Old Student

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

lower dantian is a ball framed by diaphragm on top, navel and spine back and front, and pubis bones on below.

That's all of my abdomen.

 

34 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

yes Ian Stewart is a quantum chaos mathematician. I call Strogatz a quantum chaos math professor, by default, since quantum physics has been the foundation of science since the early 1900s.

I usually think of Strogatz as a wavelets guy, with an incredible ability to teach.

Ian Stewart writes in his book on God playing dice,

Quote

There is some interest among physicists in what they call 'quantum chaos', but quantum chaos is about the relation between non-chaotic quantum systems and chaotic classical approximations -- not chaos as a mechanism for quantum indeterminacy. Quantum chaos is not what this chapter is about: the central thrust of this chapter is the possibility of changing the theoretical framework of quantum mechanics althogether, replacing quantum uncertainty by deterministic chaos, as Einstein would have liked.

 

He sounds like he wants to replace quantum randomness with little chaotic random number generators.

The other reference I found of his to quantum and chaos is his picture on his site of the "quantum chaos butterfly", by which he means a joking reference to Ed Lorenz's butterfly effect, and he goes on to assert that chaos is just shifting irrational numbers, and that it's really only good for making pretty tee shirts.  Do I have the right guy?

 

43 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

So Strogatz emphasizes, for example, that a fractal broccoli is actually not a real fractal and therefore not really chaotic. A chaotic system depends on logistic symmetric math logic whereas quantum physics is inherently asymmetric or noncommutative.

 

Fractal broccoli is not a real fractal because its self-similar pattern doesn't continue to arbitrarily small length scales.  As someone once pointed out, we model fluids with continuous mathematics, but if you subdivide a cup of coffee far enough you divide a coffee molecule and the two parts aren't coffee anymore.  Fact of life.

AFAIK, there is nothing that prohibits chaos in noncommutative systems, not sure what you mean by "inherently" asymmetric. That AB never equals BA for all A and B?

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

So whether something is nonlinear or linear is not the real issue. Reality is noncommutative phase, as math professor Alain Connes has pointed out - this goes against all the symmetric math thus far, that even most quantum physics relies on.

 

Connes defines his noncommutative geometry as a superset of Riemannian geometry not as a substitute.  He also says that Riemannian geometry is completely suitable for large scales, e.g. planetary motion, etc.  I haven't read his stuff, but thanks for the reference.  It seems like something that grew out of C*-algebras, which I vaguely remember from school.

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

chaos is about time while fractals are about space

 

I suppose, in a manner of speaking. The fractals in chaos are in state space, so they are behaviors in time.

 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

There is a structural deterministic drive to science, inherent in the symmetric mathematical logic.

 

No, the deterministic drive is inherent in the application of logical steps to prove things, and the difficulty humans have with believing their world has a random substrate when they can rarely see the evidence of it.

 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

So if you think Western science can "save" ecology from abrupt global warming - and that the supercomputers really "care" about the future of life on Earth - I do not agree.

 

I'm not certain anything can save ecology from global warming, it's already being affected, and we have done very little to reverse the actions which are causing global warming.  There will be massive damage done to the current ecology whether or not the human species reforms itself, that part is already baked in (no pun intended). Supercomputers are just big computers, they can crunch billions of data points and render them in a display.  It's the person observing the display with intuition and training that cares about the future of life on Earth.

 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

Chaos science is based on a Platonic ideal that does not exist in Nature.

 

Chaos science is based on the existence and ubiquity of chaotic dynamical systems, coupled with the fact that the equations we believe are good models for physics display that behavior for some values of the parameters.  The models need not continue to fit reality at all length scales and at all times, prediction in the presence of chaos is, as you pointed out, not possible when the the time frame you wish to predict exceeds your ability to measure or model the system.  Ed Lorenz gave the example of the butterfly flapping its wings over the Philippines and causing a hurricane in the Caribbean because he as trying to make the concept of sensitive dependence accessible.  One of his later papers actually said we should be able to predict the weather about twice as far out on the data collected, but predicted we'd never be able to predict it a month out.

 

Chaos theory also pretty much predicts that a conflict with too many players in it can only be ended by playing whack-a-mole with a goal, too.  It isn't totally impractical.

 

OldDog quoted Lin Yutang contrasting mathematical and intuitive thinking in a beautiful post Monday.  I don't think there is such a contrast, with all due respect to both OldDog and Lin Yutang. Mathematical thinking can rival the most complex tantric visualizations, and sits "in the silence of one's own mind" waiting for the insights which allow them to turn and reveal their meaning.

 

I first heard about global warming from the NASA Goddard people in the 1980s.  There have always been debates over what it will cause.  There have never been debates over whether it is happening, not since the first analysis of the insurance data by NASA and the NSF people.  All the data collected since solidifies that. But odds on probability plus some basic ecological theory says that what it causes will on balance not be good for this or many other species.

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I am sure someone can, if you tell that someone what it is.

1) 下丹田 lower cinnabar field

2) The place to which I sink my qi when doing a neijia form

3) The place in which jing is raised to purify it and create qi

4) The place to which I'm supposed to rest my awareness during (3)

5) The place which is supposed to concentrate to a ball and grow hot when doing (3) and (4)

Or if (2) and (3),(4), and (5) are not the same place then (5) which is also (3) and (4). If all these are not the same, then I would appreciate knowing about that, too, I guess.

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Actually - that's not strictly true

To quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "What? Which part?"

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Your heart is open and energy is flowing.  It is time to start noticing the separate channels of transmission and reception. Some traditions would call that male and female energy sides. Start connecting to others so that you can begin to feel/sense the difference, and let go of your belly.

You mean like left and right chong mai/left and right nadi? Or separating male and female energy?

On 5/7/2019 at 7:56 AM, voidisyinyang said:

Math professor of quantum chaos - Steve Strogatz - he has stated that science now is inherently "authoritarian" because of our dependence on the supercomputer iterations to make our predictions. I have corresponded with Professor Strogatz.

 

Not surprised that Steve Strogatz said that, but it doesn't make supercomputer predictions necessarily the wrong thing to do, they are the only way to incorporate the data in a viable model to make it possible to do the prediction work that actually does incorporate the math.

 

On 5/7/2019 at 7:56 AM, voidisyinyang said:

OK let's go back to our asteroid/Comet analogy. It's happened before right - but science can not predict exactly when - due to the inherent quantum chaos dynamics involved. It's nonlinear resonance and so only the "iterations" can make the prediction. Small changes in initial conditions can have great resonance changes in the outcome.

 

Both in this and the previous that I quoted, you refer to "quantum chaos".  On the first quote, you call Strogatz a "Math professor of quantum chaos".  He has no published work on quantum chaos, just on chaos.  In this quote you talk about "quantum chaos" as part of the inherent dynamics for changes in resonances for planetary motion.  What is "quantum" with respect to these n-body resonances?

 

Nonlinear resonance does not imply sensitivity to initial conditions, necessarily.  Nonlinearity is a precondition for chaos, but it isn't in and of itself chaos.  It is chaos -- sensitivity to initial conditions across all points in a compact region or on an attractor -- that causes the unpredictability.  The system is still deterministic, it is still predictable given precise enough information, but the precision required goes up exponentially with time.  That is deterministic chaos, like planetary motion (e.g. moons versus rings on Saturn). Quantum chaos would be chaos that was inherently governed by quantum mechanics, which are not deterministic.

 

Chaos in climate systems related to global heating is best observed by looking at tipping points.  I'm using global heating because it is more accurate than global warming, and I've been noticing people are skeptical about it here (which is sad).

Here's a special issue of PNAS that collects articles about them.

 

Sorry to jump in, but I see this and numerous other references to chaos and sensitivity to initial conditions, and I have some formal background in these things.

I really appreciate you spending this time on this with me, it is very helpful.  On sinking my qi to my belly, I've been doing that as a matter of practice for liuhebafa for a very long time.  It's possible it may have refined to a point about 15 years ago, it wasn't what I was focused on.  Is the combination of me doing these neidan exercises plus sinking my qi going to be different than sinking my qi in another context?  I will take your suggestion, but if you know the answer to that, I would appreciate hearing it.

 

In terms of the original post, the reason I had asked about the sacrum is because for the sacrum, I can actually "set that ablaze", very specifically.  In the Nei Jing Tu, the dantian is back against the back (or at least the words, Correct Dantian (成丹天) are there).

55 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes it is below the navel, and above the waist 

I just tried this (not worrying if it was or wasn't above the waist).  It produced some tummo-like heat all over my body, a little twitching (not sure of the location), but no heat at the new location. Of course, it's only one try so far.  When I sink my pulse, it goes to the same place, not the new place.

Mine are within a centimeter of the same height.

Just now, dwai said:

Did they say “waist” or navel? I’ve never heard of anyone Say “waist”. 

Navel.

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

Who said it is below the waist?

All of my taijiquan and liuhebafa teachers either specified it was some number of fingers below the waist and some in, or specified that it was in "your lower belly." I have perceived it there as a large ball, but not as a small place that grew very warm.  So I assumed it was some place within that area.

If the mingmen is at the bottom of the kidneys, and the qihai is just under the navel, how does that not come out above the waist?  This is kind of what I've been struggling to understand.

There are a lot of pictures, in books, online, in charts and diagrams, that show where the dantian (or lower dantian) is located.  Almost all of them are side views, almost all of them show no bones, or show them so symbolically as to not really allow identification.  I'm hoping someone can definitively help with where the lower dantian is.

 

Most verbal descriptions say, 3 fingers below the navel and 3 fingers inside, with the number of fingers for each varying, and some people actually using thumbs instead.  The navel is roughly at the illiac crest, which is the bone pictured at the front of the top of the pelvis in the following picture, so the vertical location on this picture seems like it is correct.  It would say the dantian is in front of the sacrum (picture from seeds of longevity):

 

Quite a few pictures lead to a conclusion more like the one below, however, which shows the dantian below the navel, but also above the sacrum?

 

 

The following picture is one I've seen quite a lot (this and the previous are from this site which has a ton of pictures including the top one).  It does the triangulation more carefully, but it's unclear in the diagram on which it is superimposed what we are looking at for spine, but does seem to be again in front of the sacrum.

 

I've seen diagrams with female torsos, and it seems to be put in the "womb space", which seems lower.

 

I am also reading Damo Mitchell's White Moon on the Mountain Peak, which says that the dantian is vertically aligned with the baihui and the huiyin, which puts it far back, but also on a line between the mingmen and the qihai, which seems like it would be almost above the navel.

 

I have always "left it indistinct" when doing my exercises, it has been sufficient that it was below the navel and inside, but that place only warms for me, it never gets hot, and multiple sources talk about the dantian getting hot when fed energy.  I did his correcting exercise, moving up the line from the huiyin, and I did another person's exercise, using warm hands and moving slowly inward, Mitchell's put it against my sacrum, the other put it a little forward from there.  I got my indications of these by feeling for the bones, and somewhat by comparing to the iliac crests, which are easy to find.

 

For background and disclosure, I am trying to complete Mitchell's and some other's visualizations/meditations.  I can't penetrate that area with visualizations for some reason, when I do a Tibetan style visualization of the nadi it fades in that area, when I do more Daoist visualizations the area responds but I can never seem to see it.  So I'm looking for a more concentrated location point than what I've visualized in the past and want to know how to "narrow it down".

 

 

12 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Here are videos of him doing his form and demonstrating some fajin.

Thanks, I hadn't seen the first video before, it has some expressions I had to learn on my own, glad to see them there.

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is wrong reading 骨勁=bone strength

"bone strength accumulates inside"

I accept your correction with regards to parts of speech, in which case it is actually "bone energy". In which case it is definitely pronounced jing.  勁 is prononced jing when it means energy (which is what it means), and jin when it is used as a substitute for 劤 meaning force. Thank you, that clarifies things.

 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

No, it is yuan qi. Different from jing.

Thank you.

Do you have any text in which jing is stored in bone marrow? Or are there only 勁 and 純陽炁?

Thanks for that.

 

I did some leg work on this question I was asking.  The second  of the 8 methods is as I cited to Earl Grey.

 

23 hours ago, Old Student said:

The 2nd of the 8 methods is 骨 (bones).  The description is, 骨勁内斂。So I beg to differ.  It explicitly says "The jin is accumulated in the bones."

 

The reason I had mentioned that there might be confusion between the two terms is that 勁 really is often pronounced jing -- actually it is listed that way in Matthews (not to get too down in the weeds on translation, Matthews for people who are unfamiliar is the dictionary when working with classical Chinese, even though it's Wade-Giles transliteration is now somewhat arcane).

 

But having done some work, now I see that this is not how both Jin and Jing (勁 , 精）end up with texts saying they are stored in the marrow.  Because we have the method above, Jin is stored (the 2nd method actually says "accumulated") in the marrow.  The Five Word Song says it is stored in making the body like a bow.  It's meaning as a character meaning energy actually derives from the energy stored in a bow so this can be both literal and metaphorical at the same time.

 

But I found the following in the Xiuzhen Tu (in the section about the Wei Lu):

故曰射九重鐡鼔乃上天之徑路也。

一名地軸神壺又名朝天嶺，一名龍虎穴，一名三叉骨。

腎内有金鼎，内外相通, 共三路上通夾脊，直透頂門，而上泥丸。

通一身之骨隨也。

(punctuation my own)

"It is said piercing the ninefold iron drum thus is the road up to upper heaven.

one is called the Shen axis pot, also called the mountain ridge facing heaven (or the ritual to heaven at the mountain ridge), one is called the dragon tiger cave, one is called the three pronged bone.

In the kidneys is a golden cauldron (ding), inside and outside are passed through, all these three roads go up through the Jia Ji, then penetrating through the Ding Men, and thus climb to the Ni wan.

[The Pure (Yuan) Qi] then goes to the bone marrow of the whole body.

 

Sorry for some rough places, but the supplied translation gets a few thing very strange.

 

So this is storage in the bone marrow which arrives there as Purest Yuan Qi (because that is what is needed to pierce the ninefold drum).  Is this Jing 精 upon storage?  Or is this yet another alchemical component stored in the bone marrow?

 

Ah. Inner teachings that cannot be revealed.  So be it.  I come from a tradition where my teacher wore a shirt and tie and was open to all.  When he died, all of sudden he went from Mr. to Master to Grand Master and his students dressed in silk clothing resembling Manchu dynastic dress, and arguments broke out within and without about lineages and lineage holders.  I was not a part of those fights, nor do I recognize many of those calling themselves master who were students of John Chung Li, I have always presumed this must be because they were at the Connecticut school, and I trained in Boston.  I respect what they do, I buy their books out of both curiosity and loyalty, but I have questions as to whether John Li intended such pretense.

 

I understand what you mean about people "who not only don't know what they are talking about, but post information that is completely wrong," but I really have practiced what I was taught for more than 40 years, I really did learn it from someone who knew the art very well, I really did go the route of learning Chinese language, painting, calligraphy, studying classical texts, and so forth. And I really did learn in an environment where there was no talk of inner teachings, secrets, or lineage and titles.  I do know what I'm talking about translating from the Five Word Song or the six combinations and eight methods texts, I really did take a whole senior level class in reading and translating Laozi and as a consequence (traditional teaching methods in China) at one time could recite it.

 

I would love to have discussions about fine points like the one I just raised in liuhebafa, I do have soft copy of the Five Word Song, but it won't work if there are new rules about lineage and title and inner rooms.  I will keep looking.

 

Thank you for your time.

I meant no offense.  And I don't know your lineage, I didn't question it, I'm quite new here.  I just want to clear up something that seems puzzling to me.  The Daoist texts are all about collecting and converting jing, the (for lack of a better word) internal boxing texts are all about storing something in the bones that is expressed when needed and makes the arms become "iron bars wrapped in cotton."  So it is a legitimate question to ask what is stored in the bones? Jin, or jing, or both?

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I speak intermediate Mandarin. 

 

Jin is from fajin, but is NOT the same as jing that you ask about that is stored in the bones.

The 2nd of the 8 methods is 骨 (bones).  The description is, 骨勁内斂。So I beg to differ.  It explicitly says "The jin is accumulated in the bones."

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

Beats me, we just practice and don't think about it after a while because the mind and too much complication affects the natural practice at a certain point. Thinking too much actually depletes jing I've once heard because of the stress it causes and it also affects flow of qi because mind intent affects direction of qi. 

Do you speak Chinese?  The reason I ask is because I studied liuhebafa with John Li, and he always told us that the jing (he spoke Cantonese or Taishan so he called it geng) sinks into the bones and is stored there.  It's also in the Five Word Song that it does.  The thing is, it's a different character from the jing that is related to fluids and gets converted to qi.  The one we heard about in liuhebafa classes is 勁 pronounced either jin or jing, the other is 精 pronounced jing, and meaning essence.

On 4/21/2019 at 3:51 AM, Earl Grey said:

Depends on the system. For example, in Flying Phoenix from Emeishan, there’s no discussion on this because it’s totally different qi, whereas in Sleeping Qigong from Huashan, qi is analagous to the money in your wallet and jing is the money in your savings account.There are common parallels but eventually one finds that they are not necessarily universal answers.

Quick question:  You said you got this analogy from a Bagua and  liuhebafa/yiquan instructors.  Was it the jing that gets converted to qi or was it the jing that is stored in the bones, in the marrow?

Hi, not sure this topic is still alive.

On 2/17/2019 at 6:56 AM, Miroku said:

There are some academic theories that Tibetan trulkhor is the source of Indian yoga and not the other way around as was assumed.

The evidence is for Hatha yoga, which kicked off what we think of as yoga nowadays, positions, kriya, etc.  Their earliest mention is in the Kalachakra texts, which date from early to mid 11th century.  Since Naropa is in the transmission line of those texts, there is a good reason to suspect that the Six Yogas of Naropa, and the corresponding Six Yogas of Niguma are near the origin point.  Naropa was at Nalanda, Niguma at Sosaling, but they were from Kashmir and some texts state they were older sister younger brother.

The jump to Hindu traditions comes with the Nath tradition after the fall of the Pala dynasty to the Hindu Senas.  The source for that latter is Bhattacharya, The History of Chittagong, which can be accessed on Scribd, but is otherwise expensive and out of print.

 

As for passage between Buddhism and Daoism, it went on beginning in the Tang dynasty.  Both were responsible for medicine in their respective cultures, and so traded information about techniques that worked. People are well aware that Daoists did medicine, but Buddhists have a tradition going back to the Pillars of Ashoka, which advertised that the Mauryan's new religion had lots of powerful medicine to be had.

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

you should not be doing those, they are useless, harmful and dangerous

I actually have some experience with that, dating back about 15 years.  I was doing what we were taught, focusing on my dantian (that would be lower dantian, below navel).  Extremely simple practice, just one pointed concentration while doing the form, doing the rooting exercises, doing standing, and sitting zen.

I got so good at it that my breathing started to stop (I'm aware of writings on various breathing techniques where this is considered desirable. This wasn't).  In medical terms it's called Cheyne-Stokes breathing, and it is a harmful dysautonomia. The solution to that, courtesy of my Zen master at the time, is that if you concentrate on the still, you will become still. I changed to watching my breath when sitting zen, and to circulating the qi (microcosmic orbit) when doing the others.  Since I do mostly standing, I have been doing the orbit, with natural breath, for about 15 years, (but was unaware of that name for it until I looked for how others had translated 小周天).

 

I'm not saying that is the end-all of 'it's harmful and dangerous you should find a master' but it does give me some perspective to know what is meant when someone says a practice is 'harmful and dangerous', and how to avoid problems. My 'master' was John Li. All others since have not seemed to have the same bond or depth, or have seemed like reflections of his teaching.

 

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

If I would compare your description to my practice, you are describing more strain than that is required in my method. 

My perception is that the strain is something that will pass, although I'm not sure. I started with about 8 different practices for (variously described) reversing the generative force so it rises to the dantian, cultivating Inner Fire, awakening kundalini, etc. and went through them in sequence each stand. Some of them had no effect except to strenghten the muscles, one gave me a lot of control over muscles that previously weren't voluntary, and one started to work, probably building on the others initially. So now I'm doing that one.  The technique is becoming more gentle, the results -- heat, shaking, visions, etc. are what is currently the strain, along with the breathing, which involves holding a breath. That part is difficult due to my age and not having started that earlier.

 

I also practice these when going to sleep and waking up, if I arrange my body just so (slightly modified from Chen Xiyi's position). Some of the things discovered that way I can bring to my standing the next day. I may soon be able to do away with holding the breath, since I can sometimes do without it lying down.

 

Mantak Chia and JAJ -- don't recognize 'JAJ'.  Mantak Chia seems to have a root in the practices in Lu K'uan-Yu's Taoist Alchemy or something similar, I find what he says to be useful through a huge filter -- I'm science oriented by training and a lot of what he says isn't even close, but I did latch on to some parts of his descriptions of Kan and Li after finding that my pulse actually did descend below my dantian. The scientist in me is still trying to figure out what artery-organ combination would allow a pulse identical to when my heart pounds in my chest, only down between my dantian and huiyin. The Buddhist-Daoist in me is more interested in the perception of looking down through my (empty) body when it is happening.

 

I have begun reading through the Liu I-Ming thread.  I can't get www.xiulian.com to display properly yet, have looked at some of the other references.

 

Pre- versus post-birth Kan and Li -- Could you please explain?  I had thought that Kan and Li were post birth and the process of bringing Li below Kan was aimed at transforming them precisely because they were so.

 

 

I signed up to this forum specifically because of this topic, which I started reading a little while ago.

My interest in 'water above fire', which I associate with Kan and Li, is a little involved.  I studied Hwa Yu T'ai Chi with John Li in Boston in the 1970s (xinyi liuhebafa), have studied things since but that has basically been a mainstay, I there have been periods when I didn't practice but most of the time since have continued to stand.  My interest has been in two threads related to this:  Phrases out of the Five Word Song that refer to 'microcosmic orbit' (小周天) in the beginning, and references to water over fire (坎離）near the end.  The second thread is that I learned that the kind of standing we did was called "Wind Circle Standing."

 

The first references are as follows:

放之彌六合，包羅小天地 (v. 5,6) let it expand to fill the universe (cosm), wrap and contain it as the small heaven and earth, which I take as a pretty clear reference to the microcosmic orbit practice, and

一吸氣便提，氣下可歸臍，一提氣便咽，水火得相見 (v. 123,124,125,126) as soon as you inhale raise the qi , the qi then descends and can return to the navel, as soon as the chi rises swallow, the water and fire must meet.

 

As for the wind circle standing, I went through a lot of stuff to determine that this is a reference to the cycle in the central channel (thrusting channel - 冲脈) and from what I could glean (again from a lot of stuff), the practice here starts with something nearly the same as tummo.  I don't particularly find this strange, there was a lot of mixture of thought and experiment in Central Asia/Northern China at the time when a lot of similar practices were gelling.

 

So I have been specifically working through whichever and whatever practice moves me toward generating the water energy, moving it up, moving fire down, and have had some successes and a lot more experiments than those.  I can get the energy to ball, I can make it rise (actually it goes up slowly with some glitches, but can get to my 'spirit valley' or middle of my head with a funnel shape pointing upward) and I can get my pulse to sink to below my dantian, with this water energy above it.

 

That's why I was excited to read the discussion.  I do this while doing my standing, I can stand for 40min-1hour with natural breath, but when doing the above detailed machinations, I find it difficult to keep going more than about 1/2 hour at the very most, as the breathing and holding are strenuous (at least at my age), and there is a lot of shaking, which oddly removes aches and pains as it passes through them.

 

Would love to hear people's thoughts about it.  It is the first changes this big I've made to my standing in 40 some years.

Hi, glad to have signed up for Dao Bums, I've been reading for a while.  I signed up finally because I'm excited about the thread Water Over Fire, I haven't read it all, but I am working on that.  I learned Hwa Yu T'ai Chi (liuhebafa) from John Chung Li, and have been doing it off and on since, and have been doing standing almost all that time with some breaks.  I recently got interested in re-translating some of the Five Word Song, and got interested in the water above fire and small heaven and earth passages, which are references to Kan Li and to Microcosmic Orbit.  I have been working on both.  I will save some for joining that discussion, but I have had some progress.