stirling
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Posts posted by stirling
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On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:I was not referring only to ephemeral states. Eg after long term therapy people see the world very differently too, it's not an ASC like a Jhana or like a psychedelics-induced state, but it's permanent, people who are there quickly recognise one another, cannot go back to a conditioned way of seeing things etc.
Yeah... that's a different thing. I was different after experimenting with LSD in my teens and twenties in much the same way. I was thankful for it, and would meet people at parties and often know intuitively that they had also had that experience. Also, when I discovered that taking an entry level dose of Klonipin could erase my anxiety it was quite an eye opener. The realization that most people didn't walk around in anxiety was a revelation... but not the same kind of eye opener that realizing that all appearances are empty of "self" and other... just not in any way comparable in scale. It is the second that permanently cured the off and on generalized anxiety I had enjoyed from childhood, not first and the associated therapy. I am NOT invalidating therapy, which I have found helpful in other contexts, merely talking about my personal experience.
I'm curious, why are you meditating when you don't believe in the central premise for its existence - what it is supposed to be according the tradition (Zen) you say you practice in? It is INTENDED to dig up your personal stuff, and would actually train you to notice with curiosity when you become fixated with attachment or aversion.
On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:Self remains, because it is a real thing, but it's a "truer" self.
What? Nah.
Self is a story you tell yourself moment to moment. Which of your "selves" is the true one? The one you inhabit when you are with your partner? Someone in a shop? With your parents? With an officer of the law when you have been pulled over? Self comes and goes, shifts and changes. It is possibly the easiest object to see impermanence in.
On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:Insight alone can't remove conditioning, at least not for most people ( even without disorders or trauma), more tools are needed but also in practical terms, the tools cannot be self-applied as they rely on transference - not the intellectual framework of transference per se, rather the phenomenon which the intellectual framework attempts to describe.
This is not my experience, and I daresay that of many of my teaching peers. I am being honest here, not gaslighting you.
On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:Now it is true that therapy, in general [*], won't bring cessation, as this is not a therapeutic goal nor does therapy in general even have tools for cessation but with respect to removing conditioning, it's extremely effective at that.
Oh definitely therapy is helpful in working with conditioning for many people. Thank you for your service to them.
On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:For spiritual goals the only form of therapy which explicitly has such goals is Jungian analysis and its individuation process. In that framework, the "Unus Mundus" is the ultimate reality that can be experienced, though this is by no means guaranteed nor trivial.
Had to look it up, though I did enjoy reading Jung a bit in my 16 credits of psychology in college:
QuoteDorn's explanation is illuminating in that it affords us a deep insight into the alchemical mysterium coniunctionis. If this is nothing less than a restoration of the original state of the cosmos and the divine unconsciousness of the world, we can understand the extraordinary fascination emanating from this mystery. It is the Western equivalent of the fundamental principle of classic Chinese philosophy, namely the union of yang and yin in tao, and at the same time a premonition of that “tertium quid” which, on the basis of psychological experience on the one hand and Rhine’s experiments on the other, I have called “synchronicity”. If mandala symbolism is the psychological equivalent of the unus mundus, then synchronicity is its parapsychological equivalent.
— Carl Jung, Mysterium Coniunctionishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unus_mundus
That's what I'm talking about (at least the part that I italicized)! Have you read Dogen by any chance:
QuoteTo study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly. - Dogen, Genjo Koan
The restoration of the original state is the Tao. The behavior of a Buddha is "wu wei", alignment, presence. It is alignment and synchronization with everything, as it is happening moment to moment. It would be a little tough if there was a "self" in there thinking it had agency, wouldn't it?
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On 4/19/2024 at 9:10 PM, Tommy said:I was really looking for milestones. Things that would show itself when one has moved forward along this journey. That way I would know what I am doing is sort a right?? But, I think I come up short because I never have such experiences. No dramas, no insights, no feelings of energy. Only feeling lack of sleep. Finding myself staring into space. Thoughts rush in and out of which I have no control.
Are you working with a teacher, or meditating? Let's hear more about that.
From MY perspective, entirely off the top of my head, and with a 101 degree fever (so possibly missing some things):
Your first insight might be the realization of just how unbearably noisy your mind is outside of meditation practice.
If you are meditating at least 20 minutes a day or hopefully more, you will find that you become less reactive, more calm, and develop a "pause" before emotional outbursts that enables you to wait through the wave of emotion and respond in a more relaxed and kind manner. This would be one of the earlier hallmarks of a dedicated practitioner.
You might have "pointing out' instruction from a teacher and now be able to recognize "emptiness" with some effort. In daily life you will begin to learn to see it in your meditation practice, and attempt allowing this to well up in during your day.
Eventually you start to have "access concentration", a stableness and abiding in your meditation practice that allows using your practice for inquiry.
There are a lot more things like this, but usually I just see it come up in a student as they develop.
If you don't, but CAN have an in-person teacher, I would highly suggest it.
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17 hours ago, Neirong said:You can reach a level where stillness becomes permanent. Then, it won't matter if you sit, stand, or walk, and it won't require any specific physical action to work.
Absolutely. This is my experience.
17 hours ago, Neirong said:The reason people require extended sitting in stillness is that they have too much crap floating around in their mental bodies, and they have to wait till all the residue falls down so they regain some clarity. (Think of a cup of tea with leaves).
I agree, in terms of "requiring" sitting. Despite having an everyday experience of formlessness to a particular degree, I sit because there are deeper levels of formlessness available there... and I just love sitting, it is enjoyably effortless.
17 hours ago, Neirong said:Then, when they leave their "closed 168-hr sitting retreat," they quickly return to their usual state of mind.
Commonly, yes. I think of the mind as like a willow branch. You may bend the branch over and over to train it into a shape, like a chair, but at first it just bends back. Eventually, however, it increasingly stays where it is bent, until at some point it doesn't bend back. So it is with meditation.
17 hours ago, Neirong said:That is incorrect. If you lift weights till your muscles give up, they will start growing and developing from the stimulus, if you lift balloons, nothing will ever happen.
From the perspective of enlightened mind, WHO is doing the lifting? You say earlier:
QuoteThen, it won't matter if you sit, stand, or walk, and it won't require any specific physical action to work.
Meditation changes the mind, but what ACTUALLY precipitates awakening (if there IS anything) is unknown. If we DID know what it was we could skip meditation and just cut to the chase... but you can't. The best you can do, IMHO, is be "accident prone" as Suzuki suggests.
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19 hours ago, snowymountains said:Well it resonates with those whose ideas align with the absolute, aka agree with this theology.
What is important is that it resonates with the "awakened", or those with "no-self"/arhats. These absolute teachings are the best attempts at conceptual explanation available from perspective of enlightened mind.
19 hours ago, snowymountains said:Indeed a conceptual framework can't exactly describe an altered state of consciousness, actually it can't always exactly describe everything in the "common" state of consciousness.
Agreed. The language/belief system of science has the same problem, despite its ability to predictively model reality where the variables are limited. I would, of course, say that this is because the "common" experience of consciousness is not different from the "enlightened" experience EXCEPT for the perceptual overlay of distortion in between it and experiencing.
19 hours ago, snowymountains said:But this doesn't mean anything, what's done here is simply pack everything but the ASC/nirvana into relative and when found faulty say it's relative and you get a self-coherent theology that can always excuse the doctrines found to be wrong or incomplete.
I'm not sure I follow you here.
19 hours ago, snowymountains said:So in that sense all that matters is the aluded ASC, but the tools to get there are not complete, and so the tools are called relative teachings pointing to the absolute.
What is labelled "relative" are the teachings that point to symbolic ideas about a subject/object world... but even those lead to absolute teachings. While some teaching may be intended to lead to "altered states" analogous to enlightenment (the jhanas for example) the overall intention points to nirvana which is NOT an altered "state" (something temporary) but a permanent shift in understanding that doesn't fade or change. It is reality, as it is, over years upon years and, as far as I can tell, the variety of human experience including: extreme pain, sleep, emotions, intoxication, etc., etc.
19 hours ago, snowymountains said:Isn't it simpler to just say the tools there are not complete to remove conditioning? 🙂
The toolset is simple: bring conditioning into consciousness when the mind is quiet and empty and allow that thought to pass are you would any other thought. This has been used for thousands of years. For some without deep trauma and attachment to their distorted views, this would be enough. Others might need some help from an intelligent, experienced psychological professional such as yourself.
Some might clear enough of their conditioning to awaken. Awakening, and the eventual dropping away of "self" permanently change our relationship to our conditioning. At this point conditioning becomes MUCH easier to drop, due to the shift in perspective. From the moment of "awakening" (satori in Zen) the "self" is like a fan that has had its plug pulled. Things experienced as "self" are generally seen for what they are and drop away. The old patterns arise in experience of their own accord and drop away when brought into the stillness of enlightened mind. The "tool" at this point is effortless, and just an automatic part of experience.
Seeing reality as it is definitely completely removes conditioning, in my experience.
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20 hours ago, Nintendao said:It was neat to hear him speak about direct transmission from a qigong perspective. Beyond the obvious benefits of in-person learning, there always seems to be this extra level of "stuff," depending on the teacher. Even given a strictly pragmatic explanation of somatic empathy, there really is a lot of potential in purely sitting and experiencing.
I would call this "pointing out" (from the Tibetan Buddhist traditions). I'm not sure how it is talked about in your video, but in my practice it is a demonstration of what "emptiness" is, and some instruction on how to find it. I probably end up doing something along these lines every few meetings with a student. Once a student sees and NON-CONCEPTUALLY understands "emptiness" they can learn to allow it to well-up in their experience with greater and greater degrees of success and confidence.
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17 minutes ago, snowymountains said:Yes, but I don't agree with it, it takes a very maximalistic point of view.
The teachings on the absolute are "maximalist" because the nature of reality is uncompromising. It can't be bent to encompass conceptual frameworks that we cherish.
Intellectually, I completely get how the absolute can create cognitive dissonance, but it truly is the reality of things. Once seen and understood, there is no way understand the world in the way it was before... not that this is a burden... it is a great joy.
The relative teachings, which include the realms, rebirth, etc. are not ultimately real, though as real as anything else you think is "real". Nirvana IS real, but is not some other place or thing other than what is happening in this moment. It is always right here.
The relative teachings are where "religious" ideas live in the Buddhist teachings. The relative teachings are skillful means, where ability to work with the absolute teachings is still in development. The teachings on impermanence, and especially dependent origination are the bridge to the absolute teachings. The relative actually is ALWAYS pointing at the absolute.
The absolute teachings (and the relative teachings couching absolute teachings) are not at all religious, once fully understood.
Coming full circle: The meditation practice (in Zen/Mahamudra/Dgozchen) is, from the beginning, an absolute practice that cultivates insight into the non-dual nature of reality. The absolute isn't going to resonate with ANYONE'S ideas about how reality is.
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29 minutes ago, snowymountains said:All branches are religious, some ( most ) branches advocate a non- theistic religion, but it is a religion.
It does deal with cosmology, how the universe is created, destroyed and then created again , the 6 planes or more granularly 31 planes etc. There's a lot of cosmology in the Pali Suttas.
In Zen too references to the 6 realms are common ( hell, hungry ghosts, animals, us, demigods, devas).
The whole notion of rebirth is a religious notion as well, and so is Nirvana, it's cessation of thought in order to stop the cycle of rebirths and suffering.
Are you familiar with the Two Truths Doctrine?
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20 minutes ago, Nintendao said:For schools that emphasize just sitting, do they generally practice in groups, or is sitting in solitude considered equally effective?
My group sits for 15 minutes at the beginning of our sangha meetings, but it isn't terribly relevant in the scheme of things. I encourage students to sit for at least 20 minutes a day, but hopefully more like 40 minutes at least once, or even twice a day. Sitting at least 40 minutes a day, with regular teacher check-ins is optimal, in my opinion.
20 minutes ago, Nintendao said:What about sitting out amongst nature?
Sitting in nature, or walking when one is able to have a fairly quiet mind is VERY beneficial. I walk for an hour most days, and it is very productive.
20 minutes ago, Nintendao said:The power of koan to knock the mind offline might be intended as an anesthetic. Less useful in and of itself unless the doctor is there and ready to operate.
The Rinzai Zen school like to use koan study, but I have never bonded with it. The idea of backing the mind into a corner is in many traditions, including Advaita and Sufism, so I think must work for some percentage of practitioners.
20 minutes ago, Nintendao said:This thought occurred to me when listening to the following video. While Damo will be the first to deny he is any kind of enlightened, he do be emitting some light.
I don't know anything about Mr. Mitchell.
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8 hours ago, snowymountains said:Buddhism hasn't figured it out either, it just makes claims on an axiomatic basis. It's a religion.
Which Buddhism do you mean? Some branches are religious and some aren't. Is resting in nirodha/cessation where the mind is still and quiescent religious?
It isn't Buddhism that understands or explains thoughts, or mind, or the world, it is enlightenment. Buddhism is simply a vehicle to a destination. Once there is arriving, it doesn't retain the same importance. It is direct experience that is valued, not axioms. The knowledge we are looking for is never merely conceptual.
It is ultimately unimportant if a conceptual construct around where thoughts come from exists. Complete understanding of the nature of reality makes such a questions nonsense, where the time, space, and self are seen through as illusions. This is the reason that Buddhism doesn't generally attempt to answer questions of cosmology. It is an experiential understanding, not some kind of denial or reformation of ones views that precipitates this.
8 hours ago, snowymountains said:Re the unconscious, never said it's the source of thoughts, can't understand it either tbh.
Definitely agreed. It is mysterious. Thoughts seem to come out of nowhere, and disappear. This is the true of all phenomena, including self, moment to moment. The world is a pulsing fountain of things arising and disappearing, moment to moment.
Reminds me of:
QuoteHappiness cannot be found through great effort and willpower, but is already here, perfect and complete, in relaxation and letting go.
Don’t worry, there is nothing to do. Whatever arises in the mind has no importance, because it has no reality.
Do not hold on to it. Do not judge.
Let the play happen by itself, arising and passing, without changing anything – everything dissolves and begins anew, without end.Only your search for happiness prevents you from seeing it, like a rainbow that you chase without ever catching it.
Although happiness does not exist, it has always been there and accompanies you in every moment.
Do not believe that good or bad experiences have reality. They are like rainbows. Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain.
As soon as you relax this grasping, there is space – open, inviting and joyful. Make use of it. Everything is already yours.
Do not search further. Do not enter the impenetrable jungle to search for the elephant that is already quietly at home.
Nothing to do, nothing to force, nothing to want, and everything happens by itself.
– Lama Gendun Rinpoche
8 hours ago, snowymountains said:There is much more experiental insight in psychological methods than Buddhist ones btw.
Which Buddhism? There is abundantly more insight in resting the mind in it's own nature than in either Buddhism OR psychology.
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5 minutes ago, Tommy said:I wish I could say i can rest as awareness and let all else arise and fall away.
No need to wish! Sitting in open awareness and allowing the mind to become still is all that is required. Most people can begin to have glimpses of resting in awareness in a week or so, all it takes is your sincere wish to end suffering, or understand the nature of mind.
This is a nice primer on what you are trying to accomplish and how to start by a lovely, lovely being:
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-meditate-dzogchen-ponlop-rinpoche-on-mahamudra/
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I've chatted with Soh a number of times and am satisfied that he knows what he is talking about. There aren't REALLY stages of awakening, so consider these an aid rather than a references. There are MANY maps of the enlightened territory, from the Four Stage map, the Bhumis, the Oxherding pictures, ad nauseum, and all of them seem to have useful aspects to them.
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25 minutes ago, Neirong said:If you have already attained it all, why would you bother sitting? If you have not attained it and have kept sitting still for decades, maybe the practice is not working.
It's NICE to sit! You won't get far in most spirituality without sitting. Meditation is even a feature of magick practice. Getting all of your fixed ideas about yourself and the world out of the way opens up the space for shifts in understanding to occur.
Sitting in meditation after insight into the nature of mind deepens the experience of it and helps the continual further dissolution of dualities and ancient twisted karma.
No practice "works". A person who thinks that they can "enlighten" themselves is deluded. There are no enlightened "selves".
Quote“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” - Shuryu Suzuki Roshi
25 minutes ago, Neirong said:The idea of oversimplifying the cultivation path to a single attainment and a single easily understood practice that anyone can do is extremely appealing, but how is it really different from procrastination?
We are in the Buddhism subforum, so I'm speaking specifically of Buddhism, here.
The Zen path and Dzogchen path, which have been my primary vehicles, can be expressed this way. Most Buddhism eschews striving, as well as clinging or aversion, leaving "enlightenment projects" to other disciplines in recognition that it really isn't UP to "you".
Procrastination? What is it that you think needs to be done?
25 minutes ago, Neirong said:You found yourself or your "True Self," what next?
Deepening insight. Enjoying being-ness. Flying to other planets and visiting space beings. The siddhis are interesting.
(just kidding about the space beings)
25 minutes ago, Neirong said:If that is all you seek from meditation practice, are not your goal posts too low?
I used to meditate because I was a happier, calmer, less reactive person when I did. I initially became a dedicated meditator after 2 weeks of practice changed my life.
At this point I'm fresh out of goals or posts, or anyone to have any.
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1 hour ago, snowymountains said:I think that's the most fundamental difference, that self is not a delusion.
Having automatic reactions, automatic chains of thoughts etc, doesn't imply we don't have a self.
Where do thoughts come from then? Science hasn't figured it out, though they have managed to find correlative brain function. I'm guessing you'll say, "the unconscious", which seems to me to be merely a convenient MacGuffin that stands in for "I don't know". The question: "Where is the "unconscious" travels down a path just a mystical as any attempt to triangulate the location of "self". You might as well try to point to your "human rights".
The origin of thoughts is just one thing to look at, but a powerful one. The insight you are looking for, however, isn't some satisfying logical conclusion, but an experiential insight.
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2 hours ago, Neirong said:People get obsessed with actions and practices, but it is who is doing the practice that matters the most.
If you just sit and have a strong energy flow/accumulation and deep mental attainments, it won't be the same as a newcomer who has nothing doing the very same practice. That is also why some of the practices have to be adjusted to the level of a practitioner and not be blindly taken.
There are proper paths of development which unlock internal potential and train your abilities, and you won't get it all with "just sitting."
I tend to think some people procrastinate for hours sitting still and believe they are cultivating. I have seen people who measure meditation attainments by hours spent in meditation, and it is far from an adequate measurement.People who sit for hours are training their minds to recognize and rest in enlightened mind. This, and perhaps bodhicitta (loving kindness/compassion) are what we are generally cultivating.
Most important factors for reduction of suffering and true insight can be found in "just sitting". Just sitting isn't actually any different than resting in enlightened mind, though you need insight to see it. Of the "Four Noble Truths" the third, cessation of suffering (Nirodha), is no different than the still mind when "just sitting".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
The "Noble Eightfold Path" is aspirational, and in't something that can be accomplished without enlightenment EXCEPT to some degree by a mind well-trained in resting in it's own "nature". That training in Zen is called "just sitting".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
It took about 25 years to gain permanent non-dual insight. The only adequate measurements I know of are if there is complete insight, and kindness.
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2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:in general when the modern mystics try to share, they undermine it by not providing definitions and by not providing concrete examples. While the intent is commendable, the message is fuzzy. If you want us to understand what you write you should explain that in your mind a thing is not an object. because it is kinda clashes with a dictionary. Then, pls provide an example.
like here. i am very interested in what @stirling says but i have to ask him for an example 'how the emptiness feels like, what do you see?' otherwise i dont know what he is trying to say.
Modern AND traditional mystics have a hard time explaining the "appearance" (or any other qualities, for that matter) of "emptiness" because it doesn't have any that can be truly be defined as "characteristics". You can try: it is still (while still in motion), color saturated, silent (while there is still sound), timeless, spaceless, without subject/object relationships or a "self" present that observes. These will sound like nonsense to most people.
The only "concrete" example that can be had is your own experience. Very few if any are going to read about it and suddenly get it.
Demonstrating what emptiness is really requires and in-person meeting and "pointing out". Once seen, some supposedly will get it and become "awakened" immediately, but most will either sort of get what you are pointing at and be underwhelmed, or surprised or in disbelief at how simple it is. Unless seen at its full depth it doesn't truly impress without putting the time and work into learning to rest in it during meditation and being able to watch as it transforms experience.
QuoteFour Faults of Natural Awareness
So close you can’t see it.
So deep you can’t fathom it.
So simple you can’t believe it.
So good you can’t accept it.– Kalu Rinpoche
1. The nature of mind is just too close to be recognized. Just as we are unable to see our own face, mind finds it difficult to look into its own nature.
2. It is too profound for us to fathom. We have no idea how deep it could be; if we did, we would have already, to a certain extent, realized it.3. It is too easy for us to believe. In reality, all we need do is simply to rest in the naked, pure awareness of the nature of mind, which is always present.
4. It is too wonderful for us to accommodate. The sheer immensity of it is too vast to fit into our narrow way of thinking. We just can't believe it. Nor can we possibly imagine that enlightenment is the real nature of our minds.
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4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:Except that, seen from enlightened mind, "all dharmas are marked by emptiness", a perspective unavailable to unenlightened mind. The one pervasive, permanent and unchanging quality of all things is this "emptiness" and it is impossible not to see in all relative appearances once seen.
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8 hours ago, snowymountains said:Also for the ones it brings to the surface, then there's no proper toolset on what to do with them.
And here.
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8 hours ago, snowymountains said:The thing is that it opens space to some of the unconscious objects ( not all, there's a lot it won't ) but bringing them to consciousness is only one of the steps, and for the rest of the steps the approaches are very incomplete.
The lenses we are using are different. I agree that is important not to confuse them. There are some events that aren't likely to generate insight in a novice student, which is why every good dharma teacher has a list of counselors and psychiatrists for referring such cases.
8 hours ago, snowymountains said:Cognitive methods like the second arrow may be good in some cases, some people would even say in a lot of cases, in other cases not so much. Cognitive methods also do not solve everything and also they're not the right tool for all people.
Agreed. Different people will require different modalities.
8 hours ago, snowymountains said:But even within the scope of self-improvement (forget e.g. trauma) there is important stuff missing there.
Buddhism isn't about self-improvement, it is about seeing through the delusion of the self.
8 hours ago, snowymountains said:So it's about distinguishing if some practices are good practices and whether their scope and effectiveness is oversold.
They are good practices, I'd even say for some people they're very good, but they also have a more limited scope than advertised.
We will have to agree to disagree here.
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2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:Scott Kiloby mentioned in one of his talks that the reason people fail to recognize the nature of mind is due to trauma which fires automatic reactions that cloud the system.
Exactly. Untangling our ancient twisted karma is at least half of what Buddhist practice is about.
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7 hours ago, snowymountains said:Shikantaza can't go as deep, it cannot and will not touch automatic reactions nor go deep into the unconscious, it simply lacks the tools for accessing these, nevermind working on them. Only therapy can do that.
Actually meditation practice is one of the most common means of avoidance for doing the deep work.
Shikantaza is a very good practice, I do it myself, but it should not be advertised for doing things it can't.
Shikantaza isn't intended as a tool for working with sankharas/obscurations/mental problems. It merely opens up the space to process them. Our attachments, aversions, personal stories and beliefs arise naturally moment to moment and don't need encouragement, they just require our attention, and non-grasping. Even small day-to-day events often link us to much deeper traumas; pulling at these threads begins to unravel them. Meditation done to avoid thoughts and feelings will fail. If anything, meditation makes the onslaught of our difficult thoughts and feelings worse, though you might get lucky if your only sit for 15 or 20 minutes a day, which isn't really enough for profound transformation.
As you are probably aware, the buddha didn't practice because it made him more effective at work.
The Four Noble Truths make a bold claim: That there is a way to end suffering. Those who practice diligently begin to see reductions in suffering in weeks. The suffering in question is the "second arrow", or mental story of suffering that is experienced - the specific thing Buddhist practice intends to treat.
Quote"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. - Buddha, Sallatha Sutta: The Arrow
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html
Does Buddhism do what it says on the tin? This is for sincere, dedicated practitioners who have finally had enough of suffering or wish to understand the true nature of "mind".
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15 hours ago, Tommy said:Doesn't Shikantaza carry with it some caveats? Such as without the crutch of watching breath, the mind can wander more easily? That over time, the attention is easily lost in the midst of ideas and thoughts that arises while sitting with no focus? IDK. It is not an easy practice for me. Probably some will find it as good a method as any? Still, there are plenty of methods available. Guess it depends upon the person?
Students are often taught to recognize the "nature of mind" and then see if they can naturally rest in it as a meditation right off the bat. If you can't, you'll be taught something like watching the breath, which you would do UNTIL you notice that sometimes the crutch of the meditation "method" drops away, and that there are moments at a time of quiet awareness appearing. From then on, most students are taught to notice the quiet awareness and see if they can notice and then rest in it. Success depends on the acuity and dedication of the student.
The most direct path is this dropping the method and just resting in the "natural state" of open awareness, from a Dzogchen/Zen perspective.
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2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:Returning to your question, Vajra Fist, which I think is an excellent one--I would contend that what Gautama described as the "fourth musing" is shikantaza. Gautama often described four "musings" followed by "the survey-sign" of the concentration, a kind of overview of the body that followed the fourth musing. My impression is that he could use the survey-sign to recall the fourth musing as circumstances dictated.
And I would contend that a person who becomes adept at returning to the first musing, and at recalling the fourth musing in a natural rhythm of mindfulness that takes place in the first musing, is generally considered enlightened.
That's not the attainment that marked Gautama's enlightenment, however. That was Gautama's way of living. Gautama's enlightenment involved the further deliverances, four concentrations and the final cessation of "doing something" in actions of feeling and perceiving, the actions of the mind.The fourth "musing" refers to fourth jhana, which is where mind becomes still. This is the gateway to emptiness. While this is where shikantaza begins, it extends easily into formlessness (jhanas 5 - 8), and in most sits will pass back and forth over these territories.
Any enlightened "being" can allow the mind to become entirely still at any time. The jhanas are valuable because an unenlightened practitioner can get a taste of what formless mind (in various progressively deeper flavors) is like in their meditation practice and become familiar with them TO A DEGREE. The enlightened mind is predisposed to naturally be present in the formless, at one depth or another, at all times.
Guatama (and all other countless enlightened beings) would naturally experience "non-meditation" after 4th path (no-self) where the mind is always formless and requires no effort to be as it naturally is.
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On 4/13/2024 at 3:32 PM, snowymountains said:Two words of caution, it won't go as deep as unconscious processes and if you do open awareness practices only while sitting at the dojo, you won't see a lot of processes because a lot of triggers are simply not there while "just sitting" at a dojo, they're out there in real life during your everyday interactions with your environment.
Whether you want to deal with them or not, meditation WILL absolutely dig up ALL of your unprocessed mental garbage. The spaciousness of "open awareness" meditation practices such as shikantaza create space for them to come up. If you go on retreat you are guaranteed to see at least ONE person suddenly burst into tears on the meditation cushion for this reason. These stories are actually the fodder for insight. In Buddhism we call them "samskaras" or "shankaras".
Samskaras are mental imprints you carry around with you that are "unfinished business". In Buddhism it isn't necessary to have them make sense, or understand the underlying story of them that you have told yourself, but rather to allow them to come up in consciousness, and leave consciousness (arise and pass away) without telling their story over and over again. Some people will need both counseling AND this approach to process the most difficult amongst them. The intention isn't to deny them, but rather to have them become possible to experience without mental residue in the body/mind (namarupa).
Samskaras are "obsurations", like dirt on a lense, to seeing the reality of how things are. They are stories we tell ourselves about how things really are that are biased and limited, and get in the way. The more of them we are able to clear, the more likely we are to have the "accident" of suddenly seeing through them entirely and deeply into the duality of reality.
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On 4/13/2024 at 2:43 PM, Vajra Fist said:Soto teachers say this enlightened mind is already present, and by sitting in this way it naturally emerges.
Soto teachers say that there is no enlightenment to seek. They say so because they see seeking after enlightenment as a desire, which itself becomes an impediment to enlightenment.
Whereas Rinzai teachers say that this de-emphasis of the importance of kensho could be a reflection that few if any people attain kensho through this method.
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So what I'm asking is, where do you sit on this? Is shikantaza only something that should be practiced when you're close to kensho, or have already experienced kensho. Or is it a viable path to enlightenment even for beginners?
Soto Zen teacher in the Shuryu Suzuki lineage here. Sorry if sharing this annoys anybody.
I have practiced since 1990 in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, and for the last 7 years in the Soto Zen tradition. Shikantaza is the same as Dzogchen - resting in enlightened mind. It is sitting without any crutch of a technique, allowing enlightened mind to be as it is, and is therefore the SAME as enlightened mind, only in most people there is no insight into its nature. The Rinzai teachers I am friends with would agree with this summation, only they would simply use the term "zazen" to refer to their meditation. Shikantaza, to me is a more specific and detailed assessment of what it means.
I started sitting in Dzogchen at the age of 23 and it has been my primary practice until now. I was introduced to the non-dual "nature of mind"/beginner's mind/buddha nature at that time, and became increasingly better at this meditation until it "stuck", and a moment of complete non-dual insight opened everything up almost 10 years ago. Since that point, it has become a permanent perspective, supplanting the previous frame of duality permanently. Now mind is ALWAYS in shikantaza/dzogchen. IF you can practice by resting the mind in it's enlightened (actual) nature, I would do so as often as I possibly could knowing what I do now. It IS a very direct path to enlightenment for those that are able to see the non-dual nature, and have some faith in what it is.
ALL of my 7 or so teachers (and their teachers) sat this way and realized the nature of things. It requires giving up on results, and the belief in agency, and requires a faith in the practice that comes from seeing that even BEFORE awakening it is transformative.
Feel free to message me if you have any questions.
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Is 'just sitting' a post-enlightment practice?
in Buddhist Discussion
Posted
You are meditating for therapy, but it is ineffective? If you don't want a teacher, I would suggest trying Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart".
If you become adept at watching your thoughts, feelings and sensations you get to the point where any of them can arise in consciousness and dissolve without triggering an associated dialog. Worth learning to do.
I agree with all of that, EXCEPT that anyone who sits will notice that their baggage comes up. It is part of why you meditate, and happens there, but also in your daily life. People often have deep trauma come up on long retreats, for a good reason. Most meditation centers will suggest retreat attendees think carefully about their psychological history before committing to retreats for this reason.
If the the "Unus Mundus" is being conflated with the Tao, then I would disagree. Possibly there is a larger discussion of "self" that could be had to clarify this point. Couple of pints in a local pub?
Certainly where there is illumination to what the "self" actually IS, interference slowly comes to a halt.