Geof Nanto

Worth repeating!

You are writing some excellent posts here Freeform. Thank you. To give a slightly different take on pleasure seeking, would you say you’ve found a path that gives you great pleasure? Or maybe better expressed, you’ve found a path that gives pleasure to the Divine heart-mind (daoxin 道心) within you? From what you write, I suspect you would not like to express it in this way. Something that’s apparent to me is that Damo and Adam love what they are doing. This to me is of fundamental importance. I’ve learnt plenty from teachers who do love what they are doing, but I’ve also learnt over the years not to imitate them. They have found their path and I can admire their attainments but what is my path? Does what I’m doing have a heart? How does the Divine want to express itself through me? Something I wrote a while back on my cultivation practice: For me deeper down, I only do this because, all things considered, it's the easiest path for me. That's how Dao works, why it's sometimes referred to as the Watercourse Way. Mine has been a path of following my desires, of doing what I felt like, and then dealing with the consequences. Initially these consequences, though pleasurable at first, had almost entirely unpleasant consequences. But slowly through an alchemical process of refinement using the whole of life as fire and cauldron, my desires have slowly transmuted into something far more harmonious with Dao. This could also be called a path of following one's heart. And sure, I am forced to gain insight into rotten aspects of my heart. No way is this pleasant! Yet it's still the easiest thing for me to do because not dealing with it feels like stagnation and a slow death of my heart; of my soul. That's what happens with inner cultivation. My alignment with Dao strengthens and I'm compelled to act accordingly because I gain a glimpse of an awe-inspiring deeper reality. I’ve found nothing else that compares to the sense of wholeness, of inner belonging, which a felt connection with the numinous mystery I choose to call the Divine brings. (I written some more on finding my own personal path with a heart in my PPD under the heading, Drug addiction, money and the transmutation of desire.)

Thank you for telling us a little about yourself. You are most welcome here!

I’d so no, the causal factors run much deeper. Ian Johnson’s The Souls of China gives plenty of historical insight into why China needed to destroy its traditional structure; a structure that was totally and seamlessly religious. “Understanding this spiritual tumult [in modern China] requires making a detour back in time to its cause, one of the greatest antireligious movements in world history, one that affected all major faiths in China: Buddhism, Christianity, Daoism, folk religion, and Islam. Because China has been run by a Communist Party for such a long time, it might seem like a typical case of atheistic Communists attacking religion, and to a degree it was. But the campaign against religion did not originate with the Communists’ takeover in 1949. Instead, it began a century earlier, when China’s traditional civilization began to collapse. This breakdown was triggered by a crisis of confidence. For most of its history, China dominated its neighbors. Some were militarily stronger, especially the nomadic peoples to its north, such as the Xiongnu, the Mongols, and the Manchus. But even when these groups got the upper hand and conquered China, Chinese rarely doubted the superiority of their civilization. Chinese were often self-critical but believed that their ways of life would prevail. “China’s encounter with the West shook that self-assurance. Starting with the First Opium War of 1839, China suffered a string of military defeats. Many in power were at first unfazed, figuring that they only needed better technology, especially arsenals, ships, and cannons. But when China kept losing battles and territory, a sense of crisis developed. Chinese looked around the world and saw how the West had carved up the Americas and Africa and subjugated India. Was China next? By the end of the nineteenth century, a growing number of Chinese began to believe that their country needed more than superficial changes. They realized that China lacked modern science, engineering, education, public health, and advanced agricultural methods. All of these things were products of a radically different way of ordering society, one based primarily on science. As the crisis deepened, increasingly radical ideas took hold. China didn’t just need new policies, or even a new dynasty. It needed to abolish the emperor. It had to overthrow the entire political system of running China. And that meant destroying the religious system that was its most important pillar.” I’ve started this topic to give a space to explore at a greater depth the very important issues @freeformraises in his discussion with @ChiDragonhere. I’m only wanting to disagree with Freeform on his assertion that’s it’s all the fault of the CCP, not with the reality of what he is saying about the internal arts. For me, disconnection from their divine roots is at the core of the problem. And this is hugely important.

I've just edited that post and added to it.

Those are all good questions but no way am I going to do my head in by trying to articulate all I think and feel about them. In any case, the fact that you are thinking about lineage to the depth that your questions show, tells me your more than capable of finding your own answers. Edit to add: Here’s an extract from a previous post of mine which may give you some insight into my own experiences: From: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48536-an-awakening-through-living-in-the-wilderness/?do=findComment&comment=909023

Damo and Adam are both gifted teachers and I feel their power of attraction. But they are not my teachers. In the past I have studied under a number a gifted teachers and learnt much lineage based theory and practice methods. This is all vital foundational stuff. However, no teacher can show me my path. That’s something that’s unique for all of us and must be individually attained. All the teachers I’ve worked with have only been interested in showing me their system. And I’ve very much wanted to learn it. In a very real sense, as part of their transmission, they overwrite me with their lineage-based power, their lineage-based persona. This is all well and good if it’s my destiny to become a part of their lineage. And that’s what I wanted for many years, but it hasn’t been the way my life’s path has played out. I read a while back from a close associate of Carl Jung’s that Jung didn’t want to overwrite anyone, yet most people who came to him wanted very much to be overwritten. That’s how I’ve been in my search for teachings, my search for meaning. Jung didn’t like that, but he accepted it as reality. He didn’t want a lineage of Jungians, yet he gained one. What he wanted was to give people insight into how Spirit tries to speak to each of us individually. He saw his role as like that of an obstetrician; he wanted to help people remove inner obstructions that were hindering their giving birth to who Nature wanted them to be – like genuine neidan practice does. An associate who sometimes sat in with Jung during his consultations said that she was amazed at how Jung could listen to seemingly endless recounting of a person’s life problems and situation, and then at some point stop them and say, “That’s where Spirit is trying to contact you.” He’d give people no easy answers but rather direct them away from the false problems they thought they had and show them the deeper meaningful problems that they needed to confront. He gave them difficulty not comfort. But it was insight into the richly meaningful archetypal difficulty that’s at the core of every one of us. (In neidan we refer to this archetypal realm as pre-Heaven.) And although we all have it in our own unique ways, it seems to me few of us are required by Nature to confront it. This, for me a least, is so much harder to deal with than becoming part of a lineage, religion or any other sort of group. Yet without my decades of Daoist based praxis and other teachings I'd lack the inner strength and clarity I need for this inner rebirth. And, perhaps ironically given I started on the path seeking comfort, it's only through my practice that I've felt how Nature / Spirit demands this of me.

Some similarities, but fundamental differences too. Here’s another extract from the book which gives good insight into how traditional Chinese society was unlike anything which exists today and may also help @Gerard to understand what I meant by “a structure that was totally and seamlessly religious”. Another book which helped me enormously to get a feeling for old Chinese culture is Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion 1250 – 1276, by Jacques Gernet. In it he states: "The divinity [of those times] was so little personalised, so natural as it were, that religious beliefs and practices seemed to express a lay conception of the world rather than a duality between the sacred and profane and seems to us essential to all religion." (Of course, you need to read the book to get the full picture of what he means by this.)

See this comprehensive post by @senseless virtue: Note particularly the post of @Walker which he references: His conclusion about Du Xinlin: "This fortifies the argument that "Master Du" very likely is a complete fabrication that was made up to impress Dr. Baolin Wu's students with some very special connection and potential — that could maybe rub on you if you spend money on his courses and healing services, as such marketing business is usually motivated."

In Wilhelm’s preface to his Yi Jing translation he writes: “When Tsingtau [Qingdao] became the residence of a number of the most eminent scholars of the old school, I met among them my honored teacher, Lao Nai Hsuan. I am indebted to him not only for a deeper understanding. . . but also because he first opened my mind to the wonders of the Book of Changes. Under his experienced guidance I wandered entranced through this strange and yet familiar world. The translation of the text was made after detailed discussion. Then the German version was translated into Chinese and it was only after the meaning of the text had been fully brought out that we considered our version to be truly a translation.” Adding to the image of instruction from a gifted teacher and countless hours of meticulous work, what I particularly like about this documentary is that it gives insight into why the circumstances that gave rise to his Yi Jing translation were no mere chance happenings. Quietly woven into the fabric of the documentary is the image of him being guided towards the task from his late adolescence onwards. In the aftermath of a failed suicide attempt during his Grammar school days his psyche was opened to the divine. He wrote at the time: An “indescribable feeling of being protected filled me.” From then on his life felt full of purpose, whereas previously it felt meaningless. That purpose was revealed to him in glimpses at key times during his life.

This is an excellent documentary. It’s made by Richard Wilhelm’s granddaughter.

This song could well be about the obscurities and pitfalls of neidan teachings and practice: And a little about aspects of this discussion: Oh we were gone Kings of oblivion we were so turned on in the mind-warp pavillion This is no easy path that we try to walk to the best of our abilities. Time and time again I see aspects of myself reflected in the behaviour of others. My own folly and the suffering it has brought has taught me a measure of compassion for us all.

I’m well aware of standardised chakra theory. It’s the first thing I encountered when I started yoga practice at a Satyananda yoga ashram about forty years ago. Their focus was kundalini yoga. I still have Swami Satyananda Saraswati’s comprehensive book on the subject, titled Kundalini Tantra. It presents the whole modern version of kundalini yoga theory and practice in concise form. I was immensely impressed with it at the time. Here was a systemised way to transcend my mundane reality which relied solely on my own effort. The practice felt real and its ‘truth’ was upheld by many hundreds of people dedicating their lives to following this path. I still have good memories of those early days of my experiences with those people. It was a new world for me with an entirely new worldview derived from the Vedas. The Satyananda trained swamis gave what I still consider to be good guidance and practicing their gentle traditional hatha yoga style helped me enormously. Yet as to any sort of deeper awakening, that yogic path did not call me. After much exploration both within myself and in the external world, I now know that at the heart of any true spiritual path, we enter into the realm of vague and elusive mystery traditions. Such paths can never be systemised. They are individually shaped and reveal themselves in their own way over long periods of time. But we all need a tangible way in and these systemised approaches work well for us westerners, at least in the preparatory stages which may last for decades. However holding to them for too long becomes a barrier to deeper attainment.

I edited my post and added to it well before you replied:

Are you speaking from your own experience? I ask this because you seem to be falling into the error of trying to make reality fit theory. Are there really seven chakras? How did this standardised system arise? I’ve only done basic research on the subject but have read enough to know this theory is a relatively modern invention. See for instance: https://hareesh.org/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras

On the question of spontaneous kundalini awakenings, I consider this account to be indicative of how a real awakening can play out:

A farewell song from a great artist to commemorate the sixth anniversary his death…

I wrote something about ChiDragon a couple of days ago here. That’s all I want to say, other than to make it clear that in no way was that comment meant as a criticism of Trunks’s action at the time. Indeed, I thoroughly appreciate how he took on the role of administrator despite some initial reluctance to take on that burden, and acted decisively to end the reign of chaos into which this forum had descended. In that situation I can well understand why he included ChiDragon on his ban list. However, the forum is no longer in that state of chaos and I think ChiDragon should be judged on his behaviour in his current incarnation. Afterall, we all do cultivation practices in the hope of becoming better people (or, at least, many of us do). And, speaking generally, this forum can be an excellent place to work through power and ego issues.

ReturnDragon (aka ChiDragon) was included in the mass banning purge which Trunk implemented on becoming administrator in April 2020. I never had much interaction with him, but to my understanding he was not banned because of any obnoxious manner. Rather, he was banned because a number of members considered he was posting excessive amounts of misinformation. While I react negatively to anyone posting what I consider to be false information, and appreciate to effort members put in to counter it, the moderators made it clear in relation to Covid 19 discussions that their job is to ensure discussion is respectful and abides by the forum rules, not to decide what is false information and what is not. If that’s the case, looked at objectively, did ChiDragon violate any forum rules? In retrospect, was he wrongly banned?

How my compost toilet looks above: And below where the composting happens: This toilet holds compost comprising over 15 years of my shit mixed with wood shavings. It’s amazing how what would otherwise be a huge pile composts down to a relatively small amount of garden rich nutrient. I haven't had to empty it yet, but I do need to rake down every few months the pile that forms in the centre. (Before health regulations forced me to install it, I had a pit toilet which worked very well too and required no maintenance at all. It composted happily by itself with help from ongoing contact with the soil.) I think with the right attitude the same alchemical transmutation can happen here on Dao Bums; that the great piles of words we deposit here can go through a slow composting and transmutation process within our individual psyches so that the true essence of our words turns into rich cultivation nutrient. At least, that’s what I feel is happening with my engagement here.

Of great relevance here is the fact that Sean, the site owner, has made it very clear that he wants Dao Bums to be a forum underpinned by kindness and compassion. To my observation, the upholding of these qualities by staff is the fundamental reason Dao Bums has survived as a vibrant place. Sure, robust discussion is welcome here because allowing respectful disagreement gives this forum its vitality. But the key word here is respectful. If Taoist Texts or anyone else wants to promote a form of Daoism or any other philosophy which goes against these values, or engage in the type of discussion characterised by trying to demean and belittle anyone who disagrees with them, then the site owner has made it clear that they are not welcome here. You've tagged @zerostao and @steve. I'll add @Trunk, @ilumairen and @dwai

I have no trouble accepting the reality of what the label ‘non-dual’ attempts to convey. It’s something I intuitively feel and have done so for a long time, well before I heard the label non-dual. That sense has continued to deepen ‘self-so’ with my ongoing cultivation practice. Yet, although it’s becoming increasingly palpable as a felt sense, it also reveals itself as a deeper and deeper mystery. I can well understand why a person who intuitively senses this would remain silent. Hence the saying from the Daodejing: “Those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak.” My trouble with this discussion is the way I see ‘non-dual’ is being presented as a monism (by Dwai and Stirling in particular). And monism implies hidden dualism. Hence this discussion reveals plenty of dualism (duel-ism). In fact, it’s being energised by dualism. For me the message that’s being shouted here by the most outspoken of those who label themselves as non-dualists, namely that the poor ignorant masses suffer terribly because they don’t know this amazing numinous truth of nondualism, is more to banish their own hidden doubts; doubts that they themselves are, in fact, far removed from this deep ineffable mystery. What I’ve written so far enters me into the fray of duel-ism. I’m very much aware of that and it’s not a place I want to dwell. However, I am irritated by some of the ignorant assumptions that are being propagated here. (Yet I’m also impressed by some of the deep thinking on the subject by most people and Apech in particular, not to mention Bindi’s ability to take on multiple opponents with seemingly undiminished energy). To my mind this discussion has now gone on long enough for each of us to express (or at least acknowledge privately to ourselves) our motives for participating. An obvious one for me is my need for connection. Another is to assert myself as a separate individual. Yet I also feel how we are all part of a whole. Even though I’m expressing disagreement with attitudes of some members, I like them as people, especially when they reveal something of their personal stories. That is a truth and so is the truth of separation. Connection and separation; a yin-yang pair, both of which need to be honoured as vital constituents of the non-dual. I rest my case. And conclude by acknowledging the importance of this forum to me as a place where I can express my thoughts on experiences central to my life and likewise read (and sometimes feel) those of other people. This is a great gift.

I’ll stick with a laugh emoticon for that reply because it made me smile. But I’d add a ‘Thanks’ as well if I could. And also the non-existent emoticon which says, ‘Yes, but there is another side to this’... I made that comment to make it clear that I have severe reservations about the contemporary nondual school as described by a couple of prominent nondualists on this forum (not Steve). But, along with that, I’d also like to make clear that I have no doubts about the sincerity of these nondualists and their genuine commitment to a spiritual path. I like them as people and value them as members of this forum. It’s just the path they espouse that I don’t like. To me it feels like spiritual opium; a seductive and addictive trap that ultimately prevents deeper realisation.

Not so difficult to understand as concepts. Extremely difficult to attain as lived reality. “… those who study Taoism may be as numerous as hairs on a cow, but those who accomplish the Way are as rare as unicorn horns.” ~ Liu Yiming (Of course, the exception to this is the contemporary so-called ‘Non-dualist’ school where those who have found enlightenment are as numerous as hairs on a cow.)

Yes he is. I’ve previously posted a couple of interesting accounts from John Blofeld which highlight the importance of the eyes: (Note for aspiring non-dualists, the second account may greatly interest you.)