iain

A fascinating subject; personally I like equate yin and yang to sky and earth, earth being femanin and sky masculine; Life being a fractal boundary in space and time on the border between the two.

The natural state of order or disorder depends upon where you reside and when.

Computers run on a very linear ticker-tape ... . ... . . ...... . . . . .

So what could that fancy quantum technology do different?

A don't think it would do any thing differently, but I think its time frame would be rooted else where; no longer a vibrating crystal in our space-time frame of reference. It is debatable as to whether it is random but it would not be comparatively different from a perpetual coin toss in our time frame reference. Obviously you can't toss a coin in space, randomness is very dependant upon location and movement.

Enable an algorithm that brings up a different result under the same conditions?

No algorithm necessary to generate randomness if it is coming from the underlying system rather than being fabricated, if perhaps randomness be related to the perspective of a space time reference, such as that of our Earth's motion; then it is feasible that generated randomness would not show any comparative modal differences when compared to a physically generated random sequence, such as a coin toss.

Funnily enough; a computer is incapable of generating a truly random sequence even today, though a quantum machine maybe be capable of this, with a big "?" ...

This image will eventually emerge from a coin toss and a pen and paper plot; the computer helps to speed things up somewhat and if it is powerful enough a computer its best attempt at random will work. The randomness problem correlates to resolution; if your simulated random is detailed enough the pattern emerges.

Yes, I have some fern fronds out back at the pond area.

Did you know that they can be generated graphically, as in the picture above, by plotting random coin tosses through a simple set of rules or an algorithm?

 

Order meets chaos; yin meets yang.

My butt is fine it is the back that takes the brunt; if only I could force myself to sit in lotus posture; Sigh, stuck in a very objective butt rut.

I wonder if you would need a vehicle to levitate; a mat or something of sorts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Seth

If objective is scrapped how would we separate the self from the universal Self; if universal conciousness exists? To my mind and from my Jyotish practise, it would seem that it does so I am using a capital S to denote universal conciousness and to separate the subjective self from the universally connected self. The subjective self being the part of us that is aware of interconectivity at this level.
Those who are completely emerged in their objective experience, illusory as it is; it would serve to call this lower state of awareness objective, don't you think?

Hello folks,

I was wondering if you are offey with this familiar form?
It is a beautiful demonstration of the interrelation that life upon planet earth has with random chaos.

Sanskrit pronunciation is the key to this riddle ...

Can you levitate yet?

leave shoes on the porch,
shoes made from leaves are well worn,
those dry orange reds.

Hello Marblehead

... I can't buy that.

That is a curious choice of words; I wonder, where are you from?

Let me divine ... The Land of the Free?

Aside from the mystic aspects of this post I agree with you and those are good observations.

Thank you Marblehead, please let me clarify a little further my statement and I am assuming that by "mystic" you are referring to my use of the word karma ?

I shall continue to explain: I will freely admit to having never examined the kundali of a tree myself; As such, that I am also very uncertain in that which pertains to the functioning of karma (space-time relativity) in relation to the deeds, events and health of trees.

 

That said; the Jupitarian cycle is plainly visible in tree rings; should we chose to partake in dendrochronology.

 

 

Hello Marblehead,

And BTW, the objective needs nothing in order for it to be what it is. The subjective always requires a subject. A tree doesn't need man to tell it what it is. It already is what it is.

The tree is already humble it does not need to learn to bow. Linguistics having never been a trees strong point, seldom get him into trouble ...
I never saw a tree rally up and raise an army for example. Thus the potential for entrapment through karma is greatly reduced.
That said, some trees must suffer human stupidity for any thing up to a thousand years!

Hello Rara,

I thought I should perhaps answer each question individually here, after rereading your post.

Similarly, I'm trying to decode this...

First part ok, but where does this "knowledge of subjectivity" come from, in your mind? The objective, or "3rd state"?

By bowing, through humility.

I don't see how one is "burnt in transition". I could understand someone that is not honest, being "burnt" in subjectivity though.

Psychosis and its consequences +ve and -ve.

I can only assume that your argument is based on some "3rd state", or higher state of consciousness being the ultimate, collective of the two?

Yes, a state of flux between the oneness of infinity and the duality required for anything to exist within an infinity; like a potential difference, created by infinity purely for its own self amusement. Consciousness is knowledge of self; or self recognition so in order to be objective about anything at all one must first know the self; not the inverse.

I like to think of the universe folding back upon its self to check to see if it really exists, this being the only thing that makes it exist. So in conclusion, the universe will fold back upon its self to consciously pinch its own arm, so as to see if it is awake or not; once settled in the knowledge that it knows its awake; it promptly goes back to sleep again; We are little loops of consciousness, a small part of space time in a rather insignificant biological bundle.

The model that I use for Jyotish, is based in 3 guna and a 4th state called turya. But basically the same principles using different mathmatical modles.

Hello soaring crane,

It just occured to me that there's nothing more subjective than an objective. Curious.

Becoming most a most curious phenomenon when applied to a flock or herd ...

 

Similarly, I'm trying to decode this...

 

First part ok, but where does this "knowledge of subjectivity" come from, in your mind? The objective, or "3rd state"?

 

I don't see how one is "burnt in transition". I could understand someone that is not honest, being "burnt" in subjectivity though.

 

I can only assume that your argument is based on some "3rd state", or higher state of consciousness being the ultimate, collective of the two?

 

When we are blessed with states of consciousness other than the perceived norm; if the yogi is not formed in rajayoga; He or She will often either be killed by others; kill them selves, or be driven quite mad; that is in eyes of the objective consensus of the general public.

 

All of humanities Jems are forged in this press under extreme heat; Ignorance of this is often found and propagated in objectivity, arguably the cause of objectivity.

 

It is to find our original state and nature ...

Can you explain what you mean by this?

When the objective nature is diminished or somewhat removed; then a flow starts to occur as one no longer needs to plan or structure speech as it is based in well founded knowledge and drive by a sakti. An experience of saktipata gives exactly this; it often brings with it knowledge; the aspirant may then also experience anugraha.

If not well versed, this can be devastating.

 

Cognition based in objectivity is cognition without experience of this. Rather like a bee discussing its own hive with no knowledge of neuro epiginetics.

Hello Rara,

It is a pleasure for me to delve back into these roots of savism should it be that you find matters of interest here than that is great; if not then you will simply have a little objective knowledge of trika savism.

I don't have much I can respond to here as I have no experience of the Kashmir Shavite way.

But in your response about me not understanding that the quantum split "underlies our reality", I will say yes. It's an experiment much deeper and inconclusive. Not to get confused with the fact that I understand the experiment and what it suggests, but it is a work in progress. To say "it is this" is exactly what I mean about the subjective nature of your argument. It represents an idea which makes perfect sense. A Buddhist teacher also told me their teachings make sense. Anything can make sense if you want it to, but that doesn't necesssarily give it substance.

Then again, you did say that you would find it hard to be objective in your answer, so that's ok.

Oh you have misunderstood me; I have said that I felt like reciting the experiment as you are negating its obvious importance in this discussion, not that you have not understood it but that it must be considered when considering these subjects.
I am glad that I have not stirred your objection.

Your yin and yang explanation is ok (of course I'm sure you do know that it is broader than this in terms of representing the unity and crossover of all opposite ends of polarity) I don't dispute what you say other than my argument in that it is only a philosophical idea, and I would like a reference for this so called "3rd state".

The state of subjectivity is the higher state to which we aspire; the subjectivity that you have describe, to my mind is residing in cognition. Cognition being the intermediate state; My personal reference is experience.
This base of trika shavism is from the Mālinivijayottata-tantra and Bhairava Tantra.
Siva is of three energies: Parāshakti; supreme or subjective energy, Parāparā; intermediate or cognitive energy; and Aparā; Inferior objective energy.
Nothing is black and white my friend; but only infinite shades of grey.

However, we can't assume that philosophy can be put in the same ball park as science when it is unrelated in its approach. Science may be supported by philosophy, and vice versa, but as separate entities they stand alone in what their aims are. You can make as many links to spiritual teachings as you like, but this is only relation, or parallels. There is nothing that binds these together, solidly.

Again I must reference experiments performed at the quantum scale and suggest, based upon my own personal experience, that this quantum effect is visible at our human scale, if our own personal consciousness is adapted to it from subjectivity.

If the science supports a subjective view, that is all well and good, but this still leaves us with something biased. Just look at how people who swear by diets using scientific information to sell it. The people that buy into it justify this because of the science, not stopping to think about the scientific information that was ommitted.

Science is probability and statistics that is all it ever is, the issue with advertising is that it finds its base upon the pretext that our population are ignorant of high-school mathematics and entirely driven by their senses and desires.

Other than this, unless I look into the Kashmir Shavite way, I can't say anything else to what you have said other than politely nod. That said, you have got me curious and wouldn't mind a good link where I can find more information on these teachings

Yes it is only through investigation of these philosophies and practices that we can experience that which is being described.
I recommend only the teachings of students that have studied with swami lakshmanjoo. Some of the tantra are very qhickly very misleading if one is not with in the bounds of a lineage.
Many books are available with audio recordings by John Hughes, who spent around 30 in Kashmir Recording explanations of tantras from his guru.

http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/fellowship/
http://lakshmanjoo.org/
http://www.kashmirtrika.org/kashmir_shaivism.asp

In further reference to the OP; an honest nature develops naturally from knowledge of subjectivity; as those who are not honest; are either severely burnt in the transition between these energetic states, else they remain in state of severe flux; The process its self is self selective.

Rather like Darwin's theory of evolution, applied to the process of cognition.

... I believe, in fact, that "objective mind" is an oxymoron.

 

I believe the same: Objective mind, to my mind, being cognition based in objectivity.

 

I think similar a thought to your reference to "logic" soaring crane; this is the foundation of trika shavism.

Hello Unseen_Abilities,

Do you know of the guna? There is nothing wrong with tamasic energy, that is black or doom as you say; much learning and growth comes from there within; Key to my mind is in being aware that we are doing it, and understanding why, so as to have direction, which is counterintuitive in that it is sattvic.

A desire for tamas energy is paradoxical also, as it is founded in rajas, pride and proud ego; careful or you might end up swinging back and forth like a pendulum which can be very painful.

Obviously only my opinion; but I thought never the less that I would voice it.

The cat got your tongue?
For the script has just begun;
to be partaken ...

Hello Rara, a pleasure to read you,

As a Kashmir shavite; this thread is difficult to respond to objectively, I feel like re-explaining the quantum slit experiment for you here as you seem to have forgotten that it underlies our very reality, demonstrating the nature of time in relation to events; It is not for cognitive amusement, it is objective prof of a higher subjective nature.

Opinions are formed of lower objective energy and higher cognition; subjective energy is from experience an,d is not formed in cognitive thought.

There are 3 states of energy, imagine the yin & yang symbol, it has the smaller dots inside the larger swirls, this amply demonstrates that when objectivity and subjectivity are observed their is a 3 state, at their junction, that is cognition; To my mind cognition is that which Rara is describing above.

The video example shows very much the tales and woes of a people firmly fixed in the lower objective energy state, provoking to the turning of the wheel of births and deaths, and consequent pain as demonstrated. A higher state of understanding is that of subjective energy, which when obtained will stop this cycle of birth and death of ego.

Kashmir shavism is defined by a very real experience of subjective energy.

There is no "so and so vs. so and so" competition this statement is highly suggestive of being entangled in the wheel of repeated births and deaths, I like to visualise growth as an ebb and flow (spanda), but the wheel of Saṃsāra as a vortices or whirl pool near a riverbank, perhaps behind a rock on a corner somewhere in the universal flow of time. Some reside so firmly in objective energy and thus the wheel turns so slowly, that it is imperceptible; when these people experience the birth and death of the ego; it is by way of a massive life crisis. Those who are nearing an understanding of realisation, experience a rapid cycling of birth and deaths often perceived by the objective minded as being unstable, they are realising subjective energy.

There are many boats to cross over this life Rara, some swim; others might do the same pulling others in a boat. Which ever way you see best to cross is your path your journey.

The arguments postulated, to my mind, resides purely in the objective energy state.

but will be again
but who will Will be again?
A trick that time plays ...

Well shit!

 

Excellent questions.

 

No, I'm not equating consciousness with ego.

 

However, your last question caught my attention because I have never viewed the flower following the sun as a form of consciousness even though it truly is. But then, a flower (its plant and all) is a living thing. Different from a rock which is not a living thing.

 

So if someone were to say "all living things possess consciousness" I would likely not argue with the statement. And even if someone were to suggest that all living things have "ego" I would likely not argue against that either.

 

Some argue that the universe is a living organism. I don't hold to this understanding. Yes, it is dynamic, constantly changing. But alive? No.

 

Might I urge that whilst considering a rock; you include both the fossil and the time frame and temperature (all of which are tattva); by time frame I mean think large, the time scale of the Gods ...

 

The passage of molten lava from within the earth's core en-route from either the expanding cracks in the ocean bed or a bubbling volcano. Upon its passage to return to the sea bed by way of sand and or desert dust; entropy if you will humour me that; Just as the water cycle occurs on land, this cycle is happening in currents under the mantle; A posses by which precious stones are formed, the structure of which is of course crystalline.

Now the humble quarts is quite a fascinating rock; its vibration gives the structure upon which most every electronic device today functions, permitting the carriage of the signal upon which we are now communicating.

 

To think of a rock as being simply a rock, is to put it in a box with a label upon it; this is not knowledge of the rock.

 

 

This is why we find fossil Ammonites in the Himalayas; I wonder, does the rock hold a memory of the sea?