ljazztrumpet

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

Hahaha!! Nice man! I'm finally getting the respect I deserve!

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

I have addressed Marblehead as Dada-da for a while now. Let's banter more re the 'simplify' thread.

 

Ok, ok. I can dig it man. Solid. 

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

 

A great weekend Lex.

 

Thanks man, you too.. I’m just sitting in my car waiting to go in and do a nice small group jazz gig at a fancy steakhouse down here on Wall St, NYC.. So that’s a good start to the weekend anyway!

Yeah man, absolutely. If I have more ease/clarity/wisdom/love within myself, I am better able to help someone else. To get to the place with everyone (not just loved ones) where I have the same level of concern for them as myself is something I really desire.

 I think it's definitely good to be skeptical of the 'mysterious stuff', especially in this day and age. If you are really curious, just ask Life/The Universe/Etc. to put you into contact with someone who has had those types of experiences. Hey, it's worth a shot and you might be surprised!

Righto - But there are people who have overcome suffering and are able to take on others suffering without suffering themselves. Example - The most prolific healer I'm aware of, who healed tens of thousands of people in Germany and Europe in the 1940's and 50's, had two dots that showed up on his X-Rays at the end of his life. One was small, and one was big. The small one he said was from all the people he helped to heal and he said that was fine, it didn't bother him at all. The big one was the suppression of his energy as the German government kept trying to prohibit him from healing. That's what killed him. He predicted his death years before and how it would happen.

At the end of his life he was walking around and talking to people and his whole insides were burned out. The doctors at the time couldn't understand how he could possibly still be walking around. When he died, the doctors didn't know what to call it, so they said he died of cancer. When he died, there was very unusual weather phenomenon that happened at that moment with thunderstorms and the like just out of nowhere. Reminds me of some of the stories you hear about the big JC dying at crucifixion.

All of this reminds me of people who go through torturous deaths and are laughing and singing..or the buddhist monk types who self-immolate and sit there totally peacefully. It shows me that the suffering isn't there. They may experience pain, yes, but they don't judge it as 'good' or 'bad' at the deepest of levels within themselves..No thought of, 'The pain shouldn't be here..I wish it would stop, etc.' So no suffering.

At a much 'lower' level, I notice that, as I evolve in love consciousness, I am able to take on a friends suffering without having it effect me as much as it used to. 

Oh, here's a good clip of John Sherman (from justonelook.org) talking about this idea of having intense pain and not suffering from it.

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

  But then I was playing with words so I am to blame.

 

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

See?  You misunderstood my usage of the word relatives.  I was speaking about relative truths.

 

But Lima is right, this thread is about if enlightenment is desirable. THEREFORE, you must choose the title you want.

Marble-Da? Marble-Ji?

My full title is:

'Most Great and Holy Master of Enlightenment, Love, Compassion, and Humility'

I realize that is a mouthful so I tell people, once they get to know me better, they can just call me Ljazz.. or Lex. 

3 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suffering is suffering.

The desire the end suffering is suffering.

Acceptance of suffering is the end of suffering.

Acceptance of the desire to end suffering is the end of suffering.

 

I think we're on to something here...

Yeah man, we are. And that's a great way to put it.. Thanks!

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

 

Ironic, is it not, that such thoughts are themselves a form of suffering?

 

It really is! Even though I find it also to be a motivating factor, I believe that it's better to be motivated from a positive outlook, and my actions will have even more clarity and effectiveness from a totally positive standpoint.

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Very nice. This needs to be said over, and over and over again.

Yeah, it was hearing that idea from different sources that I believe allowed me to consider that possibility. Even though I used to get angry when I heard it.. But, then, I had a couple of mystical experiences after a lot of meditation, over a couple of years ago, and saw that that was actually the case - or, at least, it was a 'higher/wiser perspective' than that which usually comes from my thinking mind.

I have good arguments with myself about this

Peace to all of us.

16 hours ago, 3bob said:

a subtle and gentle wind that pierces crashing seas of thought and emotion, suddenly the raging storm is calmed and the cruel iron chains are removed, giving one rest and peace and then deeper still to an unveiling of truth and its freedom!  

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

When is this going to happen?

 

13 hours ago, cold said:

 

 

Uh, when you fall asleep?

Cha! It's happening all over the world to people right now. IMO, there are more humans at a more developed level of consciousness than ever before in traditionally recorded human history. It may not seem so because the media focuses on negative things and tragedies and the like. This is not necessarily bad because it brings peoples' attention to problems that still need to be addressed. Things are way better than they were 100 years ago. It may not seem so because of the media, but I feel that's because of technology - the internet and the like. Everything has greatly 'shrunk', and we get our information extremely quickly in this day and age in most cases. But I believe if we had the technology 100 years ago that we do now, there would be much more negativity being reported 100 years ago than compared to nowadays. 

Should it happen more quickly - the winds of transformation changing everything and ending suffering? Well, imo, of course it should. I can't be that surrendered - at least most of the time. I have had some mystical-type experiences in deep meditation where I really saw everything was perfect just the way it is and nothing needs to be changed (including actions to create change). But, then my thinking mind came in and I went about my day and said, 'Hey, that's crazy! Things need to change and suffering needs to end!'.. But it was good for me to have those mystical experiences because it was yet another way of showing me that there are things 'greater/wiser' than my thinking mind. 

Now that I am writing this out, I see a great outlook to have would be to realize that everything really is perfect the way it is, nothing needs to be changed, and all my actions to try to heal and help myself and others needn't be changed either. It would probably be the most effective for me to develop this outlook all the time, as I wouldn't have any type of undercurrent of frustration/anger about suffering going on in the world. I could act from a higher place of love and understanding which would probably bring greater clarity to my actions and apparent decisions. I wouldn't be surprised if Life forced me into this outlook sooner or later!

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I'm back for a break from my other activities.  I see nothing I need respond or comment to.

 

 

 

 

Dude, you say that now, but that's only because I haven't used my dueling glove on you yet in this thread. 

On 11/15/2017 at 0:22 AM, Lost in Translation said:

We all know people who are suffering. Many of us may also be suffering.

 

We cultivate compassion towards others, and towards ourselves. This is good. This is excellent. But what does that actually mean? For example, you know people who are suffering. You feel compassion towards them. What's next? Do you reach out to help? If so, how can you help without enabling? How do you know that your actions are truly compassionate? It may be that the best compassion is to do nothing.

 

Ideas?

I've studied spiritual healing for a number of years and had quite a number of profound experiences. As far as compassion, it depends on how you define it. This I can tell you. Across the board, in all different belief paradigms, I have seen that the few people with a very highly developed love consciousness are the ones that can effect physical and/or emotional healings in people where traditional and alternative medicine has failed. These people are also the ones who emphasize the importance to the people they are helping, that healing themselves/keeping themselves healthy is done through developing a very high degree of love consciousness. Along with this, I always notice these people have great humility, and would never think of taking any type of 'credit' for the work they do. Many times they realize that Life forced them to the place in consciousness that they're at, and it doesn't have anything to do with their ego selves. 

So to answer the question of how do you know your actions are truly compassionate. In the way I look at things, from all the experiences I've had in spiritual healing, you can know your actions to help someone else are positive and compassionate if you are able to effect any physical/emotional healing in them. Better yet, and what seems to take place more often in this day and age, is the ability to show someone how they can heal themselves through highly developed love consciousness. Even if you are at a high enough level of love consciousness to heal a person, they still have to have the tools to maintain their healing. They have to lift their own love consciousness up to a very high level. I was just talking with a lady who has healed two people this past year who were totally blind, now they can see. But it doesn't have to be that grandiose. Sometimes just being there for a person and listening with a non-judgmental ear and 'sending' them love can effect a huge change in a person and even save their life if they are feeling depressed. 

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I'm not going to ask how you found this, but ...

Cha! R u kidding? All the cats who don’t believe in enlightenment go there to check out all the people who get way caught up in their egos and proclaim ‘enlightenment’. Check it out man, there’s some funny stories on there! 

11 hours ago, Gunther said:

The topic of revelation. Anything to go by, I am now inclined to give enlightenment a pass. 😀

By Jove, I think he’s got it! I guess I can let the proverbial ‘cat out of the bag’ now Gunther. This whole thread was set up to show YOU the meaninglessness of pursuing some concept of ‘enlightenment’. Paradoxically, now that you have rejected the pursuit of enlightenment, we have to label you as enlightened.

 All hail Gunther-ji! 

 

Today thedaobums, tomorrow - guruphiliac.org for you! Ohh yeah!! 

 

 

Yeah, that's how you're gonna start to look now that you are enlightened: 

2 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

it's autumn ( here)

some leaves seem to be falling

In fact, all this reminds of the interview I was just listening to yesterday when I was driving around. This cat, Michael Jaco, an ex-navy SEAL, used the technique of sending out love very effectively in combat situations..I was very impressed by some of his stories: 

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

It does not take a lot of effort to be kind. Try it, you might like it.

Ha! It depends on who you're hanging out with! I think because of desires I've had to raise my consciousness and kindness level, I usually attract into my life people who are kinder than I am as inspirations. But, that being said, I really feel one of the main points of this life, for myself and others who want what I want, is to be at this level:

From George Ritchie's book 'Return From Tomorrow'

He was one of the inmates of the concentration camp, but obviously he had not been there long; his posture was erect, his eyes bright, his energy indefatigable. Since he was fluent in English, French, German and Russian, as well as Polish, he became a kind of unofficial camp translator.

We came to him with all sorts of problems; the paperwork alone was staggering in attempting to relocate people whose families, even whole hometowns, might have disappeared. But though Wild Bill worked fifteen and sixteen hours a day, he showed no signs of weariness. While the rest of us were drooping with fatigue, he seemed to gain strength. "We have time for this old fellow," he would say. "He's been waiting to see us all day." His compassion for his fellow prisoners glowed on his face, and it was to this glow that I came when my own spirits were low.

So I was astonished to learn, when Wild Bill's own papers came before us one day, that he had been in Wuppertal since 1939! For six years he had lived on the same starvation diet, slept in the same airless and disease-ridden barracks as everyone else, but without the least physical or mental deterioration.

Perhaps even more amazing, every group in the camp looked on him as a friend. He was the one to whom quarrels between inmates were brought for arbitration. Only after I had been at Wuppertal a number of weeks did I realize what a rarity this was in a compound where the different nationalities of prisoners hated each other almost as much as they did the Germans.

As for the Germans, feelings against them ran so high that in some of the camps liberated earlier, former prisoners had seized guns, run into the nearest village and simply shot the first Germans they saw. Part of our instructions were to prevent this kind of thing and again Wild Bill was our greatest asset, reasoning with the different groups, counseling forgiveness.

"It's not easy for some of them to forgive," I commented to him one day as we sat over mugs of tea in the proceeding center. "So many of them have lost members of their families."

Wild Bill leaned back on the upright chair and sipped at his drink. "We lived in the Jewish section of Warsaw," he began slowly, the first words I had heard him speak about himself. "My wife, our two daughters, and our three little boys. When the Germans reached our street they lined everyone against a wall and opened up with machine guns. I begged to be allowed to die with my family, but because I spoke German they put me in a work group."

He paused, perhaps seeing again his wife and children. "I had to decide right then," he continued, "whether to let myself hate the soldiers who had done this. It was an easy decision, really. I was a lawyer. In my practice I had seen too often what hate could do to people's minds and bodies. Hate had just killed the six people who mattered most to me in the world. I decided then that I would spend the rest of my life, whether it was a few days or many years, loving every person I came in contact with."

Loving every person…this was the power that had kept a man well in the face of every privation. (George Ritchie, Return from Tomorrow, 129-132)

5 hours ago, Wells said:

 

I am convinced that in history many lay people by themselves intuitively found a similar and simple way to complete enlightenment, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to achieve that too if you invest enough time and energy.

Years back I felt very compelled to learn how the great spiritual healers got to the point that they did. Things kept being attracted into my life that brought me to have more illusions/blocks fall away. But, then, it got to the point where I felt it was too hard and I wanted to stop..I just wanted to live a comfortable, peaceful life. And, now, despite my feeling that this is too challenging to continue to pursue, I feel Life is absolutely forcing me to continue. It is like, 'Do this, or suffer.' And, to me, that's not much of a choice! No human really wants to suffer.. Point is, be careful what you wish before because you may reach the point of no return!

5 hours ago, Wells said:

I also agree that it's not so much about sessions of sitting down and meditating,

although that in itself surely helps too.

Instead, the method should be implemented into everyday living.

Yes, I agree. Although I do think formal meditation periods can be helpful in establishing a 24/7 clarity of consciousness. Being into spiritual healing, I look for physical and emotional healings that occur that are not treatable/cureable by modern medical techniques. Across the board it has been my experience that those who are able to effect healing in themselves and others have a very high quality of love consciousness as well as embodying an inner peace of mind and clarity that is palpable. These days a lot of my meditations are focused on ‘radiating out’ love to whoever/whatever comes to my mind. Doing this in a formal meditation helps me carry this over to when I am just going about my daily life. 

On 10/24/2017 at 11:12 AM, steve said:

 

 

So if there is a feeling of meaninglessness, uncertainty, and nihilism; that is not enlightenment.

Nor is it the full realization of basic Taoist truths.

It is a partial truth that either needs to be abandoned, as you suggest, or much more deeply realized.

Spiritual practice can certainly have ups and downs, some of our realizations can be shocking and painful.

Overall, however, if it does not lead you to being better adjusted, more content, and more loving and supportive of others than, in my opinion, it's worthless and better left alone.

 

I hope that helps in some small way.

Wow - Closest definition of enlightenment I think I've seen.

@Will - If you are totally at your 'wit's end' and see no other possible practical solution to feeling more contentment, you could pray that Life removes any blocks you have to loving everyone and everything all the time. But make sure you've tried every other thing you can think of first to bring yourself contentment. This one, imo, should only be used as a 'last ditch' attempt if you have nothing left to lose..because it's, like, pretty intense..  Yeah, that emoji sums it up nicely..it will probably be your default expression if you do this! Or maybe  

Good luck dude! Sending you the + vibes of contentment..at least as much as I'm able

On 11/6/2017 at 2:31 PM, Starjumper said:

 

 

This is where the bravery and patience of a warrior helps you. Even though you become depressed and saddened you realize this is the way of the world and of course you want to help make it better.  You want to improve things, and since you know that this practice you have which lead you to have this wonderful experience and love and honesty can be so beneficial to others you think that everyone should have the same experience and you want to help them have it. This is the state of enlightenment, which is actually post enlightenment (the word enlightened, ending in the letters ‘ed’, means past tense) which the Buddhists call bodhisattva. So then you want everybody to become your students and learned this wonderful chi kung which took you there. It takes some time to realize that most people are not interested in this process, they don't believe you could take them there anyway, and even if they did most of them really don't want to do the work or stick with it. This is brought home more strongly when you notice all the money grubbing unenlightened idiots whose advertising uses promises enlightenment generally combined with the concepts of ‘quick and easy’.  So after a few years you just kind of give up and realize you'll be lucky to help even one person, and you end up not really giving a damn about all of people who don't really give a damn about themselves either since the main things they care about are egotistical. This State is what the Buddhists call being a Buddha, actually giving up and letting go and letting them run their rat race to be first to the slaughter house.  Due to feelings of empathy and compassion you wish them well and wish you could do something to help but in the end  wishing them to have not too much pain on their blind journey.

What I have noticed, being involved in spiritual healing circles for quite awhile, is that if a person is really suffering they are usually open to just about anything. I know of many stories where loved ones/friends 'sent' love to a person afflicted with a physical and/or emotional sickeness - or a serious addiction. Many times these people don't know that anyone is doing anything on their behalf, but they still recover - they become healthy, they lose the taste of whatever their addicted to. Quite amazing really. Now, if they continue in their current behavior, maybe, after awhile, they fall back into the original condition, on the other hand, perhaps they realize that a change is necessary for them to maintain their healing. I've gotten to the point where I usually can tell if a person gives a damn about truly healing, or just wants to stick with their egoic pursuits. Those who are truly ready, tend to receive healing - In the main healing group I was in, we had what were called 'success reports'. Whenever possible there would be a medical doctor who would verify the healing (there were many thousands of medical doctors in this spiritual healing group.) and it would be shared throughout the group as a kind of motivating factor.

All this being said, I can't say these people were in the majority, because they had to be at that stage where they were suffering enough to give up the egotistical behaviors that were causing their sicknesses/addictions. But the dozens or more healings I have been aware of in this particular manner have been extremely impressive to me. Even if you can just help just one person, that is BIG. Who knows what they will go on to? :-)

Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind means, to me, to love everything intensely because everything that is, is God and you are part of that. 

Love your neighbor as yourself comes after you've cultivated a sense of love for everything that is. That you realize that everything you are conscious of is really you. When you have cultivated this sense of all-encompassing love then you kind of 'focus down' and go about your practical life and feeling that love you are developing for everything - the everything which is you - and you are feeling that feeling for everyone you see.

To me, one is more of a meditative exercise you may do when you're alone and, then, when you are out and about in your daily life interacting with others, you feel that love for all of them. And, perhaps, as you cultivate that love to a high enough level, you see no difference between your 'self' and 'other'. I still think love is the most effective way to break down the illusion of separation, just because it's so experiential. You start to love others more and more because you see them as simply you. I think it's a practice to be cultivated and, i would think, it becomes more and more natural over time. 

5 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Just wholehearted forgiving drops burdens. 

Just aligning thoughts, mind, and speech with outer action concludes conflict.

Just wholehearted appreciation is self-love and the conclusion of the choice to suffer phenomenon. 

 

Reading about it, chanting about it, sitting thinking about is not living it. 

 

When living these simple basics with the unbreakable resolve, a being is in sight of the ramp to the jump into having the word "enlightenment" shed its thick wrapper of dogma/desire/fear and instead become an appreacted experiential aspect of Now. 

 

Meditate only when willing to commit to it offering meaningful evolution. All the '10,000 things' and the functions of one's body and nature are here in great compassion to offer some range of experiences/lessons in this moment.  Suck the wisdom from all of them with the same commitment, precision, and speed which a mongoose hunts the cobra. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Wonderful sentiments Buddy Jetsun.. My current opinion is that we have to 'build' unbreakable resolve through practice. I'm sure one could get to the point where they could use nearly every conscious moment of their life doing this. And, perhaps, all of us are doing it now unconsciously.

Aligning thoughts, mind, and speech with outer action also takes practice/intention. 

Imo, that is great advice about meditation.

The outlook that everything that happens is for our good in some way or another is a very worthwhile practice I find. And I find this ties into the practice of raising my 'love consciousness'.  

Thanks again for sharing this Bud! All the very best, Lex

11 hours ago, C T said:

From the Mahayana perspective, its not that the self is false, but the notion of an independently existing entity (as the self) that is truly false. When this is realised, it is said that compassion will arise spontaneously from having uncovered the clear sightedness of dependent origination. At around the same time that this clarity begins to reveal its unbounded essence, the aspiring bodhisattva will actually begin to gradually discard arrogant notions of self-independence, and this in turn will arouse compassionate views that will eventually lead the aspirant to consider others (the bodhisattvas are first taught conceptually to regard all beings as having been their parents at one time or another) as even more important than the self-ideating self, if that makes any sense. 

But in some Buddhist traditions/teachings, as well as advaitic, it seems that the traditional teaching advises cultivating the values of love, kindness, compassion, and service first, and that sets the 'fertile ground' for realizations of the clear sightedness of dependent origin.

That being said, one of the practices I do, John Sherman's 'Self-Directed Attention' exercise, is about clearing away the 'fear of life' and, then, what's left is that compassion. So perhaps approach this in two different directions is ideal. 

2 hours ago, Rickie said:

I must not be enlightened then.  Poor me.

Lucky you!