. At least that's how I presently see it. I feel we must carefully distinguish between the celestial mind of Tao, which is present in everyone, though buried under mountains of false ideas and conditioning; and the mundane human mentality. It may feel "unnatural" to them only because of their prior false conditioning; but if the practice is genuine and persevered in, then it will recondition the conscious mind, and thus harmonize it with the person's original spirit, which is the innate mind of Tao. Interestingly enough, Mantak Chia considers himself both a Christian and a Taoist Wizard. Check out this link, for example:- Mantak Chia - A Modern Taoist Wizard @ http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Artic...ews/larth42.htm Well, I feel that intention is everything. There are those, no doubt, who dabble with Taoist practices, but would not really consider themselves Taoists at all. And I would agree with them on that. I'd also say there are those who think they are Taoists, just because they read the classics and might practice a form of Taoist meditation, but that does not necesarily make them Taoists; and so I would agree with Pietro on that. But do you think I'm about to tell Master Chia he's deluded, or not a Taoist just because he also claims to be a Christian? Not likely. And I'm sure his claim to being a Christian is not an attempt to conceal his Taoism. According to the few passages I've quoted from Master Ni, regarding the nature of the Tao, and adherence to "zero" doctrine in genuine spiritual practice, Master Chia's Christian practice could not possibly negate the authenticity or genuine character of his Taoism. As usual, though, I remain open to correction on this.

You sure you ain't the "TaoTiger"? The "meow" seems to have transfigured into a "roar"! LOL Now, if you feel up to it tonight, we'd love to hear how you really feel about him! Just kiddin'!

There are at least two reasons for my saying this, Taomeow: first, that it seems "concealment" could have been successfully achieved by taking on the practice of merely 1 or 2 extra paths, instead of 4 in all. I mean, just the 'Maoism' and 'Confucianism' would have sufficed, don't you think? Why the need for Buddhism and neo-Taoism as well? Unless, of course, 4 extra paths offers twice as much concealment as just 2 extra paths. The second reason is that if mere "concealment" was his goal, why labour to become adept at all 5 paths? I'm not sure if he was actually adept at all 5, but that's the impression I get from Pietro. At any rate, would'nt it have sufficed for him to just hang with them all, and learn their lingo? Why bother to master all 4 or 5 paths? After posting the above reply, the following passage from the Tao Te Ching came to me, which strikes me as providing further insight into the mystery:- "Heaven and earth are not humane; they regard all beings as straw dogs. Sages are not humane; they see all people as straw dogs." (cf. Section 05 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap05 ) Now, Cleary offers the following commentary on those two lines:- Cheng Dachang says, " This means everything has its time, then passes away, so there is continuous renewal. If you are a conscientious humanitarian, what are you going to do? Working for one impedes another; help one and you neglect a hundred. This kind of humanitarianism is both toilsome and trivial. Chuang Tzu said, 'The supreme kindness has no familiarity; it should make you forget the world, and make the world forget you.' " Cao Daozhong says, " Heaven, earth, and the sage are supremely humane, but they do not consider themselves humane, so it is said that they are not humane." (Taoist Classics, V. 1, p. 111) In regard to Taoist Wizardry, I came across the following passage in Master Ni's book on Entering the Tao, and wondered what you might make of it? Is there a difference between a Taoist Wizard, you think, and the kind of sorcerer described below? "Do not take interest in the craft of a sorcerer. All ancient traditions are involved with some sorcerers, and though their power is invisible, it is absolutely not high divine power. The great ancient teachers have kindly pointed out that such an ability is not the important practice on the path of eternal life, nor is it the way to obtain eternal life. On the contrary, such powers usually create more spiritual obstacles for those who indulge in spiritual power practices. In most cases, the price is too high. This kind of practice is actually a type of darkness developed before people attained high enlightenment as revealed in the Tao Te Ching." (Master Ni's Entering the Tao, p. 127)

Hi there Pat ~ Thanks for the input. The synthesis of different "belief systems and philosophies" is not peculiar to our own times. According to the German philosopher Hegel, the flow of Western history and ideas can be summarized in terms of "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis". And to a large extent, the same appears true of Chinese history and ideas as well, at least on the surface of things. It certainly appears to explain the formation of Complete Reality Taoism. It is difficult for me, at best, to view Complete Reality Taoism as nothing more than an attempt at "Darkening the Light" (cf. Hexagram 36) or the "concealment" of 'pure' Taoism from public view; though I admit the possibility of that dynamic factoring into the overall equation at some level. However, regarding the ideas expressed in the above quotations, from yourself, Pietro and Sean, I offer these further selections from Master Hua-Ching Ni's book, Entering the Tao. According to the esteemed Master, truth is expressed in all the ancient schools, though only in part. See no. 7 specifically, which seems to offer an explanation for the emergence and continued existence of Complete Reality Taoism (i.e. Neo-Taoism). In the spirit of the Tao, Yen Hui TEN MORE QUOTES FROM ENTERING THE TAO:- 01 - "Arguments about Tao usually occur only about words, not about the underlying reality behind them." (p. 7) 02 - "Tao does not emphasize any point of view. It is neutral, like zero. It does not hold any particular standpoint which would create a prejudicial tendency. It rejects any possible extremes." (p. 3) 03 - "At the beginning, Tao just meant 'the Way'. Tao is the ancient spiritual education. It was especially emphasized about twenty-five hundred years ago, when the wise people of society reacted to the confusion of the time ... etc. There were several different teachers, and as they taught, students came and the schools were formed." (p. 4) 04 - "Mo Tzu, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and Chuang Tzu all presented the Integral Spirit with a different emphasis. All of them took the duty of awakening and harmonizing the people, but the approach was different. Thereby, the pure Taoism, different from the religious type of Taoism, took the duty of awakening people of spiritual differences to the subtle truth, Tao." (p. 5-6) 05 - "Mencius (the great Confucian sage.) never mentioned the Taoist school in his writings, because he himself absorbed some teaching and practice from the ancient teaching of Tao. So you can see that the other achieved Taoists at that time still managed themselves with coolness and calmness: they stayed at the side and did not become involved with the changing waves of popular Chinese society. " (p. 5) 06 - "Tao cannot be defined by the differences between what is in front and what is in back. Nor is this the Taoist mind. A healthy Taoist attitude always comes back to a neutral point. For example, once we notice that we have thoughts or emotions toward a certain thing or person, once we have built any kind of attitude toward something, we always need to put it aside and come back to the zero point. We must always be waiting for change." (p. 8) 07 - "Because things in the world change, there is no reason to hold tightly on to any teaching or establishment that began two or three thousand years ago. Only the helpful principles that were taught should be followed, because principles do not change. All good principles can merge together as one good unified principle that exists prior to any of the momentary teachings that were developed. It is Tao." (p. 9) 08 - "Many people ask me, what is Tao? Is it not clear enough? Tao is integral truth. It is not a projection of a prejudice; it is not a partial truth that needs insistence; it is not a viewpoint or a philosophy. It is the universal integral truth, the truth of all lives, the truth that exists prior to any thought or statement." (p. 11) 09 - "All the arguments between the three schools, or between any points of view, or set of words, are not necessary. They are only different viewpoints of the same undiscussible thing. In a sense, they are all true, but none of them are exactly true, because Tao can never really be defined." (p. 6-7) 10 - "I write my books to give viewpoints of many of the ancient developed ones. Why? I do it because I hope that after reading and understanding many different viewpoints of Tao from the achieved ones, you will come to understand what the words cannot define. Your understanding of tao will not actually be a set of words. It will be deeper than words." (p. 6)

Very interesting, Mal! The ability to be happy, despite (or regardless of) the external circumstances, is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as you are not deviating from the Tao in the pursuit of happiness. The Master's point was that doing right, that is, practicing the Tao, should make us happy. Practicing the Tao, though, means effecting central harmony, or cultivating the spirit. Cultivating the spirit means to not seek happiness in externals. According to Taoist psychology, emotions are external. Attaining the inward or center requires practicing detachment from the emotions. If I could give you some advice, don't seek happiness by making yourself unhappy. There is something deviant about that, but what do I know?

Thanks for the feedback on that, Dan. It's appreciated!

FURTHER SELECTIONS FROM ENTERING THE TAO :- 01 - "Do not be receptive to people or things with low or bad energy; receptivity to such energy might damage your spiritual health." (from the Chapter on BASIC SPIRITUAL PROTECTION, p. 124) 02 - "Do not undertake activities with people whose energy is low or bad, especially eating, sitting, living, travelling, or partnering activities." (ibid, p. 125) 03 - "Do not allow personal items such as clothes or books to be used by other people, in order to avoid an energy mix-up. Also, for this reason, your bed or personal room should not be disturbed by others." (ibid, p. 125) 04 - "Do not engage in physical contact, such as shaking hands, hugging, or friendly kissing, with persons of poor or confused energy. Such people are also to be avoided when it comes to healing in any form, such as massages. Haircuts, manicures, and other similar things should be avoided. The more you do for yourself, the better." (ibid, p. 126) 05 - "Do not engage in low-quality mental activities. Indecent, illusory, or imaginary exaggeration in writing, talking, thinking, or reading can cause your mind to become irresponsible to the correctness of your own being. The mind may become wild and lose control, finally causing you to lose the vision of the true way. To a spiritually developed person, thinking functions as the accumulation of Ch'i. Thus, when you are thinking, avoid thinking of bad things or of people with bad energy. With your thinking you may cause something to happen or you may accumulate improper Ch'i." (ibid, p. 129) 06 - "Do not exhaust yourself through insatiable physical or mental desires. Do not overuse one particular organ or part of your body. Overusing the body will cause your mind to become dull, and overusing the mind will weaken the body. Both forms of excess create obstacles to your spiritual growth and damage the wholeness and balance of your being." (ibid, p. 129) 07 - "Do not work just for the feeling of happiness; it will cost you too much. It is better to remain right and true on all occasions and at every moment. The feeling of happiness belongs to the emotional level. Thus, be careful not to become a slave to your emotions; rather, be the lord of your spirit." (ibid, p. 128) 08 - "Practice moderation in life, such as in food and in sex." (from the Chapter on FRIENDLY ADVICE, p. 147; N.B. This quote is literally the closing line or last words of the book.) THREE MORE QUOTES FROM CLEARY'S INTRO TO UNDERSTANDING REALITY :- 09 - "A practical procedure for repelling yin and fostering yang often presented in Taoist texts basically consists of standing aloof from the dominant mundane aspect of the mind - that is, acquired habits of thought and feeling - in order to increase awareness of the recessive celestial mind, which is considered the original, primordial mind." (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 12) 10 - "The five bases and five things are further said to contain, respectively, five virtues and five thieves. The five virtues represent qualities which are held to simultaneously promote social health and personal develop- ment. The five thieves are emotions and cravings, called thieves or bandits because their indulgence robs the individual of energy, reason, and inner autonomy. This drainage is held to be the cause of phy- ical and mental decline. Thus the aim of Complete Reality Taoism is to govern the five things by the five bases, and subordinate the five thieves to the five virtues." (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 12) 11 - "Guard against [the] abuse of such practices by ignorant imitators, because sexual yoga is held to be potentially hazardous, as a modern Taoist explains: 'The interaction of yin and yang (here meaning female and male) is inconceivable; if the practice of the southern school is not done properly, it can easily cause illness.' " (Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 30) To All You Wayfaring Seekers and Friends ~ It is my desire and intent to comment on many of the notes and remarks made in this thread, time permitting, but it may take a few days. I'm going to be fairly busy for the next few days, and may not really find the time until this Sunday. I am particularly interested in probing further into the Taoist psychology of the passions, as pertaining to (in the words of master Hua Ching Ni) "a suitable sexual expression." I believe this was a subject already broached by Max, but I feel it deserves or warrants further exploration. Max also referred to Master Hua Ching Ni (if I'm not mistaken) as one of the principal sources for his Taoist vision and praxis. With that in mind, I thought posting the above excerpts from book, as they strike me as being highly relevant to the subject of developing "a suitable sexual expression" for the practicing Taoist. The Three Quotes from Cleary also strike me as equally or no less relevant, in that regard. Feel free to offer your thoughts on any or all of them, specifically regarding their direct or indirect bearing (as the case may be) upon the healthy "sexual expression" of Taoists, according to sound principle(s). In the spirit of the Tao, Yen Hui

Hi there Taomeow ~ Taomeow, I must confess that what you're saying is starting to make a lot of sense with me, though I'm not yet inclined to go as far with it as you might. It is certainly more than plausible, when viewed from a certain perspective. I am rethinking the possibilities. You present a compelling case with merit! There is no doubt that "concealing the light" describes our own times. His 'Maoism' has 'concealment' written all over it. However, it might be pushing things a little too far to say his interests in the other paths were indulged merely as an act of 'concealment'. You have succeeded at getting me to look at it again from another angle. Kudos! First, the two Chinese characters for "buddha" strike me as implying that a real 'buddha' is both human and not-human. S/he exists in a state of perfect poise between being and non-being; both supremely human and supremely above the mundane, as far as heaven is above the earth. The buddha thus symbolizes the state of true balance and harmony between the sublime and the mundane, or between the celestial mind essence and the material body itself. The two characters for "wizard" strike me as implying something similar, in regard to achievement. The Taoist Wizard is a mountain in comparison to ordinary people. The image of the mountain conveys much, not least of which is the notion of duration or longevity. Thus the "wizard" is one who has penetrated the Mysterious Pass and become "immortalized". Her abode is atop the mountain, where Immortals ride upon the wind, concealed in the breath of the dragon. In regard to her rootedness and the stillness of her mind, she is like Mt. Everest! In the spirit of the Tao, Yen Hui

Hi there to All You Wayfaring Seekers ~ Just wanted to say thanks for your thought-provoking replies. As someone has recently expressed to me, they provide some excellent pointers for further study! Pietro ~ Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to share with us the teachings of Master Frantzis. I hold him in high regard, for sure! Sorry, btw, to hear about your computer going 'kaput'. Tell your friend, for us, that we all appreciate his/her lending you one. If you can't reply again til after Easter, no problem; we'll understand why. Now, to return again to your 'first' post, I've read the Wikipedia article you recommended, as well as the 'Rare Interview with Cleary' (linked to that article) and neither one of them says anything specific, that I can remember, about his spiritual practice(s) and affiliation(s). I'm talking about specific details, rather than vague intimations, if any at all. While Cleary does say, in 'the Interview', that he exists or operates 'independently', in regard to group affiliations, or the lack thereof. Such a statement is utterly vague at best, however, and cannot possibly serve as the basis for determining his spiritual commitment(s) and affiliation(s). If you would'nt mind, though, could you please explain for us how you know he's not really a Taoist. Does translating more Buddhist writings than Taoist ones mean he's not a Taoist? If being a Buddhist means you're not a Taoist, then how do you explain the Teacher of Master Frantzis? "His teacher was both a taoist and a neo-taoist ... He was also a buddhist and a confucianist ... a remarkable person." Is'nt it possible that the same situation might apply to Cleary; unless, of course, you have some more definite information to go on, obtained from a reliable source? Thanks, that would be appreciated! References to his written publications, if possible, would be equally appreciated! This remark/reply leads me to suspect you're unsure about Cleary's spiritual 'commitments'. However, if practicing 'Taoism' does not make us 'Taoists', in some genuine or real way, then what does? Yes, just like Master Bruce's Teacher. So far, I understand. It sounds as though you're saying Cleary is guilty of superimposing or fusing a foreign "moral/ethical system" to whatever aspects of Taoism he might practice. Once again, though, I would like to know on what ground(s) you base such a determination? Perhaps there is good ground(s) for it, but they're presently unknown to me, so some material evidence would help a little. I have owned a few of his books over the years, but cannot recall, off-hand, reading much, if anything, of an autobiographical nature that would lend support to such an assessment of his commitments. But I am quite open to learning 'new' things. Well, I feel certain Cleary is not guilty of the above "reasoning process". He's one of the world's best or foremost authorities on the Buddhist and Taoist Canons, and you don't get to that level by stooping to new levels of intellectual laziness and dishonesty. He is not as meticulous, I admit, as I wish he was, with critical notations and documentations, but he holds his own and better among the heavyweights in those fields. At least that's how I presently view him, until I learn differently or better. This is a subject of deep interest to me, to be honest. According to my limited research, though, the seeds of Neo-Taoism were already sown in the time(s) of Chuang Tzu and Lieh Tzu; if Neo-Taoism means departing, in some way (or measure), from the precise form of Taoism which is transmitted to us through the Tao Te Ching. Scholars admit some philosophical differences between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. This is even true of Eva Wong, according to what I read in her Shambhala Guide to Taoism. Regarding Ms. Eva Wong's Guide, it is not without defect, as for example, in her treatment (or lack thereof) of the Huainanzi. If you disagree, then tell us what she says about the Huai-Nan-Tzu. But if the Law of Change was not already at work in the Chuang Tzu, if was no doubt clearly manifest in the Huai-Nan-Tzu; if not in the Huai-Nan-Tzu, then in the publication of the 2nd century Triplex Unity; and most certainly in the 3rd and 4th century writings of Wang Pi (d. 249 AD) and Kuo Hsiang (d. 312 AD). The point I'm making is that since Taoism is a living force, it has passed through several transformations. So, in my personal opinion, the sages of Complete Reality Taoism were no less Taoist in spirit and practrice than either Kuo Hsiang and Wang Pi. What I find interesting, though, is that the Neo-Taoist writings are included in the "official" taoist Canon, and I feel that must, in some degree, admit their completely Taoist character and organic unity with the historical flow of complete reality and traditional Taoist praxis. Question: If Taoism, Neo-Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism are so contradictory, as some people here are inclined to say, how did the Teacher of Master Frantzis manage to reconcile/unify them; or how do you justify his practice of the four paths?

I must say Paul your simplicity and rigorous minimalism is, in one sense, most admirable!

OK, I don't have any time left today for further replies, so they'll need to wait until tomorrow. However, since you declare yourself a "true" Taoist, then I presume you'll refrain from commenting on Buddhist views of sex, or any other traditions outside of Taoism. I will just consider such remarks as irrelevant, seeing that you are not commenting on them either from inside those traditions, or from a "scholarly" point-of-view. With regard to Cleary, can you tell me for certain that he does not practice any forms of Taoist cultivation? Nevertheless, it is useless to try and say that Cleary does'nt know anything about Taoism, or in unqualified to comment on Taoist praxis. Well, that's it ~ got'ta run now! Later all! In the spirit of the Tao, Yen Hui

A father has six daughters. He wants to practice sexual alchemy, but cannot find any women to play with, except his six grown daughters, all in their 20's. The daughters all agree to let him have his way with them, continuously, until his goal is realized. Is there a problem with this? Again, what do you mean? The Catholic view of sex is not the Taoist view. Agree or disagree? That is not the Taoist view. That is not what you said earlier: You said "there is only the need to propagate the species." According to Taoism, sexual yoga is not for "propagating the species."

True! Point well-taken, actually. Again I must agree, as this is the way the ancients approached the Tao. The "official" Taoist Canon itself, at least what has survived of it, runs to well over a thousand volumes; and if one counts all the canonical writings that were burned and lost over the millenia, it would run to well over two thousand volumes, most probably! And that's just the "official" canonized writings. If one counts all the Taoist writings ever published, including those of our own contemporary times, the number would double or even tripple, easily! So, we are in good company when attempting to articulate the mysteriously profound and subtle Way! True enough, but the discussion does not need to be limited to purely historical examples. Despite its present state, "Taoism" continues to be a "living" tradition, with contemporary lineage holders; though few and far between, by comparison to its "golden" years. Master Hua Ching Ni represents a genuine "lineage"; Master Mantak Chia another; and the same holds true about several contemporary masters. What this 'living' tradition has to say about the subject is entirely germane to the discussion. Still, only if it adheres to the 'canonical' teachings and to complete reality. Furthermore, persons may contribute insight(s) from their own direct experience of Taoist sexuality and praxis, (within reason, of course,) if they are able to demonstrate its decidedly 'Taoist' character. Just to help facilitate the discussion, Sean, please document your source(s) when using quotations, so we can check them, or provide a link to where it can be located online. I'm not entirely sure where the above quote is sourced from, just for the record. At any rate, here are chapters 8 and 27 of the Tao Te Ching:- Tao Te Ching 8 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap08 Higher good is like water: the good in water benefits all, and does so without contention. It rests where people dislike to be, so it is close to the Way. Where it dwells becomes good ground; profound is the good in its heart, benevolent the good it bestows. Goodness in words is trustworthiness, goodness in government is order; goodness in work is ability, goodness in action is timeliness. But only by non-contention is there nothing extreme. Cleary offers the following commentary on the above words:- "Chen Jingyaun says that water symbolizes having an open heart, dispassionately adapting to changes, according to the time. The latter part of this chapter, about goodness in words, government, work, and action, clearly shows that Taoism was not quietistic, introverted, or amoral, and not opposed to the original spirit of Confucianism." ( Taoist Classics, V. 1, p. 112) However, having said that, Cleary also offers the following observations with regard to the Taoist view of sexuality:- "In Complete Reality Taoism, sexuality has no moral associations, and its operation and employment are treated as a practical issue. The basic premise in this regard is that sexual activity can either boost or deplete energy; the fundamental aim of Complete Reality praxis seems to be to control and consciously direct sexuality - neither celibacy nor indulgence, according to Chang Po-tuan, author of Understanding Reality, will take one to the goal. In Chang's southern school of Complete Reality Taoism, sexual intercourse (both physical and mental) was used to cultivate energy, bliss, and health, especially in the case of practitioners of advanced age. As with breathing exercises and psychosomatic concentration practices, sexual techniques are considered hazardous if improperly performed. Taoist literature abounds with warnings about the misuse of sexuality, both technically and generally; as with other aspects of life in the world, the matter is presented as a question of whether one is controlled by one's energies, or in control of them." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 20-21 ) Tao Te Ching 27 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap27 Good works are trackless, good words are flawless, good planning isn't calculating. What is well closed has no bolt locking it, but cannot be opened. What is well bound has no rope confining it, but cannot be untied. Therefore sages always consider it good to save people, so that there are no wasted humans; they always consider it good to save beings, so that there are no wasted beings. So good people are teachers of people who are not good. People who are not good are students of people who are good. Those who do not honor teachers or care for students are greatly deluded, even in knowledgeable. This is called an essential subtlety. Question 1: Do Lao Tzu, Chen Jingyuan, and Thomas Cleary distinguish between good and evil, in the above words? Question 2: Does such a distinction, then, imply a distinction between right and wrong, or justice and injustice? Yes, the sage remains "true to the Tao" by following his heart, but not ordinary people. Both the I Ching and Tao Te Ching distinguish the sage or superior person from ordinary people. The sage is described as having become like an innocent child. See Hexagram 25 @ http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/chou_i/h25.html , for example:- THE JUDGMENT INNOCENCE. Supreme success. Perseverance furthers. If someone is not as he should be, He has misfortune, And it does not further him To undertake anything. Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By devotion to this divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certainty brings about supreme success and "furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds." [End of Quote] According to the above viewpoint, only the pure in heart hit upon the Way "instinctively". This is implied in the following words of Lao Tzu, himself :- Tao Te Ching 03 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap03 Therefore the government of sages empties the mind and fills the middle, weakens the ambition and strengthens the bones, always keeping the people innocent and passionless. Tao Te Ching 10 @ http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Englis..._TTK.html#Kap10 "As understanding reaches everywhere, can you be innocent?"

Sir Paul, thanks for chiming in. In regard to the "original" oneness or unity of the Three Treasures, Thomas Cleary makes the following observation(s):- "Vitality, energy, and spirit might be defined as the fundamental productive, kinetic, and conscious forces of life. In Taoism they are said to be originally one, yet spoken of as threefold because of their temporal specialization into the energies of sexuality, metabolism, and thought. There are practices which involve the temporal conditioned forms of the three treasures - sexual exercises, breathing exercises, and controlled imagination; but these are said (by numerous authors, including Chang Po-tuan, author of Understanding Reality) to be limited in that they do not produce permanent results. In addition, there are said to be mental and physical dangers associated with such practices. Many texts therefore make a point of dismissing them or relegating them to a secondary place." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 19 ) My sense or feeling is that Master Hua Ching Ni would not disagree with the above statement by Cleary. But if you would'nt mind clarifying your meaning Paul, for me (us?), are you saying that sex for any reason other than procreation constitutes a deviation from the correct Taoist attitude toward it, and therefore from Taoist praxis?

I somehow missed this reply earlier, and just now noticed it. Thanks, therion. hi there Sean ~ Just wondering here if you know whether there are any first generation Shifu Chang disciples living in Canada? Thanks.

hmmm ... this sounds like the same message Master John Chang received during his two year seclusion! If we think real teachers are rare now, it sounds as though the situation is much graver than even that. This is something for us all to seriously reflect on; and let us hope the year 2012 witnesses a new infusion of "real" knowledge from "real" people!

It was an indirect reference to the non-sexual methods of the Northern Sect of Complete Reality Taoism. I'm not going to go into depth with this, other than to say that I'm not feeling, i.e. sensing the spirit of the Tao in this thread. But perhaps that's just my problem. This is what Cleary says about it, though:- The main difference in the methods of the northern and southern schools (of the Complete Reality Sect) apparently lies in the use or otherwise of sexual yoga and the waterwheel exercise. This is suggested by the epithets given to the schools based on their practices: the northern school is commonly called the sect of "pure serenity," referring to silent meditation, while the southern school is often called the sect of "grafting" or "twin cultivation of yin and yang," in reference to the use of sexual exercises. One modern Taoist gives an interesting explanation of the reason for this difference: "The northern school emphasizes purity and stillness, as transmitted by Ch'iu Ch'ang-ch'un (a disciple of Wang Che); the southern school emphasizes grafting, as transmitted by Chang Po-tuan. Ch'ang-ch'un's lineage involved people who practiced the Tao in youth or middle age, none of whom were over sixty years old. Chang Po-tuan's lineage mostly included elderly people over eighty, whose temporal vitality and energy were insufficient and had to be replenished by grafting; therefore it is called the method of mutual supplementation of yin and yang. However, after replenishment, they also had to practice in the same way as the school of pure serenity." ( Taoist Classics, V. 2, p. 29-30 )