Oneironaut

On 2/2/2021 at 6:00 PM, Nungali said:

gets slammed on back , cant move for 20 seconds wile the other tries to get in a position to do something  .... then as he pins him 1 ..... 2 ..... 

 

I can move again ! - throws him off .

 

man!   I didnt know Bollywood style 'professional ' world championship wrestling  had come so far ! 

 

 Over here when that stuff was popular , for some reason , a lot of kids from 'special school' ( intellectual disestablishes)  made up half the audience - they LOVED IT !    - I knew people that would go and deliberately  cheer the 'bad guy' .... which really infuriated  the ''special kids'  .            ( oh my what some people do for entertainment  ; teasing the  disabled at a  a  ' professional'  wrestling match   )

 

Oh wait !  I have been doing that here myself with Onionaught  .    

 

Coming from the guy with 4th grade grammar and even worse in the reading comprehension department. If I’m disabled and I can make a far more reasonable argument (and I have) then what does that make you? Really something for you to think about...

 

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(I'll stop now as I just saw he got a 'vacation'    ... I DID try to warn him about that )

 

 

That’s called censorship. Unfortunately it’s not equally applied. Can’t expect anything less from poor moderation. 

On 2/2/2021 at 5:42 PM, dwai said:

I guess the point I was trying to make is, that none of these martial arts, even these "so-called effective martial arts" look like how they do when performed stylistically (form). Everything happens fast, with practically no visible form. 

Taijiquan doesn't look like "taijiquan", Karate doesn't look like "Karate", Muay Thai doesn't look like "Muay Thai" and so on...

 

You keep telling yourself that. Whatever you need to tell yourself that prevents you from staying up at night. 

On 2/2/2021 at 5:20 PM, Nungali said:

below you comment  that :  

 " your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. "

 

And I stand by it 100% though it’s obviously not everyone but it’s enough to be a cause for concern.

 

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You know why they share them with me ?   Because they are not false assumptions  .

 

Wrong! 

 

Its because of group think among people who prefer to believe in martial fairy tales and anyone challenging those dreams is made out to be a threat. 

 

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YOU are the one making some rather silly basic mistakes here , and others can clearly see it . 

 

Please clarify 

 

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Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

If that were the case I wouldn’t be criticizing certain “martial” arts. 

 

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You will see all sorts of silly karate at 'higher levels ' thats my complaint about it , And the video I posted of that silly hikite movement done by  SENIORS , black belts , making a video to promote their style or technique .

 

Thats called a McDojo. 

 

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No, I am telling you hat you seem so stupid that you have now gone backwards in comprehension , just when you previously seemed to be half getting what I was saying .

 

There’s nothing to comprehend on your end. It’s just you making a pointless argument over a basic TMA drill. A former TMA drill that WILL be adapted to suit a dynamic situation. You were supposed to be the “expert” at this but here I am explaining it to you. In fact I’ve already explained it to you ages ago and you’re still bitching. 

 

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Which is , yet again ( for anyone that got confused by Oneironaut's  flapping about )

 

Maybe if you’d quit hitting the crack pipe things might be a little bit more understandable for you. 

 

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When defending ;

When the punchy guy punches, why does the one defending  fling  one arm out  first and not grab anything, and withdraw that arm while he is  blocking  the punch that is coming, then punch back and  withdraw the other arm .  if hikite is a grab and pull in for a punch, why do hikite while you do a block  ? 

 

You need to pay attention to your grammar. Did you pass the fourth grade?

 

Heres what though...

“Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .”

 

Does that sound familiar to you? You project it onto others but fail to apply this to yourself 

 

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When attacking :

Why, does punchy guy when attacking the other one , punch with one arm and draw the other arm and hand back to his hip, leaving his guard down and his head exposed ?  The punchy guy is initiating the attack , why pull his hand back as he punches , there was never any punch from the other to seize and pull back . And I am not talking about lone practice in the air , I am talking about two guys practising a techniques .

 

and I fail to see why , with the explained question and the video together , one can  not comprehend the question ?

 

There are many things you fail to see. Let’s start with the statement below:

 

“Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .”

 

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Again, you seem to have gone backwards - you seemed to be getting the point ... but nw you have reverted to what you saying pages back ; you are grabbing and pulling when punching .

 

Initially I said grabbing and pulling while blocking to off balance the attacker. You can set many things up here. 

 

If you have a free hand that isn’t blocking and can grab/pull the attacker towards you then you can apply tsuki if circumstances permit it. I remember saying that also.

 

Remember: Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

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I am asking why do the movement for every punch and even block when you are not grabbing at all .

 

get it yet ?

 

Seems you failed to get this:

 

Many martial artists realise that a formal practice will be adapted in a dynamic situation , but it seems you  are not one of them .

 

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Oh, sure there are .   Its these type of drills though that I am referring to , a bad drill gives bad habits ; drilling   punching  while you drop your guard is bad practice  ... any one knows that  .... except some of these karate guys .

 

Wait! Are you saying that these karate guys should also drop kata? 

 

The same block/chamber, punch/chamber sequence is repeated throughout many kata. Okinawan style karate has them in kata and we practiced them in Taekwondo as well. Are you saying that maybe they need to reduce them or get rid of it altogether? Perhaps even “modernize” karate a little bit more? 

 

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No , they are NOT   crazy assumptions that others here share with me .

 

Just the ones engaged in the group think. Group think isn’t good for you and it shows. 

 

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Unless you are going to postulate that  TDBs  is full of crazy people ... except you    

 

I think we established that multiple times unless you’re still hitting that crack pipe. Pay a little bit more attention. 

 

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I call that 'modern karate' .  Its for kids and sport . It isnt like  traditional old style karate that was used for self defence , fighting  and 'body guard ' work ( including minding the king ) .  Traditional style  ( 'seito' )  is deadly . 

 

Your definition of “modern karate” is 50 to 100 years behind and traditional style karate is no longer (for the most part) applicable in today’s world. Karate (some styles) have evolved and hopefully it will continue to.

 

Get with the program. 

 

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I could not give a flying f*** at the Moon about what you think anymore .  The explanation is written out here to help others try and decipher the mess you have made this topic into .

 

I’m sure the moon could give less of a flying f***. 

 

Don’t try gas lighting and pinning this onto me. You’re the one here spreading misinformation. The ones who are more rational and realistic in approach can figure out their own solution. They don’t need anyone on the internet (especially YOU out of all people) to give them any kind of “help”. Anyone with some sense can see right through your garbage. 

On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, dwai said:

But, on the street, will these techniques really look like they do in the ring?

 

Yes! 

 

Most MMA guys have horribly sloppy boxing and Muay Thai but in all fairness they aren’t strikers. They’re grapplers that picked up some striking. Very unrefined and ugly striking but the grappling element adds a new dimension of things to really worry about. 

 

The ones who have a strong or primary striking background do have technique that’s beautiful to look at and is reminiscent of their art however being beautiful doesn’t always win fights. 

On 2/2/2021 at 5:15 PM, Nam Sao said:

 

There are numerous problems with this way of seeing things, to name a few:

 

For one, you start out talking about tie "martial" aspect of martial arts, but by the end of your post you focus solely on unarmed combat. Martial arts covers far more than unarmed combat. 

 

That’s an unwarranted assumption on your behalf. I’m aware of weapons training being a form of martial art. No one ever said that it isn’t. I will say that learning fencing is very impractical in modern times. Not only that but you can’t master it all. You can’t decide to be a fencer today, a kick boxer tomorrow and then a wrestler by Monday. Thats trying to learn everything and in the end you will have learned nothing. 

 

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Second, competitive fighting is not the only indicator of the effectiveness of a martial art.

 

Yes it is. It’s a large element that determines its overall effectiveness. The other part is effective technique which is typically forged under pressure testing conditions. How else will you know if something works?

 

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Why do competitive fighters generally beat non-competitive fighters? It's pretty simple: 

 

Read above. 

 

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There is a world of difference between those who train to compete and those who  don't. Whether it's kung fu, bjj, boxing, muay thai, etc...none of it works as well in a cage or competitive setting unless you train for that. 

 

Fixed. 

 

This is generally true but it can’t be equally applied to everything. Some martial arts work. Others don’t. 

 

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Also, comparing martial arts only in light of competitive fighting has its flaws. Some arts simply have never had a competitive format because they were never intended for that purpose. Using boxing as an example, it has been trained as a competitive sport for at least centuries (like far longer). Something like Wing Chun on the other hand, they're only entering that world now. And like with many beginnings, there's going to be trial and error. 

 

And don’t expect Wing Chun to go anywhere even under a competitive format. There’s a reason why Bruce Lee (who wasn’t even much of a competitor by the way) dropped the majority of what he learned in Wing Chun and took up boxing, savate and wrestling instead. 

 

The whole “it’s not the art but the fighter” thing has been beaten to death. No two arts are created equal. You need to realize the errors of your argument when you try to put all martial arts on equal footing. It’s far more complicated than what you’re making it out to be. There’s many different martial arts yet so few of them work under fight situations. 

 

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Another issue is that most self defense situations are not at the level of competitive fighting.

 

I’ve already addressed that pages earlier. 

 

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It's funny how some people act like it's generally competitive fighters that are starting fights in bars and trying to rob people.

 

Some of them. Not all of them. I think I also pointed this out. 

 

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One may not be able to win a fight in a ring or cage, but if they can knock out the angry drunk at the bar or the crackhead trying to rob them, then their martial arts skill is indeed extremely useful for self defense. 

 

I guess we can call weight lifting, body weight exercises and cardio training a martial art since being in more athletic condition does give one a significant advantage in a confrontation against untrained adversaries. 

 

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Finally, I think it's safe to say that whether it's intentional or not, you have a strawman view of stuff like Chinese martial arts. For example, you have yet to explain why you insist that the Tai Chi guy that Xu Xiaodong beat up was an actual master. If you sincerely are able to look at the supposed "kung fu masters" that Xu Xiaodong has beaten and conclude that those were legitimate masters, you have an unrealistically low standard for those arts (and a low standard for research, at least on this topic, if you made this conclusion while never finding out about the Sifus of these supposed masters).

 

How is it a straw man view when we can find mountains of evidence to back up what I’m saying? 

 

Saying that those weren’t legitimate masters is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Why hasn’t there been any “legitimate kung fu masters” that descended from some mountain and taught these MMA guys a lesson? Is their kung fu too deadly for the streets? 

 

In their defense however I have seen a few Sanda guys do okay in professional MMA so there could be some potential. 

On 2/2/2021 at 2:01 PM, dwai said:

Now that the noisy element has been disabled, I am curious about the phenomenon of always reducing everything down to cage fighting -- why is that so?

 

You mean the noisy element of your cognitive dissonance?

 

Everything doesn’t always have to be reduced to cage fighting. For the past few decades it’s been a litmus test to weed out the garbage. 

 

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Is it simply a case of lack of exposure to real violence? I suspect most of these MMA-enthusiasts(TMA vs MMA) have never really seen violence, and view the world from the prism of their limited (or negligible) youtube black-belts.

 

Are you saying that MMA and boxing isn’t real violence? 

 

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Anyone who's ever been in a real fight will know that none of the so-called "effective" cage-ready martial arts are really very useful in the real world, where there is an assailant (usually there are more than one) who is hell-bent on causing grievous injury (with weapons etc). Movements have to be minimalistic, direct, non-telegraphed, and effective. Which is sort of the anti-thesis of cage-fighting, which involves massively telegraphed punches, kicks, takedowns, etc, etc. 

 

So you’re one of those guys. Your martial art is too dangerous for the cage or the ring and all that other weak stuff. 

 

I hope you realize that anything a trained cage fighter can do in a cage, under a specific ruleset, he will be able to do even better against multiple assailants in the streets. Their best bet would be to bring weapons. 

 

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Self-defense and sport-fighting have very dramatic and significant differences. 

 

To a degree. Let’s not be dishonest by exaggerating these differences. 

13 hours ago, Nam Sao said:

Notice how it's the Kalaripyattu guys that have to prove themselves in a kick boxing gym. 

 

You can't classify it as a "martial" art if it's unproven to work. It may be an art but there isn't any thing particularly "martial" about it. 

 

I'm not the biggest proponent of cage fighting but in the earlier days we got a good idea of what works in a live combat scenario and what doesn't. This kalaripyattu stuff can be thrown in the same bin as the other "martial" arts that don't work. 

 

"It's not the style but the fighter" while true, cannot be liberally applied across all styles. If the "martial" art doesn't work then it doesn't work. Period. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Nam Sao said:

Why not kick boxers grab swords or staffs and go into a Kalari? 

 

Oh wait, like most things in life, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

 

This is a clear admission of it's ineffectiveness in unarmed combat. 

 

Take it out with the fencers.

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

The thing about giving a long rope is, one could use it to climb out of a deep hole they've dug themselves into... or...

 

How poetic. You hanging by your own rope of false wisdom and pseudo enlightenment. You won't be "hanging out" by yourself for too long. Ngali may be your ideal companion. 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:23 PM, Nungali said:

Take his advice while he is just posting as a member , before he goes into moderator mode  ... and when that happens , you will see how fast  you can loose your style  of 'argument' here .

 

He has no argument. My "style" of argument is nothing fancy. Just be honest and straight forward. Say it like it is which is obviously very unpopular here. 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:18 PM, Nungali said:

Well I thought you did boxing .

 

I thought this was already answered ages ago. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:18 PM, Nungali said:

 

Thats why I asked about if you ever heard 'hands up' coming from your corner . and that was in relation NOT to whether we WHERE taking about boxing or not , but the the  silliness  of withdrawing the other hand in hikite while punching, when you are practising against another and you DONT actually grab them and pull them in , thus leaving that side of your head unguarded .

 

why has this been so hard to understand what I am saying . I have explained it about 4 different ways , even with video demo

 

 

STOP! 

 

The world is a better place without any of your "explanations"

On 1/31/2021 at 10:11 AM, forestofemptiness said:

Every "fight" story I've heard was either 1) a fight they picked or escalated or 2) a fight they could have avoided. I've been told that in my area, MMA people like to go to bars and try to start fights. I don't hang out at bars, so I don't know. But ask yourself--- how many mature adults actually get into fights? Not many. 

 

The answer to that is rather straight forward. It's because they're stupid hence their career choice. They don't ALL fall under this camp (there are exceptions) but so many do.  

 

On 1/31/2021 at 10:11 AM, forestofemptiness said:

So if I were to generalize, most people who are using their MA skills are picking fights. The same thing happens with the military. When you give a person a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Good fighters, IME, develop a type of violent mentality. However, a good martial artist will develop awareness and calmness. 

 

Part of this could also be a result of CTE. Now combine that with a really bad ego and you have a recipe for disaster. 

 

It's about finding balance. You need a martial art that actually works in practice but also one that won't encourage you to destroy your mind, body and cultivate a cave man mentality. 

 

The martial arts world is very polarized. On one end you have those who promote arts that are really just that. ART. Nothing martial about them and they could only give one a false sense of confidence and possibly get one hurt. On the other end you have martial arts such as boxing that creates phenomenal fighters but this acquisition of martial ability comes at the expense of your health. There is no balance here. 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and when I explain something and show how you where wrong ... you just ignore that and witch to some other   thing .

 

And that's the issue. YOU explaining things. For 50 years in the martial arts you're really bad at explanations. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and again

 

Oh ... back to step 2 again  ?

 

 step 1 ; never  a horse stance  used in MMA . ( I show him vid that shows they do  )  

 

step 2   " that isnt a proper horse stance !   '  .

 

(  I explain how the guy on vid addresses  this at the beginning )

 

 Step 3 .  Gives new opinion that has now morphed into what I and the guy on the vid said .  

 

(so I point that out . )   

 

Step 4 . You affirm that MMA techniques are being used in an MMA vid I post  ( well done ! )  and then revert back to your step 1

 

 

 

Anybody could go and make a video and extrapolate some sort of squatting posture as a horse stance. American football players get into a "horse stance". Wrestlers get into a "horse stance". 

 

Where is the martial practicality in using a static horse stance (the same horse stance used in martial arts drills) in a dynamic fight? Refrain from pointing to that ridiculous video. It hasn't and won't prove you correct on anything.  

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

YOU agree with my ridiculous scenario ?   people practice bunkai with a part real techique they do with some body parts and visualise a techniques they going to do with other body parts at the same. 

 

About time you admitted you have not got a clue  about the answer to my question about hikite  ... which, by now, you have probably forgot

 

You're speaking about beginners techniques and making all this mention about how it likely wouldn't work in real life scenarios (and I'm in agreement with you). Your 50 years of martial arts experience forgot to remind you that there are variations and more dynamic uses of these exact same drills and techniques. Do I have to remind you that you'll see this at higher levels? Unlike you I wasn't "assuming" that this is all there is to that drill when it comes to the chambered hand.

 

Even if the most instinctive reaction for someone would be a punch under these circumstances are you trying to tell me that traditional martial artists are so stupid that they can't pick up on nuances, make even the slightest modifications to their guard, their footwork, their blocks, parries, angling, their body positioning so that they can hit and not be hit under similar or even varying attacks? I don't know what answers YOU are looking for (answers that you obviously don't have yourself) but for me hikite is very simple. Grab/pull for off balancing an adversary. 

 

In the beginning levels of taekwondo we practiced all these combat forms (YES! They use the word "combat") and all these different drills and repeated them until we were bored to tears. It was the high level instructors that brought these things to life including the drill that you've obviously figured out. While the karate/taekwondo ways of this specific drill may be effective at higher levels I think there are more immediate ways of achieving the same end goal of neutralizing that situation.

 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

So, hiw come you got so 'uppity' when I suggested the same thing   about it making  ' absolutely no sense '

 

For the reasons stated above. I never claimed nor believed at any point to have it "all figured out". That's your argument based on your crazy assumptions and false generations that others in here obviously share with you. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

More diversions and not answering the question

 

There is no diversion. I gave you a clear and direct answer. You didn't like the answer and invented things about me diverting the topic. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

and this whole issue about America not invading Okinawa is pure stupidity and obstinacy on your part ,

 

Please refer us back to where I said that the Americans did not invade Okinawa. 

 

You accuse others of paraphrasing, purposely misunderstanding or mis-wording you but it's obvious that you're just projecting your own faults onto others. I don't need to rip any pages out of your book. I'd rather just be straight forward and honest. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

Come back and try a different approach with me and I will explain it to you .

 

Save it. I think I've had enough with your "explanations". It's not conducive to anything of value. 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

BTW, it has been clear for a while now, that you’ve come to “discuss” something with an obvious chip on your shoulder. For those of us who can see through your bluster it is clear that you don’t really know much in practical terms, but certainly have a lot of strong opinions. 

 

Chip on my shoulder? Yeah sure. 

 

It's become rather obvious that your newfound clarity is neither true nor reliable. I can ask you if you're trying to convince me, yourself (or others) but I'm not expecting an honest answer out of you. It's become obvious that it's something you have keep telling yourself so you can sleep better at night. 

 

As I said earlier. Take your best "fighters" from kalaripayattu and bring them into a kick boxing gym. See where that goes....

On 1/28/2021 at 4:27 AM, freeform said:

Control is a funny word... For instance controlling water - you certainly can’t control it in the same way as you could control a brick for instance.

 

You want a brick on your table? You pick it up and move it. You want it under the table? You pick it up and put it there.

 

Try doing that with water...

 

With water everything you do is indirect... you work on plumbing, you work on containers - and you always let water do it’s own thing.
 

So it’s similar with Qi. 
 

For stilling the mind for instance - you don’t need to do anything... simply clearing the river beds will calm the mind (remember Qi is the higher mind). Once you’ve created the ‘container’ for the Qi in your belly... once you’ve cleared the path for it to sink, your mind will naturally quiet down of its own accord.

 

When you’re full of Qi it feels like you’re just back from a long holiday - completely relaxed, vital, full of good mood and nothing bothers you.

 

Pretty much what the person in the link below is stating.

 

https://www.learnjikidenreiki.com/post/a-question-of-reiju-attunements

 

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Most people are meditating while stressed, depleted, anxious and addicted to stimulation... and when they look inside they find even more garbage - and the stress increases.

 

You described me in a single sentence. 

 

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Secondly Qi can act as a sort of fuel... instead of reaching a kind of nihilistic emptiness in advanced meditation, with Qi, one reaches a stillness out of which radiates a bright light...

 

I hear reiki teachers (from authentic lineages) say "you are the great bright light" or something along those lines. I guess this is what they're referring to. 

 

https://ihreiki.com/blog/the_great_bright_light/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

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Healing in yourself usually happens automatically with long term practice. Sometimes you need extra help.
 

When you’re advanced, you can emit Qi from your hands and heal others.

 

What is your opinion on healing systems that cater to absolute beginners? The bolded parts in the quoted text below also makes me very interested in what might be possible later down the road if I decide to work with other systems.  

 

gestating the ‘Spiritual Embryo (ling-tai) of immortality, attaining the enlightened state of mind and achieving the body of pure light known as the ‘Rainbow Body,’

 

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The Chinese word for Reiki is Ling Chi

Ling-chi (spiritual energy). Ling-chi is the subtlest and most highly refined of all the energies in the human system and the product of the most advanced stages of practice, whereby the ordinary energies of the body are transformed into pure spiritual vitality. This type of highly refined energy enhances spiritual awareness, improves all cerebral functions, and constitutes the basic fuel for the highest level of spiritual work, such as gestating the ‘Spiritual Embryo (ling-tai) of immortality, attaining the enlightened state of mind and achieving the body of pure light known as the ‘Rainbow Body,’ which serves as a vehicle of entry into the astral realms of existence beyond the material world. ~ Daniel Reid ~ A Complete Guide to Chi Gung

 

 

 

Source: https://ihreiki.com/blog/tribute_to_li_ying_my_taoist_teacher/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

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Trying to reverse engineer things generally gets you nowhere. And often it’s dangerous. These things are developed by thousands of great minds over many hundreds of generations, carefully refining the process generation after generation... Are you smarter and more insightful than that? Can you reverse engineer the whole of physics? Or the whole field of mathematics?  I certainly am not  

 

So although you’re not ‘locked in’ to anything - trying to make your own path to enlightenment is like taking your own made up route to the top of the Everest... 

 

Good point. There are two systems that I'm very interested in (one is mentioned above) but I'm also hoping that they can be combined into one at a later more advanced stage in this journey. At least the reiki system I like is very light and "minimalistic". Since the reiki energy comes from the heavens and downward I guess it's a "water path" too even though it's more rooted in Japanese tantric Buddhism.. I'm not sure. I'll just start practicing again and see where this takes me. 

On 1/30/2021 at 2:05 AM, Nungali said:

Do you still practice and if so what ?    Because its a little unclear wther you just had a few lessons or stuck at these long enough to gain valid experience .

 

I haven't stepped foot into a dojang in decades. Don't plan on it either. 

 

Haven't done boxing since COVID hit and I haven't done judo in several years and I miss it a ton. I want to go back into both but we'll see if this pandemic will finally start to die out a little bit.

On 1/30/2021 at 1:25 AM, Nungali said:

It probably  seems that way to you .  I can tell because when I read some of your responses below , it seems you haven't a clue what I mean .

 

It's not that it seems that way. It's that it IS that way. I'm just calling it what it is.

 

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Here is an example ,   what you are responding to is a response to what you said .   You might not 'need it' .   Just like I might not NEED you to respond to what I say , but you do .

 

'Such is life '  .

 

You were the one making assumptions. You needed to be corrected and received a response.

 

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Ummm , no . You misread again , as I said above .    What you are saying here is a response to my  ; " Regardless of 'style' , such a person who had   (ie. my previous ; '   more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics )  would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

So  if you read what I wrote (and following previous comments that this response was written in relation to ie Q ; ' What makes good Kalaripayattu   ) I was writing ; '  a person ( a  Kalaripayattu ) who had    more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics   would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not make a very good Kalaripayattu. ' And I believe that applies to any style (as well as  Kalaripayattu .

 

But if you think this is erroneous , then it conflicts with what you are saying below  about fighting experience and training . And it might help to understand why YOU are not being understood when you declare this is what you have been saying all along .

 

All heart and no skills will get you knocked out. Why waste a a natural fighter and confine him to something that doesn't work (kalaripayattu)?

 

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Agreed !  But  ...    Taking Ueshiba's view,  and  in my experience,   one can do effective martial arts with a haracentric view !  That's gotta be even more extreme than a mere geocentric one !  That is ' when someone seizes my wrist , I do not circle around them , I stand still and rotate the whole Universe around my  hara .'

 

I have yet to see functional aikido. Some people mention "pre-war aikido" and how it was very effective but I have my doubts. The aikido I've seen is really flowery and something that goes in the useless "martial" arts bin.

 

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Close,  that isn't actually what I was 'trying to do '  .... although the 'box' part is right .

 

Its more;  I see YOU in the box already ... and me   

 

 

 

 

You need a more constructive way to deal with hallucinations. Poor thing...

 

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yeah, thats good .  Nothing to do about what  I was complaining about though .

 

You were making references to knife attacks. I think goshin jutsu takes a very distant third place to having a fire arm. Not finding yourself under such circumstances takes first place.

 

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What ! You said you dont see horse stance it in MMA . I posted a vid on how you do see it .  With an explanation about peoples confusion about it as a prelude in the vid .

 

Now you respond to that by citing   basically the same as  what they guy in the vid and  I, myself previously said .

 

MMA techniques are being used. These guys probably never got into a static horse stance like traditional martial artists do. 

 

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You are doing it again !

 

I posted a vid of TWO GUYS drilling with each other .  When you practice alone you are visualising it !

 

Are you suggesting that the guys in the vid are part visualising and part doing it ? 

 

Could be possible that they were partly visualizing it. Why don't you make better use of your expertise and explain the purpose behind this technique?

 

In taekwondo we did the exact same drill. The difference there was that we would turn the blocking arm clockwise wise with the attackers arm and use the chambered hand to punch. Even back then it made absolutely no sense to stand in front of an attacker with a raised arm and with the other hand retracted all the way back.

 

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DUDE , are claiming to have done boxing ? !  Did you ever hear a voice off in your corner  yelling " Hands  up ! Hands UP ! "  ?

 

DUDE, we weren't talking about boxing!

 

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or do you have trouble responding to comments that need to be understood in relation to what THEY are responding to ?

 

I gave you a clear and direct response. You just didn't like it. That's YOUR business so keep your emotions in check. 

 

The only logical reason to chamber your hand during that specific drill is to simulate a grab (in the dojang the person doing the downward strike was simulating a knife attack) and from there we throw a punch. Thats at the green belt level if I remember correctly. The more advanced students had a variety of ways to respond smoothly and quickly to control the attacker through grappling, knee strikes and throws. Really cool stuff. 

 

The chambered hand needs to be doing something. Grabbing the attacker is the only logical conclusion as the person on the defensive end DOES NOT want to get clocked. 

 

 

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Oh , sorry I must be confused again .

 

Believe me, I know

 

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But you seemed to have interpreted  that in your own ways .

 

Check your wording. Or do you paraphrase yourself?

 

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Out of existence like a ;   "  a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say."  ?

 

Sounds about right.

 

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This part of  our argument  was never about if America was directly at war or not it was about Okinawans feeling pissed at Americans for bombing and invading them .

 

Now I REALLY think you cant follow a thread .  Or even understand what people are REALLY saying .

 

I'd venture to say that you have  such 'efficient ' blinkers on that  you cant help seeing things as the way YOU want them to be .

 

- probably fuelled by what you are holding onto from the past , which you didnt address back then , as you admitted in your first post her , when you decided to  challenge me  . 

 

 

Dont be silly .

 

and .. you are paraphrasing again .  I bet you would get  a surprise to go back and read what I DID say about this .

 

I said invaded Okinawa  .... not a 'war between' .  See how you change things ?

 

When you say "The system was taught  by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans  to the Americans that defeated them" it implies that the war was DIRECTLY between the US and Okinawa. This is poor grammar on your part.  

 

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Do you have any of those properties I could look at  ?   

 

https://www.amazon.com/Astronaut-Relaxing-Beach-Framed-Poster/dp/B07C3CHBX5

 

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Nope . you just made that up .   They had many concepts of sparing . And to claim they didnt is worthy of a LOL

 

But you just made up your own claim that you are lolling at   ....    LOL .

 

I didn't make that up. These are claims being made on obscure martial arts forums. The same forums your favorite karate historian gets his sources from.

 

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 The claim was  about  the particular method  of fighting that got developed for sports karate , not  too suggest that no sparring was ever done in japan before the French Savate team got there or that  the  " Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived . "  

 

- see what you do ?

 

Ask your karate historian to cite his sources. It's only a matter of time until his claims devolve into what I "made up" moments back.

 

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.Now before you go off on one of your misunderstanding again  ...  I am not supporting the '  Karate nerd' here , I am just clarifying that which you are changing  -   in your  attempt to make your argument look better .   Or its that misreading thing again .

 

I don't have to make my argument look better. Your karate historians sources will do it for me. 

 

 

.

.

On 1/17/2021 at 1:18 PM, dwai said:

 

 

Pehlwani looks very interesting. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

.... Oh ,  Mr O  never came back to tell us what   martial art he practices and where he got all his experience and knowledge from .

 

 

I studied taekwondo as a kid. One of my instructors was a competitor in taekwondo and was also a 3rd degree black belt in shotokan karate.

I began boxing over a decade ago but I don't compete. I've also done judo in the past. Through judo I also had a decent amount of experience in Brazilian jujutsu. You could say my training in shotokan and Brazilian jujutsu were more "informal" but I did gain some knowledge and there's considerable overlap with the arts I was mainly practicing.

 

I'm a student of the game. I will never call myself an expert, a master or claim to know it all. Sometimes things just need to be called out.

 

What have you practiced other than stick tapping? 

I already see some people attempting to conceal the Asian origins of the kicks in savate or certain people trying to say that karate is filipino or others saying that karate stole one of it's old stances from bare knuckle boxing. The internet is quite the never ending black hole.

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 3:59 PM, forestofemptiness said:

 

Where is everyone living that they need a high level of skill in unarmed fighting?

 

They don't! But they also don't need "martial" arts that instills a false sense of confidence.

 

Martial arts may not be for everyone but getting a little bit of exercise and having fun with some light, friendly sparring while not trying to hurt one another could be a way of helping people be healthy. 

 

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Is there a weapons free island or zone like in all the 1980's martial arts movies?

 

Not that I know of. But in how many parts of the "civilized" world can one carry sharp objects or a firearm? Even in those places where you may be able to you can't always rely on having them. 

 

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Or is this for secret underground bloodsport tournaments? 

 

I don't encourage this kind of primitive, unintelligent behavior. 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:17 PM, Nungali said:

 

A nd the same reasons you 'know' everything  

 

Are you paraphrasing? Point out exactly when I said I "know" everything. My powerful memory and values disagree with you. 

 

"in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

 

- Shunryu Suzuki

 

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Its pretty simple to comprehend and any one else here could comprehend it ;   a better fighter will be more experienced in fighting and training, building up strength, endurance, innovation and tactics . They have much more chance of winning than one that dooesnt .

 

You're making up non existent arguments, projecting things that have no basis in reality (hint: they only exist in your own head) and going off on these long winded "explanations" about.... nothing really. 

 

I never needed you explaining the difference between what truly makes a fighter and what doesn't. You don't have a monopoly in expertise on such a simple concept. 

 

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Regardless of 'style' , such a person wh did that would make a good Kalaripayattu and one that does not would not amke a very good Kalaripayattu.

 

This is very cliche and erroneous. Very dangerous thinking because all styles are NOT created equal. People who train in ineffective styles quickly get a reality check when revealed to martial arts that actually work. 

 

Wasn't it Bruce Lee who said that a person with 6 months of boxing and/or wrestling can defeat a martial artist with decades of experience? The same Bruce Lee who has abandoned most of Wing Chun but only kept a few key concepts that he could apply. If Wing Chun worked to create actual fighters he would of never had to look at boxing or wrestling. Bruce Lee himself wasn't exactly a fighter but he had a keen understanding of taking what is useful and discarding the rest.

 

Kalaripayattu offers much less than Wing Chun to create fighters. I encourage you to walk into a good kick boxing gym and show Kalaripayattu to experienced fighters. When they tell you it's trash (and the honest ones will) tell these fighters exactly what you're telling me. Give them a lecture about how they don't understand fighting and that they think they know everything. How could they possibly talk down on something that they never trained in? 

 

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I am starting to  agree with others observations here that you are trolling .

 

If trying to put flowery "martial" arts on equal footing with martial arts that are truly effective in real time combat isn't trolling then I don't know what is.

 

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Well, its your money, you can waste it how you want I suppose . However , your lack of sensible betting doent prove anything !

 

If you're THAT confident then back up your statements with something to support it. I already know you're not the type. You're just a miserable, formless entity floating in virtual space with a big mouth and a whole lot of useless, illogical things to say.

 

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This was your response to my " Thats no proof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely  'proof' by personal assertion  ."

 

so to counter that , you personally assert that there is evidence        

 

Back to what I said earlier. Walk into a kick boxing gym and show them kalaripayattu. Better yet... bring in "fighters" of that art and politely ask them to spar. You'll get a first hand experience of my evidence.

 

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More of your 'facts' eh ?    More generalised facts that have no room for the skills of the individuals  or   other conditions

 

You mean the same facts encouraging taking what works and leaving out what's useless. There's no room for outdated methods that might have worked back in a time where people had a flat earth cosmology or a geocentric model of the universe. There's a reason why certain things generally fall out of favor.

 

There's no room for learning complicated arts that take decades to learn and the techniques are ultimately useless. Also, the more complicated something is the more likely one is to make a mistake. I didn't create these generalizations. The same "martial arts" that you're such a proponent of created it. 

 

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times"

 

- Bruce Lee

 

True refinement of skills leaves plenty of room for many things.  

 

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You know so little and generalise so much , one has to assume you  are fairly young  and inexperienced

 

You're trying so hard to fit me into your little box and it's not exactly a right fit.

 

 

 

 

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Errrmmm , of course  you will respond like this 

 

'But that isnt a 'proper' horse stance ! '         The first part of video explains all that . I am wondering if you know the value of using hirse stance within a set of dynamic movements , in real application , or you use it like those guys in the above karate 'demo' would .

 

here is your argument ;  You never see a guy in a deep perfectly aligned horse stance , as practised statically and by oneself,  during an MMA match that is dynamic moving and where anything can happen or change or shift around . It is suggested that is because  MMA is dynamic and is a fight between two people and the stance is adapted ,then when this is  shown  you complain that  its not a horse stance that is  deep, perfectly aligned horse stance, as practised statically and by oneself .

 

WOW  !

 

The horse stance is probably great for training strength and flexibility at best and just as an isometric training at worse. During certain situations it's just natural to get in it even without any training in karate. I see you're the one making faulty generalizations. 

 

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how does returning your hand to your hip bring the opponent off balance  IF you have not grabbed anything with it  ? ! 

 

You're visualizing it. Similar to how one visualizes an opponent in shadow boxing except you're simulating a grabbing motion.

 

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What those karate styles that are changing  are doing is going back and adopting some of the old original teachings and styles . How many of them have 'gone back to Okinawa'  to develop their own skill or styles ?

 

Many have also went to China in more recent times to bring back whatever few functional techniques they could find. 

 

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Thing is karate DID devolve into a monolithic style and that was lead by JKA (Japan karate federation ).   You dont seem to realise that my criticisms  are due to me involved  IN karate , personally for decades . I am not some Indian MA guy or a Kung fuer  trying to discredit a different art .

 

It's the furthest thing from a monolithic style. There's so many different styles out there. Hundreds, possibly even thousands of them. That could be a good thing but it could also be a bad thing. It would be better to have fewer but highly functional and adaptable styles.

 

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I claimed a more experienced and trained  person was more likely to win over one not expereinced or trained  ,  and that applies to any style or tradition .

 

I've been saying the same thing this entire time.

 

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Pffft !  I can back up everyone of them and show others opinion and research that does likewise .

 

I bet I can prove them wrong and out of existence.

 

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Stop being silly !  Are you claiming that Americans never invaded Okinawa ? That they never occupied Okinawa ?   That Okinawans never fought against them in their homeland ? That American serviceman stationed in Okinawa after the invasion never studied MA from the locals ?   Thats what I am talking about and you know it !  By trying to counter my facts and claiming I am lying  and " intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". in this regard   by citing that

 

" Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. " is stupid and ridiculous and clearly the work of a troll .

 

My position still holds true. The Americans were NOT directly at war with the Okinawans. The purpose of the invasion was to reach the Japanese mainland and the Okinawans were made afraid of the Americans by the Imperial Japanese military feeding them propaganda about how the Americans were going to torture them. The Okinawans were afraid and were used as cannon fodder by the imperial military. 

 

You worded things in a way that suggested it was a war between the US and Okinawa. We both know that isn't true. 

 

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Its not history ... its an 'interesting coincidence'  that before savate demo in japan karate did not have those kicks and after it , all of a sudden they did have them . Okinawans never kicked like that and THEY got a huge portion of their stuff from China .

 

It's a rather bizarre and inaccurate claim to say that mawashi geri was "stolen" from the French. Care to point out your historical "coincidences" to see how it easily falls apart when its challenged? 

 

Mawashi Geri was imported from Japan back into Okinawa because it's so effective. I could be wrong on this part but what the Okinawans got from the Chinese appears to be a close quarter fighting style of karate with low kicks.

 

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Possibly that is wherr Savate got it from.

 

After traveling to all these places (China, Korea, Thailand) where kicking is part of the martial cultures they coincidentally bring kicking back to France. The Savateurs are not giving any credit back to these other different places but for some reason no one is quick to point fingers and accuse them of plagiarizing techniques that don't belong to them. Better to look to pseudo historians on obscure forums and YouTube videos based on inaccurate information and invent things to spark controversy.

 

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but that doesnt mean that it cold not have gone through savate to Japanese karate .

 

This is called bad inferencing. 

 

The Japanese invaded korea and occupied it in the early 1900's. Don't you think they could've gained exposure to high kicking styles there? To my knowledge Kung Fu doesn't have round house kicks in their manuals either but they'll tell you they've always been kicking high. Go tell the shaolin kung fu guys they stole their round house kicks or other high kicks from savate. 

 

Yoshitaka Funakoshi (he's not even a Japanese) is the guy being accused of being so impressed by savate and a French influenced Japanese military that he "stole" the training methodology which included the kicks found in savate.  So you could say the Okinawans stole from Savate and to be brutally honest this story is completely asinine. 

 

There were many Japanese karateka traveling to China to learn techniques between 1920 to around the time Funakoshi passed away so saying that Japanese karate got it's kicks from savate is as logical as being offered beach front property on the moon. I reject the claims because it belongs in the garbage. 

 

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As I just said , a huge element of  'Chuan fa ' passed into Okinawan MA   and they didnt have kicks like that .  So much so that karate meant 'Chinese hand ' / boxing .  Japan would refuse to recognise anything they stole and adapted after WWII as anything but Japanese .

 

Isn't this a form of generalizing? Tadashi Nakamura and many other accomplished Japanese karate practitioners acknowledge the shaolin roots of karate. Many even buy into myths about Bodhidharma bringing in and teaching kung fu to the shaolin monks. I lost count of the number of Japanese karate sensei's who would tell you these stories. 

 

Mas Oyama was a Korean man and he believed in authentic Japanese Budo. Would he fall under your generalizations too?

 

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They changed the meaning of karate and adapted other of their MA into it , like movement and footwork and body posture   for the use of certain weapons  and they certainly where not going to admit any Chinese or  French influence .

 

According to your sources the Japanese didn't understand the concept of sparring until the French arrived LOL. Only problem with this argument is that the Japanese sword fighting arts have been using wooden swords to spar with long before the French ever stepped foot in Japan. Shotokan is influenced from Japanese sword fighting arts. In Taekkyeon sparring has always existed and its far more likely that high kicks in karate partially came from there. 

 

There was/is no French influence in karate. Those kicks already existed in asia.

14 hours ago, freeform said:

My favourite analogy for how qigong works is gardening related.

 

What we want to do is dig a channel for the water to flow of its own accord.
 

‘Digging the channel’ is working on quite physical (though unusual) aspects of the body.
 

What you know of as meridians are actually running along a ‘riverbed’ of physical soft tissue channels (akin to fascia) - which are the Jing Jin lines.

 

So we start qigong by working on clearing, strengthening and interconnecting these river beds so that the water (Qi) flows down the correct routes smoothly and of its own accord.

 

No need to push or pull the water itself... just clear the channel and the water will move by it’s self, at it’s own pace.

 

So yes - the answer is doing the forms ‘correctly’.

 

Though ‘correctly’ means different things to different teachers.
 

There are nuanced internal mechanics and principles we must follow to do it actually correctly.

 

You'll often see someone doing pretty simple, easy looking movements - but they’re dripping in sweat and their body trembling with the effort... that’s often an indication that the correct principles are being put into action.

 

If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening.
 

The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout.
 

The vast majority of what I see the well known teachers teaching is just this type of choreography sadly. 
 

But these days, more and more genuine teachers are surfacing and indeed teaching the real methods - which is great.

 

Once you clear these channels and allow the water to flow how much are you able to "control" these energies for healing or for achieving advanced meditative practices such as suspension of thought?

 

Once you learn how to work with these energies are you "locked in" to a specific system or can you sort of reverse engineer how other systems move energy to achieve specific goals?

 

 

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

So should I take it that you’re a video specialist?  

 

No, I don't do video editing or anything of that nature. 

 

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You can watch a video or two and know? 

 

You can learn a lot by watching. You can learn even more by doing. Why not do both?

 

I consider myself open minded. If kalaripayattu is effective I'd be more than happy to learn. 

 

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That’s how you know Kalaripayattu is “useless”? Because you’ve not seen videos? 

 

No. I've seen numerous videos showing just how ineffective it is. I have yet to see videos demonstrating it's effectiveness. I've asked many times and I have yet to receive any. Please spare me the "kalaripayattu is too dangerous for the cage and for the streets" argument. Or maybe it's such a secretive style that only a few can know it or truly become masters.

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

What would be a valid example of that? Point fighting? Cage fighting? Street fight?

 

Unarmed fighting. Cage fighting or street fighting. 

 

For all that sword fighting stuff take it out with the fencers. I know unarmed fighting came from fencing but fencing is completely out of my realm.

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Aside from all your evasion , to avoid answering any questions    - how do you KNOW Kalaripayattu loses against karate ?

 

For the same reason I know that Tai Chi loses to Dutch style kick boxing. Dutch style kick boxing is really karate/muay thai/boxing. What in the world would make you think that kalaripayattu doesn't lost against karate?

 

You can't fault me for not properly answering poorly worded questions but the intelligible ones have been answered fully and directly. .

 

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This is your problem , you generalise to a type of 'patriotic ' degree . What if its a shit karate guy against a  very good Kalaripayattu ?\

 

What is very good Kalaripayattu? You accuse others of evading questions but you have yet to fulfill any requests of showing kalaripayattu in all its martial glory. 

 

If it's a bad karate guy against a "very good" kalaripayattu I'd still put my money on the trash karate guy. 

 

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Thats no priof of anything . Anyone can just type out words like that its merely  'proof' by personal assertion  ;

 

 

Create the conditions for a cross style matchup and the results will speak in Kalaripayattu  favour .

 

- see .

 

No, there's a sea of evidence. Evidence that's lacking on your part. 

 

My assertion isn't wrong either. I could just as easily say create the conditions for a cross style matchup between a person wielding a gun and another one with a plastic knife and the person using the gun will always win. That's a fact. Saying the opposite (as in your case) is a false equivalency and does not make it tr

 

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Thats a wide definition of politics !

 

That's the nature of the beast. I didn't make it that way.

 

 

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 I could explain all those things  using other motivations .

 

Be my guest...

 

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It didnt appear in the post for some reason .

 

Since I need to posit , it appears you really have not seen the use of a horse stance in MMA

 

HINT - you can just google  'use of horse stance in MMA'  , if you ever decide to educate yourself about this  - unless you are too biased to allow r to watch it  ?

 

but anyway ;  

 

the first part is for your elucidation

 

My elucidation in learning just how severely deluded some people are. All of those were poor examples of horse stance in MMA. The best I've seen so far is using sumo stances to defend against wrestling takedowns. 

 

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why practice that in Kihon ?

 

For no other reason other than your sensei told you to. 

 

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Why practice it when attacking and delivering a tsuki  when the hand isnt grabbing anything ?

 

Didn't I already answer that?

 

 

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And why use hikite when 'blocking '  - what ? You are going to seize a wrist and pull it in while you are blocking an initial tsuki  attack ?

 

why move the arm right across to the other side before 'blocking' ? Why point the other hand up before doing an 'upper block' with the other hand / arm ?    A straight tsuki needs little force to direct it sideways off line .  Same with a hooked or curved punch .

So why do a hikate movement  before a block when you have not even grasped anything  ???

 

When you're doing those upward blocks and chambering your non blocking hand to the hips you're defending against an upward attack and simultaneously bringing your opponent off balance. We used to do the exact same drill in taekwondo as a theoretical knife attack and the chambering was never explained. I never found the technique practical.  

 

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This is what I mean about bad practice , and exactly why some karateka get cleaned up by street fighters , MMA guys, boxers , etc .  Why do things 'just for drills'  when the drill teaches you a bad habit ?

 

Agreed. Isn't this a reason to evolve the art and filter out useless drills and techniques? Perhaps even take the few redeemable drills and techniques from the more obscure styles. Whatever refuses to evolve needs to die out.

 

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karate training is more like :   Punch me badly, drop your guard and leave the punching arm floating out there ... dont retract it !   Now I can do a senseless hikate  first , grabbing nothing , block your punch and counter becasue you have no guard up ,  and I might also seize that arm that is STILL floating out there extended  AFTER I have done my counter , and use that for the next counter or take down .

 

Generally speaking and it's something that needed change long ago. Thankfully there are karate styles that have made these changes decades ago. This is why I made no mention of more modernized styles. I'm just allowing you to erroneously paint karate as a monolithic style that falls to the confinements of other traditional martial arts. 

 

You still haven't answered or demonstrated as to how kalaripayattu does things better?

 

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Most karate ka dont have a clue what they are doing and are practising corrupted forms   due to several FACTS

 

 + The system was taught  by the destroyed and defeated Okinawans  to the Americans that defeated them  - as if they where going to teach them everything or correct things !

+ at an early stage, it was modified as a school physical education system , for children .

+ It got imported to Japan where they greatly corrupted and modified it and basically stole it and transformed it into a Japanese product ( like they where doing with just about everything back then   - 'Made in Japan ' ) using non Japanese traditions  (like French Savate  - that just happened to be touring Jaoan at the exact time  Funokoshi's son  started making up   modern JKA karate ) and adopting other parts of Japanese budo to make it more Japanese  .. of yes, and  modifed the kanji meaning to make Karate  from 'Chinese Hand ' to 'Empty hand '  .

 

Your "FACTS" are not facts at all. It's intellectually dishonest and historically inaccurate to call your claims "facts". The one that holds the most water is the modification for the physical education system. 

 

For one the Americans were not at war directly with the Okinawans. 

Secondly, I know exactly where you got the "karate stole it's kicks from French Savate" argument. This is a myth that spread across the internet as "historical fact" thanks to unreliable, pseudo history gathered on obscured internet forums from self proclaimed martial arts historians with 0 credentials. Some self proclaimed expert (everyone is an expert on the internet) gathered all this wrong information and bundled it up into a viral YouTube video where it goes unchallenged and passed off as history.

 

Karate was influenced by Chinese fighting arts with no influence from savate. It's actually far more likely that savate stole it's kicks from kung fu styles as well as from fighters in Thailand during their travels across Asia.

1 hour ago, dwai said:

😁 how do you know that? Have you seen all Kalaripayattu fighters go up against all karateka? Have you seen one? Have you seen enough to statistically surmise this? 

 

For the same reason I know that all Kalaripayattu practitioners would get destroyed by Muay Thai fighters. For the same reason I know that wing chun would get destroyed by boxers. 

 

I could just as easily say that weak karate styles (not all karate styles) would get destroyed by boxing or Muay Thai (and they have) yet kalaripayauttu and wing chun would lose to these weak karate styles. 

 

 

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TBH I don’t particularly care for what you have to say on this subject,

 

You care so little that you have to go out of your way to defend useless arts. Okay.....

 

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but I’m in a playful mood right now  

 

Good, because I am too.

 

The title of that video is very misleading. Kalaripayattu is NOT the oldest martial art nor is it the source from which all other martial arts arose from. 

 

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It seems you are claiming that ALL other martial arts BUT karate are in those camps .

 

That's not what I said. My awesome memory tells me that I did include karate in there with ALL other martial arts and made it clear that certain karate styles, not all, are exceptional (and they are) when it comes to  "traditional" martial arts that are still functional today and have the potential to be even better. Go back and reread for yourself. Have fun. 

 

I'm sure the much less functional karate styles and other traditional martial arts have some redeemable techniques that can be adopted and applied in actual combat or battle (there goes that word again). 

 

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I am wondering what specific type of karate you mean , or what one you have personal experience with ,  to give you this opinion ?

 

Hold that thought. We'll save the good stuff for later. 

 

Show the effectiveness of Kalaripayattu.