stirling

Welcome to the board!

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There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity - Shuryu Suzuki

Enlightened activity gnows itself. 

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There is just a mysterious tacit understanding and no more. - Huang Po

That "tacit understanding" belongs to no-one.

Hope you don't mind - I split this question from the thread you posted in. There is a lot of dark, angry baggage there that would probably detract from your question.  _/\_

Welcome to the board. I’d be interested to hear about the world view that comes with the magical systems you have worked in.

Welcome to the board!

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Don't worry that it might not agree with your teachings .... because

Ah.... not so concerned with my teachings so much as actual experience in this moment.  

I had the pleasure of living in London for a while and getting to go to the Theosophical Society for lectures and other things, as well as Sogyal Rinpoche's Rigpa organization. Definitely the Theosophists borrowed from myriad sources. I actually LOVED their whole gestalt, but didn't end up working in that system much... it felt like a kludge to me. 

Thanks for bringing them up. 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

He does have a 'way with words'   .

 

  

… and he speaks with great clarity about something he is intimately familiar with, that just happens to be true. 🙂

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

TDB synchronicity had me stumbling upon this thread immediately after stumbling across this gem from Rupert Spira…

I just love that chap. 

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

...my friend has been to the akashic records.  He says it's possible to relive any past event through his astral body... but he can't change what he did, it's like seeing it and experiencing it emotionally, but thats it.  

 

He has no reason to lie... so I presumably believe him.  

The astral realm is timeless...as in not bound time, so it makes sense that one could journey along the timeline of anything and everything if they wanted to.  

 

He also likes to say that every heartbeat we have - actually is a force that inscribes our lives onto the universal spectrum of causation...  said another way - the akashic record is the record of everything caused by everything...its the causal sphere - that is everywhere.  It interpenetrates everything as it is the cause of everything.

I wouldn't accuse your friend of lying. He might have had an experience of that which he remembers vividly. I can remember my 18th birthday party, but it is ONLY a memory, not something I can see or experience now. This is the problem. 

As much as I love the idea, an Akashic records vault full of stories about he past and future violates everything that insight into emptiness/dao/Buddha nature clearly demonstrates about reality in this moment. Speaking solely for myself, I would only believe it if I saw it but it would have to violate everything I know about the ultimate qualities of reality, AND it would have to be something that was always available in this moment.

It is instructive, by way of an example, to look at what some enlightened teachers say about their ultimate conclusions on past lives. This example comes most easily to mind, but my teacher and others I have chatted to about this topic say essentially the same thing:

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I don’t want to talk to a lot of people about past lives, especially the radical nondualists who say that there is nobody who was born, there is nobody who has past lives, there are no incarnations, and so on. Of course, that is all true; it’s all a dream, even past lives. When I talk about them at all, I talk about them as past dreams. I dreamed I was this person; I dreamed I was that person. Personally, I’ve never tried to gather experiences of past lives and wrap them all up in some sort of metaphysical understanding. I don’t have a clear understanding about what a past life is, except that it seems clear to me that it also has the nature of a dream; it doesn’t have objective, actual existence. Nonetheless, the experience I had happened. Since it happened, I can’t say it didn’t happen. But in my own mind, I don’t try to figure it all out. All I know is what happened.” -  Adyashanti, The End of Your World: Uncensored Straight Talk on the Nature of Enlightenment

Experiences of past lives DO happen - but that doesn't mean they have any deeper reality than something you dream, or even something you did yesterday. Can you see your past life, or experience of the Akashic records in this moment? This is what matters. This is the litmus test for what is "real". Anything you are not experiencing in this this moment, where you are, is a story you are telling yourself. This is obvious where there is non-dual/unity understanding. Insight into the non-dual nature of reality is omnipresent - part of this moment of experiencing forever.

Nungali is right, this is a psychological problem, NOT a spiritual attainment of any kind. What you are saying does not go with any spiritual tradition any of us have heard of and there is a LOT of expertise here. There is no better idea about what to do, or better option than to seek medical and psychological aid. Please seek help.

I am locking this thread. 

Interesting to see this thread necro'd! 

As it turns out there is no need to combine emptiness and compassion, they are in fact inseparable. Where there is emptiness there is always compassion, though sometimes it takes a practice to open that compassion up.

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Is Dogen saying something there, when he says "find your place where you are", when he says "practice occurs", and when he says "actualizing the fundamental point"?

Yes, Dogen IS saying something, absolutely. He is saying: "When you actualize your practice it happens here... NOW." Realization of enlightenment doesn't happen in the past or future, it happens when you drop all of your doing and find sudden presence in this moment by sitting". Awaken, and actualize the practice NOW.

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What's the difference between "just sitting" on the couch watching the Simpsons, and the "just sitting" that is shikantaza? 

The dream of watching the world is the same as the dream of becoming engrossed watching television. The moment you become engaged in the story of what you watch you are lost. 

There is watching phenomena arise and pass, impermanent, not being caught up in the story of the mind. There is simple presence, and the emptiness of self/time/space. This happens all the time... it is just waiting for you to notice. Take a deep breath and let it out from your mouth slowly as you read this sentence. Maybe it is happening now as you read these words?

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:

 

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

Yes. Good. I like "awareneness" or "beingness" as descriptors. 

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

What he means here is that one can take observation of what this all is and reduce it, and reduce it again until one arrives at a final simple conclusion - there is just awareness shining back. 

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

("Take the Backward Step")

This is too complicated, IMHO. It's all really simple. No places, relationships, activities, or placement. This moment just is, and there is a simple awareness of that which belongs to no-one and no-thing - pervades the field of phenomena. Arriving at this simple understanding is hard for us humans, especially those of us with the burden of education. It took me years to realized what a handicap it was for me.

20 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

As far as realizing the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and so "just sitting", I"m not sure how that point of view enters into practice.

Practice is just being, without contrived concepts about how to go about it. You can find practices with massive to-do lists, but they all eventually point to this simple being. The Zen you got mixed up in so long ago is all about this simple "being" right from the start... the Theravada that interests you much less so, though they point at the same understanding.

21 minutes ago, doc benway said:

One challenge for me was hearing the silence in my tinnitus.

Your answer implies success.  I'm sure you found it. The "nada" sound is very similar to tinnitus too - I find them complementary. 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Where is your point of awareness when you make no effort to place it, that's the question:

it’s an excellent question to examine carefully. It is in fact everywhere in the field experience, and nowhere at all. You aren’t really doing Shikantaza until this is something that you can see properly. This is why Shikantaza is not different from enlightened mind. Everything is Mind. You are liberating all phenomena in the moment that labeling them stops.

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Unethical behavior:  To deliberately cause suffering or to not care if suffering is caused. - My teacher

4 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

I would disagree with you here; if texts are to be believed (which is in itself debatable), an 'enlightened master' should be one above the limitations of the flesh, no? 

Now, it is truly the road to mastery to have the strength to call yourself out, to submit yourself to correction, and to be willing to change, but I would argue that they must still be at the journeyman phase if they fall prey to such things. It doesn't mean they can't teach people, but 'mastery' should be taken quite seriously in my opinion...

Again, perhaps I am still just too young, dumb, and inexperienced! 😉

In Buddhism at least there are two classes of enlightenment: That which you might encounter in a living being, and that of those that have extinguished the karma of birth and death (those that are "dead").

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There are two stages in nirvana, one in life, and one final nirvana upon death; the former is imprecise and general, the latter is precise and specific. The nirvana-in-life marks the life of a monk who has attained complete release from desire and suffering but still has a body, name and life. The nirvana-after-death, also called nirvana-without-substrate, is the complete cessation of everything, including consciousness and rebirth. This main distinction is between the extinguishing of the fires during life, and the final "blowing out" at the moment of death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#Nirvana_with_and_without_remainder_of_fuel

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Its a Bhakti Yoga practice - so 'union' .  or maybe even  'cultivating a non - dual awareness '   ?   

Probably. Still.

2 hours ago, Surya said:

No Sir, my health might be quite far from ideal, but I am certainly not dyeing : ) I am confident that they were not refering to that either, as they stressed that I could continue my material experience in this very body and this life time.

 

 

Not a bad idea, all three of them will be gone for about a month or so. 

I wouldn't voluntarily submit to an assisted process labelled "dying" without a clear idea of what that means in context. When you have more information about the process or intent, please share here what that might entail. 

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

case in point

I can see how you could take exception, and apologize if I have offended you - but why don't we go ahead and use it as you suggest? Would you be open to explaining what you mean by that?

3 hours ago, Surya said:

Isckon. The intention, I am not sure. It is not a stable of the society, as far as I am aware. As far as I see it, they are about love and service. My guru is no doubt a humble and loving soul.

So, Hare Krishnas, yes? A quick google says that leaving your body seems to refer to a death practice. Are you dying?

Enlightenment wouldn't require that you leave your body, but would show you that "you" are not your body.

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

what is the saying, it's easy to be "calm kind thoughtful humorous" in normal life circitumstances.  Anyone can do that. But the whole point of spiritual mastery or having a toolbox of spiritual practices, is to be that way when life circumstances are NOT normal.

Let me put it this way: Most of us are quite convinced that Santa Claus isn't likely to be visiting this December because we now understand that it was just a story our parents told us.  That knowledge is true no matter WHAT events take place in our day to day life, regardless of how difficult they are. So it is with understanding of the Dao.

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Bold above is a red flag when is is used to justify bad behavior rather than taking resonsibility for it.  It perpetuates and propagates and condones bad behavior  instead of demonstrating accountabilitiy.   Every emotion, thought, speech, action a person has absolutely belongs to that person and they are 100% responsible for it.  If someone is hot-headed and prone to fits of rage for instance, those absolutely belong to the person.  And they are 100% accountable for their actions that flow from that. 

I stand by what I said above 100%. "Self" is a pernicious delusion that is at the heart of our suffering. Once that delusion is understood it is always present, regardless of how one behaves. The knowledge does not create a perfect "person", but does alter one's behavior substantially. 

Justification is a different issue. What we are talking about here is "spiritual bypassing" - using real or imagined "enlightenment" as some justification that all behaviors are "perfect" is delusion. Gnostic knowledge does not excuse bad behavior. This sort of teacher is deficient in compassion training. Any teacher that acts in a questionable manner would call it out immediately and correct themselves, or submit to correction at whatever level necessary. Again - it doesn't mean that they aren't enlightened necessarily. It takes many years after "awakening" to drop the most pernicious aspects of "self". Some things never go away. Some will never be teachers, and it isn't important that they ever are.

An understanding of the Dao is always present, even when anger arises, and a master with no "self" may witness anger arise in the body, but not experience that as "self", or "mine". 

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

I'm not understanding this part, but would like to.

It's just plain human and kind to open up to those you see struggling, even a "master", if you have a close enough relationship. What could be learned about the teacher's process in examining their feelings and thoughts about a sticky issue? If this person really knows that all appearances are ultimately "empty", possibly a lot.

What tradition is this? What is the ultimate intention for this practice? 

14 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

a related question for me is does the teacher walk the talk.  Looking at a teacher's actions and behavior in daily life.  If a teacher claims to help people with addiction, but chain smokes and drinks then their clients and students are going to question the  benefits and effectiveness that teacher can offer.

What matters is whether the teacher has attachment or aversion to smoking or drinking. Chogyam Trungpa was a famously heavy drinker, but only a fool would question the depth of his understanding or teachings. His book "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" is a stark but kind bitchslap that many people could use. 

Ultimately the fabric of this "universe" is a mirror for each of us, showing us our attachments, aversions and where we are stuck in our solidified ideas about how things have to be. For some, it will takesa smoking, drinking teacher to wake us up and see that what we are seeking is deeper than the facade of the human that might be presenting the teachings. 

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

Advocating is good, but creating an entire political system, leading revolution, or steering the world from a seat of political power, even for the sake of the unfortunate, is inherently an egotistical act. It generates many karmic links, does harm, and will inevitably be corrupted by time. This is wonderful for the physical world, but again, not the act of a spiritual master.

Masters are NOT administrators.