Lucky7Strikes

Man, here we go again with the chicken and the egg...

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When someone has cut you, medicine is applied. And initially there will be pain during treatment. To be afraid of that pain and to let the cut become infected and deeper, is what fools do. But I promise you that when the cut begins to heal, you will experience an expanding sense of freedom and bliss that is beyond what a little pill can do for you (speaking from personal experience of course ) When you say letting go of control, that is a very meaningless statement until you investigate into your nature. How can you let go of anything when you yourself is not sure the subject that is doing the letting go? "Doing what you want" is also a very silly notion when you consider what exactly it is that a person wants.

Uh...nothing about Buddha dosing on hallucinogens, except that he meditated under a Datura grove... Shaman: Intermediary between men and spirits.... Are you on the Path for amazing spiritual experiences? For the bliss? For hallucinogenic visions? These questions are for you. Not for the shamans. Or are you a shaman? If so, why are you a shaman?

And where exactly do these valid paths lead to? Yes drugs have their uses and so does a pile of poop . And besides from that image from which you make the somewhat ridiculous assertion that the Buddha used hallucinogens...do you have more proof?

Hey Chris, thanks for the book recommendation. By the way, when is the Kunlun movie coming out?

UG was a retarded egomaniac who had deep insecurity issues. He was an angry, angry man. You can do Kunlun in the privacy of your own home...don't really know what you're saying there... Edit: Original sentence was contradictory...haha the irony... Drugs don't get you anywhere if you are doing these practices for the right reasons. Actually drugs won't get you anywhere. PERIOD.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHHA! Brilliant! I started the thread after talking about dependent origination and emptiness with my father. The conversation went something like this, Me: "All things are inherently empty and made from dependently originated conditions!" Pops: "Yes, but who understands/thinks/preaches emptiness"? Me: "No, no, emptiness is not a concept, it's how the world is" Pops: "Yes, and whose idea is that?" Me: "Well, mine...? No but I'm just a mix of dependently originated causes and manifestations!" Pops: "Yes and who realizes that?" At this point, I realized the very folly of grasping onto the idea of emptiness, self, or any sort of assertion that declares the world to be in such and such a way. Why? Because one would inevitably fall into the trap of the mind/ego declaring an idea! I say chicken, and it will be the egg. And I say egg, and it will be the chicken. I say both, and it'll be two. i say two, and it'll be one. And so on and so on.... Biology wise, pie guy is probably right. Simultaneous coming into being as chicken and the egg. But what exactly is spontaneity, but a manifestation of a timeless event? Would that be an event...? Hahaha...and here goes another chicken and the egg...on and on... So in the end, I just sat down and shut up, be it chicken or the egg.

When you say you have decided to dedicate your life to it, I hope you are careful enough to see through the dangers of such...dedication.... You can't think of anything else to dedicate yourself to? Why did you start Kunlun in the first place?

I had grounding problems too when I started doing energy practices. Whenever you walk, you should be mindful of each and every step connecting yourself to the earth. Focus your intentions on the tailbone, base, feet, and the joints. Make it a habit. I might be wrong on this, but grounding is also working on your base/root chakra. I also recommend regular sitting practices like zazen, or Qi Gong stances like holding the tree posture. Why are you so concerned with opening the chakras one by one? I'm not sure if that's wise approach. .

Yeah yeah, don't do Kunlun unless you're brave like me and open Pandora's box! You cannot go back! I have grown so much and harmonized through things. I swear!! They were hard on the psyche!! So be careful! We're here to be blissful and follow the heart's desire!! And be joyous!! P.S. No one should question into their own nature either, because it will really really mess them up. .

My opinion is that there is always a hierarchy when one is trying to learn. For example, you learn the alphabet first before learning words and sentences. As you say, if you see the dirt, you'll learn from dirt. But I'm not sure that's what you actually said. . A teacher doesn't have to be a person. Animals, deities, the elements, celestial beings, and so on can also manifest as "teachers" and therefore establish a hierarchy of learning. You can call this an "institution" or whatever, but why is that in any way important? Corruption is therefore not the problem with religious hierarchy itself, but with the individuals that make up that hierarchy. Usually it happens when the notion of a hierarchy is amplified. So just forget it!

Start out with a koan. You already sort of have one right there. What is the result one is hoping to obtain through meditation? For some students, the Shikantaza meditation (letting things go) is a good place to start, but I personally don't think this is a good idea. It's like learning to run with a big chain on your ankle. In fact, you need a koan that will absolutely break down every conventional thought you've held. Mu! (Emptiness!) or Who am I? or What is this? are all good places to start. The inquiry HAS TO BE INTENSE. HAS TO BE PERSONAL! Isn't it the utmost important matter to investigate into the nature of your existence? Or will you just be swept up by the toils and torments of society until you just...die... . You must give everything to the question. Why? Because everything is unimportant compared to it. Also, I strongly suggest learning basic Qi Gong energy practices to balance yourself out. And it's really fun if done right. Once you've partially grasped the un-graspable nature of things, then go into Shikantaza meditation. 24/7! .

Which came first Josh Young, the egg or the chicken? I would've expected you to say something in the lines of, "the chicken came first because the egg is made up of all the components of the chicken" . And maybe someone would've come along and say something in the lines of, "NO but WHAT is that chicken in the first place but a developed egg?"

As an offshoot of an earlier thread on opposite sexes... It is often accepted among Buddhist circles that the source of suffering is craving/desire. As a result, people try to suppress and control their desires in order to cultivate samadhi, mindfulness, etc. Most of you probably know this basic route. In Daoism, there is more focus in following the ways of nature. For example, in Chunag Tzu, there are counless stories where the virtuous Confucious gets criticized for his upright ways. He even gets lectured by a bandit. So what exactly about craving brings suffering? What does it mean to subdue desire? It is my personal opinion that there really is nothing wrong with desire and wanting. But rather it is the attachment, a definition, a habit, and a concrete thought (energetic blockage if you will) that creates suffering. One inevitably arises from the other, but the true cause of suffering seems to be more about the latter. The difference can be subtle, but very very impotant. What you think?

As you say, surely that first cause has its own cause? Then again, seeing that both are dependent on each other, how can you definitely say, "it is neither the chicken nor the egg" When it is the same as saying, "it is both the chicken and the egg?" But then what meaning do such statements carry in trying to relate the reality of the chicken and the egg in the first place?

And what is me, That I should look into?

Would fear work in the opposite direction? As in the attention is trapped and walled within?

My original inquiry was into the very nature of desire and why it is commonly said to cause suffering. I believe that it isn't a wholesome approach to oppress desires believing that there is something fundamentally wrong with "craving" itself. So when we talk about stillness, the outcome can easily turn into a needless struggle. Stillness has its limits for people who live and were cultured in a society like ours today. But alchemy wise, your short essay on transforming jing to light is very concise and to the point. .

Great! Baby steps first I guess.. . If the intentions are good, hopefully someone will drop by with a sack of gold!

IMHO, the question "what is the origin of Taoism" is like asking "what is the origin of spirituality." and then one would look into what exactly spirituality is...and find that it is a concept that has too subjective of a definition...and...BLAH! BUT, I don't think answers like these are what skip was looking for. . So I'll just recommend a book I'm reading right now called Taoist Meditation by Isabelle Robinet. The beginning chapters have quite a few interesting stuff on the Mao Shan school's take on the creation cycle, deities, gods, and of course, the Tao. It's awesome, definitely check it out.

Money... Money is always the wall you run into when dreaming big like this... A school, research center, a clinic, a commune, a farm filled with virtuous cultivators? Wow...I wish there was a school like that and not necessarily a monastery. But money...land...connections... Whew! And one still needs to continue exploring the various methods out there... Got a lot to do .

This link was originally posted on the Kunlun forum by DFTF. It's not Kunlun!! . If you have read through Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk, you might have found it confusing. Well, at least I thought it was repetitive and all over the place. This guy sums up the process nicely though...yet it is still his own interpretation. There are two parts where the second part is by some guy who mainly studied Kundalini yoga. Enjoy! Edit: HAHA oops! I realized someone has posted this already like...yesterday. Apologies. Towards a new interpretation of Taoist Alchemy By Bryn Orr Taoist alchemy is a meditational practice which aims at increasing the practitioners sensitivity and control over the subtle energy (chi) fields both within the body's internal environment and external surroundings. Classical descriptions of this type of practice state that when a high level of proficiency is gained (through long-term daily practice) the practitioner will begin to experience intense, ecstatic states and to awaken latent extrasensory perceptions and other 'psychic' phenomenon. There are a number of different approaches and beliefs regarding the practice of Taoist alchemy, just as there are a number of different schools of Taoism eg. Mao-shan p'ai, Complete Reality (Ch'uan-chen tao), Spiritual Treasure Sect (Ling-pao p'ai), etc. Despite using common nomenclature and core concepts, such as 'Fusion of fire & water' (Kan/Li), 'Awakening the primordial treasure' (Yuan chi) and 'Return to the source', the interpretation of these ideas vary considerably. For example the work of Master Mantak Chia treats these concepts as techniques of gathering and transforming energy into various states using the physical body as an energetic laboratory 1. This approach is a typical example of alchemy as practiced by the Southern School or 'School of energetics'. The Complete Reality school, however view these central tenets of alchemy as being merely stages in the contemplation of our own mind, which in turn leads to an understanding of the true nature of reality 2. To further complicate matters, some sects treat the core concepts as a series of techniques to be practiced in a precise order, whilst others view the core concepts as a process that naturally unfolds as a result of deep meditation, regardless of the particular meditative technique used to achieve this state. It is this last idea that the remainder of this article will concern itself with. The core concepts which I have referred to previously are outlined in one Taoist chi kung text 3 in the following order: 1. The yuan chi is awakened in the lower Tan tien using regulated breathing, mental concentration and by placing weight underside (bringing centre of gravity to correspond with lower Tan tien - hence the importance of standing postures and developing the 'root' in T'ai Chi). 2. This yuan chi begins to ascend & descend between the lower Tan tien and middle Tan tien or between the heart (fire - li) and the kidneys (water - kan). This is referred to as 'the fusion of fire & water'. 3. The yuan chi is then able to move above the heart & into the head. It then flows up & down between the lower Tan tien & the upper Tan tien. The upper Tan tien is known as the Ni-wan or 'mud pill' and is located in the centre of the brain. The Ni-wan is composed of the Hypothalamus, pineal & pituitary glands. This stage is referred to as 'the opening of the thrusting vessel' or the zhong-gong direct flowing method 4. This central path of the thrusting vessel flows from the perineum, through the centre of the body or the spinal canal, up to the crown of the head. It may correspond to the Shushumna meridian of Kriya yoga, an Indian system with many parallels to Taoist alchemy. 4. The yuan chi begins to circulate through the microcosmic orbit, which is an energy loop running up the posterior surface of the spine and down through the anterior midline of the body into the lower Tan tien. This can lead to spontaneous movements and the production of the jade elixir. The jade elixir is the production of saliva that tastes sweet or honey-like. 5. Next the green dragon and white tiger vessels are opened by the yuan chi. These correlate to the left & right paths of the thrusting vessel found in Mantak Chia's system 5 and also to the Ida & Pingalla meridians mentioned in Kriya Yoga. It may be these vessels that are accessed through deep needling of the front points of the thrusting vessel (Stomach 30 and kidney 11-21) in acupuncture. 6. After the chi moving in the left and right mai (green dragon/white tiger) are brought together this leads to sounds (different from normal digestive sounds) being heard. This is the 'hiss of the dragon and the roar of the tiger.' Then the chi will vibrate in an inner chamber of the lower Tan tien. This signifies the formation of the golden foetus, an immortal spirit body which is able to access energies & planes of existence other than that occupied by our physical body. In the book 'Taoist Yoga' , this stage is known as 'driving the primordial spirit into the lower Tan tien' 6. 7. The energy of heaven and earth move through the thrusting vessel and into the lower Tan tien, which provides energetic nourishment for the golden foetus. 8. A golden light then appears to shine behind the eyes and the practitioner has feelings of ecstasy, which is a confirmatory sign that the latent abilities are awakened, immortality is gained and the goal of alchemy has been reached. It is interesting to note that 'The secret of the golden flower' also speaks of the golden light behind the eyes as a sign of great progress in Taoist meditation 7. The work of researcher Itzhak Bentov, a long-term meditator and author, is relevant to this discussion because despite being primarily a study of the physiological effects of Kundalini yoga and transcendental meditation, his work shows a greater number of direct parallels to Taoist alchemy than it does to the aforementioned systems. Bentov's work on the effects of meditation, labelled the 'physio-kundalini' model, describes the activation and entrainment of a number of bio-oscillators that cause lasting changes to our physical, mental and energetic functioning 8. These changes occur through daily meditational practice, and from personal experience, regardless of the meditative technique used. As such, Bentov's work may go a long way towards helping modern practitioners to understand what the ancient masters were trying to explain when they wrote the often obscure manuals on Taoist alchemy. Bentov's physio-kundalini model outlines the following stages in the meditative process: 1. During meditation the breathing becomes regular. This regulated breathing controls the rhythm of the heart 9. It is interesting to note that 'The secret of the golden flower' says that the breath energy is the handle of the heart, thus inferring that the heart rate cannot be influenced directly, only by altering our breathing pattern 10. This stage correlates with the awakening of the yuan chi at the lower Tan tien. 2. When the heart pumps this causes a pressure wave to travel down the aorta. When this wave reaches the aortic bifurcation, the part where the aorta splits in two to supply blood to both legs, a portion of the pressure wave is reflected back towards the heart. When this wave reaches the aortic valve (at the heart) it causes the heart to beat again. This creates a standing wave between the heart and aortic bifurcation, which in turn causes a rhythmic up and down micro-motion throughout the body 11. This stage of Bentov's model correlates almost exactly to the Kan/Li cycle, if we consider that the aortic bifurcation is at approximately the same location as the lower Tan tien. Bentov's model has a wave travelling up and down between the heart and aortic bifurcation, the Taoist text states that in the Kan/Li stage energy flows between the seat of fire (the heart) and the seat of water (lower Tan tien). 3. The micromotion of the body causes an up & down motion within the cranial vault. This creates a gentle bumping of the brain against the cranial vault. This interaction of the brain and cranial vault creates acoustic (and possibly electrical) plane waves, which in turn set up a resonant wave in the hollow, fluid-filled ventricles inside the brain 12. This idea of an energy which firstly moves between the lower Tan tien & heart (or middle Tan tien) and then between the lower Tan tien and the brain (upper Tan tien) is paralleled in the Taoist practice of 'opening the thrusting vessel', mentioned above. 4. The movement of the fluid in the ventricles acts on the nerves of the middle ear, causing inner sounds to be heard 13. This offers a physiological explanation of the inner sounds referred to, by Taoist mystics, as 'the hiss of the dragon and the roar of the tiger'. (It is also worth noting that the lateral ventricles resemble the Indian description of the third eye chakra which is described as a flower with two petals, one to the left and the other to the right of the centre.) 5. The acoustic standing waves in the ventricles creates an up & down movement in the corpus callosum (the bundle of nerves connecting the two hemispheres of the brain). This is translated into electrical energy within the brain tissue. The electrical activity follows a circular path through the sensory cortex, which leads to corresponding sensations in various parts of the body 14. "It has been found by researchers that the 'energy sensation' travels up the legs to the spine to the top of the head, then down the face, through the throat, to a terminal point in the abdomen." 15 Whilst Bentov's research was primarily concerned with Kundalini yoga, it is interesting to note that he found that the energy sensations experienced by meditators follow a path that is very similar to the microcosmic orbit of Taoist alchemy 16. This is a stark contrast to the path of energy discussed in the classical texts of Kundalini yoga which describe a path of energy starting at the perineum, ascending the spine and ending at the crown of the head 17. 6. Through regular meditation, the circuit through the sensory cortex begins to polarise the grey matter in one specific direction. This creates a permanent circuit in the brain and helps to release stored stresses, which may account for the lasting changes in physical and psychological functioning caused by meditation. This circuit grows to include the pleasure centres in the limbic system, the motor cortex (which controls the voluntary muscle movement) and areas of the visual cortex. Effects of the stimulation of these areas include feelings of bliss, spontaneous bodily movements and sensations of being surrounded by a brilliant light 18. As we know from our earlier discussion of the stages of Taoist alchemical meditation, the sensation of bliss and golden light are both signs which confirm great progress towards the meditators 'return to the source' or union with the Tao. Our Taoist text also mentions that the establishment of the microcosmic orbit can lead to spontaneous movement, in full agreement with Bentov's research. The idea of meditation establishing an electrical circuit in the brain finds a number of parallels in the Taoist tradition. Mantak Chia has a number of advanced alchemical formulas that draw energy into the brain, these include the 'sealing of the five senses' and 'congress of heaven & earth', which fuses the energies of the pineal & pituitary gland in the cauldron of the hypothalamus 19. The Mao Shan Taoist tradition has a practice known as 'walking the nine chambers of the crystal palace [upper Tan tien]' which involves visualising various deities within different parts of the brain 20. These nine chambers are the highest field of the elixir, chamber of the mysterious elixir, chamber of the Jade Emperor, chamber of the moving pearls, chamber of splendour, purple chamber, chamber of the ultimate, cover of heaven and the chamber of government. The third eye is also mentioned but is considered as an opening rather than a chamber, as such it is called the 'Entrance of the spirit' 21. These chambers may be an analogy used by Taoist mystics to convey the formation of the aforementioned electrical circuit within the brain. The walking through the chambers would represent movement of electrical current or qi from one part of the brain to another. In conclusion it can be seen that there is some merit to the idea that Taoist alchemy may be a description of a natural process which occurs through the practice of meditation, regardless of the particular technique or tradition, and not merely a collection of ancient visualisation techniques. This is not to say that the ideas contained within this paper are the truth of the matter, but rather that they should encourage further investigation into these ancient arts, and comparison with contemporary research such as that done by Itzhak Bentov and others. I welcome feedback on this article and hope that it inspires the reader to re-examine the wisdom of the ancients. Bryn Orr lectures in Chinese Exercise Therapy at the Australian College of Natural Medicine. Bryn is a Chi Kung (qigong) practitioner and a Reiki/Seichim master who has published numerous articles on Taoist Alchemy and energetics for magazines such as Silvercord, Magick, Insight, Mystic Revelations and The Pacific Journal of Oriental Medicine.

Every Taobum should take it! A great variety of information, not just Kundalini. Fairly priced too. .

Why shouldn't I have cake and eat it too? 'Tis only natural... Hmm, then I must've misunderstood you. But I agree, technique and practice should go hand in hand. BTW, Why do you keep apologizing in your posts? Lighten up guy. .