Shidifen

Derek Lin's Youtube channel is here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsPVNGGfoy7_vqhi_lT9eVA/videos

You can find videos of him going through the Dao De Jing chapter by chapter. He is now onto his second chapter by chapter explanation, which is great because a few of his videos from the first lot never got uploaded and now they're lost.

Here's the playlist for his chapter by chapter translations -

He also has a facebook page here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/tao.talks/

G'day. I want to share a couple of sung versions of the Qingjing Jing in Chinese that I found on Youtube.

The first one is a soundtrack sung by a female singer named Jing Shanyuan. She has a very beautiful voice and the accompanying music is also beautiful. It's a slow song that pulls out the Qingjing Jing to twenty minutes. It is very relaxing and it is quite easy to read along with a pinyin copy of the Qingjing Jing. Here's a good page, which also contains a link to the page's author's rendition on mp3 - http://www.silkqin.com/02qnpu/27sjts/sj03qjj.htm

The second one is sung by a Chinese bloke with a backing orchestra of traditional instruments. Its six and a half minutes long.

Version one by Jing Shanyuan - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9i2bWZqEqM

Version two by Cantonese singer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVYjm9pXYqI

G'day everyone.

I was reading a very interesting series of articles on Harmen Mesker's site (http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/) about an error in Wilhelm's I Ching. He appears to have mixed up the names the young and old yin and yang doublets. The first article is here - http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/going-back-to-the-source-the-manuscripts-of-richard-wilhelm-1/#more-2236

I was just reading through some notes I had made while reading through Legge's I Ching and I had made a note of the differences he gave to the same doublets. You'll find them on pages 58 and 423. On page 58 he called a yin line over a yang line Young Yang, but on page 423 he called the same symbol Young Yin. The same mixing up was done with the Old Yin and Old Yang symbols.

Zhou Youguang died 14-01-2017, aged 111, in Beijing.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/obituaries/zhou-youguangs-pinyin-writing-system-helped-modernise-china-20170117-gtt75i.html

I just remembered that Mair has a section in the back of his book where he put passages he doesn't consider to be genuine.

The following passages have been removed from the main body of the text (where their positions are marked by ellipses) either because they are spurious or because they are later commentaries and other types of interpolations that have been mistakenly incorporated into the text. In order to provide a complete translation of the standard edition of the Chuang Tzu, however, they are recorded here.

The next section goes after "When the P'eng looks down at the sky from above, it must appear just the same as when we look up..."

Moreover, if water has not accumulated to a sufficient depth, it will not have the strength to support a large boat. Pour a cup of water into a low spot on the floor and you can make a boat out of a mustard seed. But if you place the cup in the water it will get stuck because the boat will be large in relation to the shallowness of the water. Similarly, if the wind has not accumulated to a sufficient density, it will not have the strength to support large wings. Therefore, only at an altitude of ninety thousand tricents, with so much wind beneath it, can the P'eng ride on the wind. With its back touching the blue sky and no obstacles in its path, the P 'eng heads for the south.

Yes, in Australia the aboriginal groups have land they fully control and they also have the legal right to access Government owned land under lease to mining companies, etc. Some of them are working toward self-sufficiency since some State Governments have decided they can no longer continue paying for water, power or phone-line access for the communities. Of course the politicians can find the money for their oversized salaries, superannuation and pensions.

I have a dream of buying a few hundred acres of cheap land and randomly planting it with fruit trees and other edible plants and letting chickens run wild on it, as well as a big dam for ducks and yabbies. Then I'd build some small sheds around the place and then retire on it. Then I could just wander about, picking whatever was in season, scatter a few seeds, pick up a few eggs, catch the occasional chicken and yabby and sleep by a fire in good weather or the nearest shed in rain or cold weather. But I'd have to put a heap of money in a trust to pay for the annual rates and other Government expenses. I'd open it up to like-minded groups that want to do the same and hopefully start a new movement of people giving up a life of working for other people just to buy rubbish they don't need but everybody says they do; a life like Laozi and Zhuangzi describe.

I live in a town where drug abuse and stupid violence are on the increase and I reckon a simpler lifestyle with less consumerism, and hence less money and more self-reliance, might just be the panacea.

I also have a house on a few acres in a valley beside a creek, but unfortunately it gets two or three black frosts every July. It kills off the leaves of every plant and even the canetoads are snap frozen. That's not conducive to anything like self-sufficiency...

Off topic, I know, but now that it's in writing my dream might come true, LOL!

The last part makes me wish it were still possible to live a simple hunter/gatherer lifestyle, without any need at all for money or any of its equivalents.

Mair 2:3

"If there were no 'other', there would be no 'I'. If there were no 'I', there would be nothing to apprehend the `other: "This is near the mark, but I do not know what causes it to be so. It seems as though there is a True Ruler, but there is no particular evidence for Her. We may have faith in Her ability to function, but cannot see Her form. She has attributes but is without form. The hundred bones, the nine orifices, and the six viscera are all complete within my body. With which am I most closely identified? Do you favor all of them equally? Or are there those to which you are partial? Assuming that you treat them equally, do you take them all to be your servants? If so, are your servants incapable of controlling each other? Or do they take turns being lord and subject among themselves? If not, do they have a True Lord over them all? Whether or not we succeed in specifying His attributes has neither positive nor negative effect upon the truth of the Lord.

Once we have received our complete physical form, we remain conscious of it while we await extinction. In our strife and friction with other things, we gallop forward on our course unable to stop. Is this not sad? We toil our whole life without seeing any results. We deplete ourselves with wearisome labor, but don't know what it all adds up to. Isn't this lamentable? There are those who say that at least we are not dead, but what's the good of it? Our physical form decays and with it the mind likewise. May we not say that this is the most lamentable of all? Is human life really so deluded as this? Am I the only one who is so deluded? Are there some individuals who are not deluded?

NOTES -

5. Her. The Chinese pronoun lacks gender.
 

Mair 2:2

Great knowledge is expansive;
Small knowledge is cramped.

Great speech blazes brilliantly;
Small speech is mere garrulousness.

When people sleep, their souls are confused; when they awake,
their bodies feel all out of joint.

Their contacts turn into conflicts,
Each day involves them in mental strife.

They become indecisive, dissembling, secretive.

Small fears disturb them;
Great fears incapacitate them.

Some there are who express themselves as swiftly as the release of a crossbow mechanism, which is to say that they arbitrate right and wrong. Others hold fast as though to a sworn covenant, which is to say they are waiting for victory. Some there are whose decline is like autumn or winter, which describes their dissolution day by day. Others are so immersed in activity that they cannot be revitalized. Some become so weary that they are as though sealed up in an envelope, which describes their senility. Their minds are so near to death that they cannot be rejuvenated.

Pleasure and anger; sorrow and joy; worry and regret; vacillation and trepidation; diffidence and abandon; openness and affectedness. These are all like musical sounds from empty tubes, like fungi produced from mere vapors. Day and night they alternate within us, but no one knows whence they arise. Enough! Enough! The instant one grasps this, one understands whence they arise!

ON THE EQUALITY OF THINGS (Chapter 2)

The Great Clod, a metaphor for the Earth and the Way, is introduced. An extended discussion of self and other, right and wrong, affirmation and denial, ensues. Transcendent knowledge goes beyond all such dichotomies.

A Sir Motley of Southurb sat leaning against his low table. He looked up to heaven and exhaled slowly. Disembodied, he seemed bereft of soul. Sir Wanderer of Countenance Complete, who stood in attendance before him, asked, "How can we explain this? Can the body really be made to become like withered wood? Can the mind really be made to become like dead ashes? The one who is leaning against the table now is not the one who was formerly leaning against the table."

"Indeed," said Sir Motley, "your question is a good one, Yen. Just now, I lost myself Can you understand this? You may have heard the pipes of man, but not the pipes of earth. You may have heard the pipes of earth, but not the pipes of heaven."

"I venture", said Sir Wanderer, "to ask their secret."

"The Great Clod," said Sir Motley, "emits a vital breath called the wind. If it doesn't blow, nothing happens. Once it starts to blow, however, myriad hollows begin to howl. Have you not heard its moaning? The clefts and crevasses of the towering mountains, the hollows and cavities of huge trees a hundred spans around: they are like nostrils, like mouths, like ears, like sockets, like cups, like mortars, or like the depressions that form puddles and pools. The wind blowing over them makes the sound of rushing water, whizzing arrows, shouting, breathing, calling, crying, laughing, gnashing. The wind in front sings aiee and the wind that follows sings wouu. A light breeze evokes a small response; a powerful gale brings forth a mighty chorus. When the blast dies down, then all the hollows are silent. Have you not seen the leaves that quiver with tingling reverberations? "

"The pipes of earth," said Sir Wanderer, "are none other than all of the hollows you have described. The pipes of man are bamboo tubes arrayed in series. I venture to ask what the pipes of heaven are."

"As for the pipes of heaven," said Sir Motley, "the myriad sounds produced by the blowing of the wind are different, yet all it does is elicit the natural propensities of the hollows themselves. What need is there for something else to stimulate them?"

Notes -

1. Sir Motley. His name may alternatively indicate that he has a sternly disciplined personality .

2. mind. The word hsin means both "heart" and "mind." We may think of it as the heart-mind.

3. Yen. Yen was apparently the disciple's real name, Sir Wanderer his sobriquet.

4. something else. Heaven is not an external agency. Rather, it is innate within everything.

I don't see them as enlightened. I see them as hermits.

I have to find some time to sit under a tree and flip through the big three Dao books...

Somewhere in one of them, Zhuanzi most likely, there is something about the stupidity, for want of a better word, of cutting yourself off from the world around you.

It's school holiday time here and I really wish I could be stupid...

Don't tell the qigong instructors this, their marketing will hit rock bottom!

You don't see too many Chinese on the 'World's Oldest Person' list.

I'm sure there is something in the Leizi or Zhuangzi about the futility of trying to strive for immortality or extra longevity of the physical body. All the alchemy and other stuff attributed to Daoism has nothing to do with the Daoism expounded by Laozi or Zhuangzi. But Qigong couldn't hurt as long as you're not expecting some miraculous hocus-pocus to come from it. My opinion...

Mair's notes -

19. Master Hui. A friend and favorite philosophical sparring partner of Chuang Tzu, Hui Tzu was an important figure in the School of Names.

20. Viet, Ngwa. In Modem Standard Mandarin, Ngwa is pronounced Wu and Viet is pronounced Yiieh.

21. defeated them. Because his men used the ointment to protect their hands from getting chapped in the cold, wet weather.

Mair's notes -

16. Sung. In the central part of north China.

17. Viet. In the south of China. During Chuang Tzu's time, the people living here were not yet Sinicized.

18. Fen River. In Shansi province.

Mair's notes -

12. Chien Wu, Lien Shu. Two fictitious practitioners of the Way.

13. Chieh Yu. A legendary hermit of the state of Ch'u.

14. myriad things. This is a very important expression in early Chinese philosophy. "Myriad things" refers to all phenomenal existence. More literally, we might render wanwu as "the ten thousand entities." We should note that while wu is normally translated as "thing-: for consistency's sake, it also includes both the notion of "creature" and of "object."

15. Shun. Another sage-king of high antiquity.

Heres' Mair's notes for this section -

8. Yao. A sage-king of high antiquity.

9. all under heaven. A traditional expression referring to the Chinese empire (literally "heavenlsky-below") that occurs hundreds of times in the Chuang Tzu. In this translation, when considered collectively as "the world" or "the empire," it is grammatically treated as a singular noun phrase (as though it might be written "all-under-heaven"). When considered as the constituent elements, things, or men that go to make up the world or the empire, it is grammatically treated as a plural noun phrase.

10. Hsii Yu. A legendary hermit. His name might be interpreted as meaning "Promise Allow."

11. impersonator of the dead. See chapter 14, note 25. (Usually rendered as "sacrificial officiant, " the two graphs literally mean "corpse invoker.")

So do you think Chuang Tzu sees humans striving for longevity as futile? I'm trying to understand because if P'eng could cultivate to the point of living so long, why not others?

 

Or are these others perhaps "wannabes", for lack of a better word?

From my reading of the Daodejing and Zhuangzi, their main point is to not try to be something you are not; just be yourself. If you try being something you are not, then you are going against your own nature.

P'eng was supposedly an adept, he had an inherent ability, he was born with his longevity. A chapter of the Zhuangzi mentions that there are some things that are impossible to teach. You can get the basic idea from someone, but there is something you have to have within yourself to be able to achieve it perfectly. It's the story of the wheelwright. So even if P'eng left some writing to tell how he lived for so long, whatever he wrote wouldn't be the complete instructions. So how pathetic would it be to waste the few years you have trying to get more than you won't?

Here's Karcher's site -

http://www.ichinglivingchange.org/

Mair - 1:5

Master Hui said to Master Chuang, "The King of Wei presented me with the seeds of a large gourd. I planted them and they grew to bear a fruit that could hold five bushels. I filled the gourd with liquid but its walls were not strong enough for me to pick it up. I split the gourd into ladles but their curvature was so slight they wouldn't hold anything. Although the gourd was admittedly of huge capacity, I smashed it to bits because it was useless."

"Sir; ' said Master Chuang, "it's you who were obtuse about utilizing its bigness. There was a man of Sung who was good at making an ointment for chapped hands. For generations, the family occupation had been to wash silk floss. A stranger who heard about the ointment offered him a hundred pieces of gold for the formula. The man of Sung gathered his clan together and said to them, 'We have been washing silk floss for generations and have earned no more than a few pieces of gold. Now we'll make a hundred pieces of gold in one morning if we sell the technique. Please let me give it to the stranger: After the stranger obtained the formula, he persuaded the King of Ngwa of its usefulness. Viet embarked on hostilities against Ngwa, so the King of Ngwa appointed the stranger to the command of his fleet. That winter, he fought a naval battle with the forces of Viet and totally defeated them [because his sailors ' hands didn' t get chapped]. The king set aside a portion of land and enfeoffed him there.

"The ability to prevent chapped hands was the same, but one person gained a fief with it while the other couldn't even free himself from washing floss. This is because the uses to which the ointment was put were different. Now you, sir, had a five-bushel gourd. Why didn't you think of tying it on your waist as a big buoy so that you could go floating on the lakes and rivers instead of worrying that it couldn't hold anything because of its shallow curvature? This shows, sir, that you still have brambles for brains!"

Master Hui said to Master Chuang, "I have a big tree people call Stinky Quassia. Its great trunk is so gnarled and knotted that it cannot be measured with an inked line. Its small branches are so twisted and turned that neither compass nor L-square can be applied to them. It stands next to the road, but carpenters pay no attention to it. Now, sir, your words are just like my tree - big, useless, and heeded by no one."

"Sir;" said Master Chuang, "are you the only one who hasn't observed a wild cat or a weasel? Crouching down, it lies in wait for its prey. It leaps about east and west, avoiding neither high , nor low, until it gets caught in a snare or dies in a net. Then there is the yak, big as the clouds suspended in the sky. It's big, all right, but it can't catch mice. Now you, sir, have a big tree and are bothered by its uselessness. Why don't you plant it in Nevernever Land with its wide, open spaces? There you can roam in nonaction by its side and sleep carefreely beneath it. Your Stinky Quassia's life will not be cut short by axes, nor will anything else harm it. Being useless, how could it ever come to grief"

Mair - 1:4

A man of Sung who traded in ceremonial caps traveled to the state of Viet. But the people of Viet cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so the caps were of no use. Yao brought order to all the people under heaven and brought peace to all within the four seas. He went to distant Mount Kuyeh to visit the Four Masters. Upon returning to his capital on the north bank of the Fen River, he fell into a daze and forgot all about his empire.

Mair - 1:3

Chien Wu said to Lien Shu, "I have heard Chieh Yi speak. His words are impressive but not to the point. Once he goes off on a tangent, he never comes back. I was astounded by his words, which were limitless as the Milky Way. They were extravagant and remote from human experience."

"What did he say? " asked Lien Shu.

" `Far away on Mount Kuyeh there dwells a spirit man whose skin is like congealed snow and who is gentle as a virgin. He does not eat any of the five grains, but inhales the wind and drinks the dew. He rides on the clouds, drives a flying dragon, and wanders beyond the four seas. His spirit is concentrated, saving things from corruption and bringing a bountiful harvest every year.' Thinking this madness, I refused to believe what he said."

"Indeed! " said Lien Shu. "The blind cannot share in the display of pattern and ornament, the deaf cannot share in the sound of bells and drums. Not only are there physical blindness and deafness, they also exist on an intellectual plane. It would appear that Chieh Yii's words were directed at you. The spirit man is of such integrity that he mingles with the myriad things and becomes one with them. Worldly strife leads to chaos. Why should he exhaust himself with the affairs of all under heaven? Nothing can harm the spirit man. He would not be drowned in a flood that surges to heaven, nor would he be burned in a fierce drought that melts minerals and scorches the hills. One could mold a Yao or a Shun from his dust and residue. Why should he be willing to bother himself with such things?"

Mair - 1:2

Yao wished to abdicate his rulership of all under heaven to Hsŭ Yu, saying, "If one did not extinguish a candle when the sun and moon come out, wouldn't it be hard to discern its light? If one continues to irrigate the fields when the seasonal rains fall, wouldn't it have little effect upon the amount of moisture in them? Once you are established on the throne, master, all under heaven will be well ordered. Yet I am still the ruler and consider myself inadequate to the task. Allow me to hand over the empire to you."

"You are governing all under heaven; ' said Hsu Yu, "and the empire is already well ordered. If I were to replace you, would I be doing it for the name? A name is but an attribute of reality. Would I be doing it for the sake of attribution? The wren nests in the deep forest, occupying but a single branch. The mole drinks from the river, merely filling its little belly. Return, oh lord, and forget this business. I have no need for all under heaven! Even supposing that the cook were not attending to his kitchen, the impersonator of the dead would not leap over the pots and pans to take his place."

I agree. Though I think we'd do better to process the book chapter by chapter in devoted threads, as was the original intention. I'd imagine more interest/participation that way..?

 No worries. I'll set them out as in Mair's book. I'll try to add his notes to each thread by Saturday night.

Yes, that is one of the concepts offered.  Again, perspective based on their world view.

That's why chapter 17 is my favorite. It basically distills the entire book into one small block.

unfortunately not. like i said, in translation industry the groupthink reigns. Mair wanted to provide something new but it turned out same old. In general, while the recognized translators get the most of ZZ's text right like 75%, they certainly do not understand the overall meaning, and they certainly get 1/4 of the text wrong. The piece you posted contains  some more translating mistakes. i can correct those if there is interest.

dawei started the thread as a vehicle to examine Mair's translation and compare it to others if there is disagreement on his interpretation. I think if you have a disagreement with his interpretation you should jump in with it. Anyone bothering to read the thread would be interested.