iain

Just a thought, the discourse seems to be Western in slant, by which I mean that the subject of God is only referred in relation to an Abrhamic monotheist; old man in the sky type of deity. Just as Richard Dawkins never speaks to one who is versed in sanAtana dharma, they would refer to the multidimensional model of the universe from which modern science has borrowed so very heavily. God is a tool, by transferring adoration from ones self or ones vices and desires onto a benign form, so as to help destroy ones own ego and remove attachments to others or things; from which point onwards the tool is perhaps no longer needed, thus disregarded. God consciousness is a state of mind, not a belief; belief requires that the ego get involved in the whole process. Of course many over time misunderstand this, until the doctrine is so old that it no longer works and quite the reverse happens. Like a tree with no sap. To channel energy rather than consume or give unwittingly; the ego must go. The Hindu Devas, are another good example of this, used heavily in Jyotish shastra. They are our emotions or senses which are them selves considered to be tattva/elements; used in a profound testable scientific system and are used to make regularly accurate predictions. If you don't see what I mean by devas being our emotions think of mob or group mentality to see the deity or demon. How else would you describe it a thousand years ago? Are we so indoctrinated in our atheism as to believe that God is only of Abrahmic construct; the proverbial old man in the sky? "Spirituality has to go" is sounding rather thin at the moment, due to a lack of valid response or augment ... To which I say: sociopothy and narcissism have to go; only spirituality can assist in achieving this.

Now that conjures up a kind of fruity nutty spicy taste for me; quite an incantation.

It is all indoctrination, that is why the more learned amongst us are nominated with phd, doctor of philosophy; it means heavily indoctrinated. Why the ph instead of a F? this is its self a matter of belief ... There is no differance to my mind, none what so ever, other than time and the meaning is always forgotten in time; as that is the nature of knowledge, it is transient. Show me a mathematical model which does not rely on a construct of faith and I will show you the axioms in which you must first believe to accept that model.

Hello Protector, How would do you prove to a spiritually limited being that a rose smells nice, or even that a rose has any smell at all?

Terribly sorry, I did not understand your reply at all; was this perhaps an exam question?

Hello Protector, Have you considered the implications of relativity in terms of spirituality; If we were to suppose that our experiences of life and indeed reality are very different, what term then best we apply to that which differs; Is it not the spiritual component of our mutual experience of life on earth, which differs? If so, then it would not be foolish to disregard it ... Kind regards.

Oh, probably over in the Astrology thread; its my favorite subject, proof enough for me of the nature of "that". Perception of reality as a function of the self, seems to be surprisingly irrelevant to most "atheists" as such relativity is often ascribed to the deity "Einstein"; a concept deemed too complicated for mortals ... Nice to meet you.

Hello dustybeijing, I fully agree with you, this is where I think the important step is to teach people about the nature of the self, spirituality. That they are in reality being dogmatic in their belief, and that this is a spiritual issue. To be aware that others may be more sensitive to certain aspects of "perceived reality"; this is another spiritual issue. Just as some of us are better at calculation others have intuition giving creative ideas. Neither is better or right or wrong; but these concepts are all spiritual ... Religion is a family heirloom.

Hello, Atheists are indoctrinated with ideas other than those of God or Gods. No indoctrination is possible with out words, what does that make God ... Mathematics. Now who believes in God?

Hello, Sorry for the delay in mu response, thank you for all the wonderful info and links: I am quite fascinated by the notion of Bazi and the links to Ernest G. McClain are wonderful, I shall try to find some time to read a little of his work it looks very interesting indeed, just downloading a pdf now. The notions that are the intricately woven tapestry of life, all these different aspects of the manifold nature of space and time, are wonderful of them selves, simply divine; that they have been mapped by others for us to study and ponder, is simply breath taking. I have so much to study on my Jyotiṣa course already, I must be careful not to become to distracted. Yes the Jyotiṣa doctrine or vedāṅga is very much interwoven with the vedāṅga that is yoga, there are 6 in all, all are important in their own right as well as seen together; naturally the different doctrines interrelate most eloquently; as such we do find the essence of kundalini in the kundali. Yes it would seem that this 60 year cycle is very similar to the Chinese, though not entirely the same. Called the samvatsara, it is an important part of the Indian panchanga or calendar giving the years name, of which their are 60. Each of the years have a different character or flavor but they are also grouped into 5 years by tattva (element) and 5 tattva groups, of these groups of 5 years the first is ascribed to Aries the second to Taurus, etc ... Jupiter is symbolic of akash tattva or either, and this cycle is thus very fundamental to the system; in horā śāstra the basic sign attributes are mapped to the native, as being the way that a native perceives God, this evolves as we proceed through the zodiac. This 5 years period is a basic unit in vedāṅga Jyotiṣa, a yuga period; being the average period in which the Sun and Moon conjoin in a particular star. It takes an average of 5 years for the Sun and Moon to conjoin in the same place. The angle between the Sun and Moon is very important for us Jyotiṣa and indeed for the Hindu calendar in its construction as it is luni solar; this is used to time the completion of this Jovian cycle. So we have the Sun, Moon and Jupiter giving this cycle its definition, by way of their conjunction. The Sun Moon and Jupiter make what is known as the tripod of life and are considered to be the right, left and 3rd eyes of śiva. The pentagram and pentagon are symbolic of the number 5, and of Jupiter in the Vedic astrology system, as such Jupiter represents Thursday the 5th day of the vedic week. Have you come across the calculation using the 7 pointed star yantra to give the order of the weekdays, from the planetary speeds? Most eloquent. Kind regards.

Thank you for the file Sunbeam, I shall read it with great interest. The sidreal system combined with the motion of the planets creats some important cycles for us in Vedic astrology, notably the Jupitarian cycle; when taken in referance to the stars behind, takes 60 years to complete a full return to the same star, having completed 5 full orbits of the zodiac The wonderful thing about this cycle is that it compares beautifuly to the fundamental pentatonic musical scales. Should one play the flute, you will require 12 different pentatonic (5 note scale) flutes to play all tonalities and then to arrive back at the first ... Or alternatively 12 different blues harps to get all the notes and jam with anyone. I love this

Thank you Zhongyongdaoist, Very helpful, I am intrigued to learn more of this Saturn Jupiter cycle of 20 years ...

Hello there, I should love to learn a little more of Chinese astrology, did it follow Buddhism, from India or perhaps there is an older root in I ching and the Tao; I am here to learn of this really. In Jyotiṣa the study of light rather than the planets them selves; the star zodiac of 27 houses is of the mind and the 12 houses the physical manifestation, between them lays infinity. They emerge by way of the tattva or elements, of which in Kashmir śavism there are 36. Essential this is the border between Prakṛti and puruṣa, the material and the spiritual. Jyotiṣa is in all essence, a bridge between the two. As you mention qi, this sounds like different language or perspectives for the very same thing; how wonderful! Qi is known as prāṇa in the vedic system, an important part of understanding of the manifestation of a kundali. This is why sadhana is an important part of the Jyotiṣas practice. I would love to know if Chinese astrology uses the dasha system at all, it is very important in the practices of Jyotish, a tool by which a natives future is known, or estimated. We can predict or see when children will be born, marriages, moving house or country; many different things. Thank you for your thoughts.

Hello Michael, I may need to make a few more posts before being able to vote; that shouldn't be any problem as this seems to be a rather nice forum with many fascinating threads ... Oh I agree with you totaly, when it comes to validity, the fractal nature of this and that, work from many perspectives. The different systems we use to map it are all just as valid as each other. Numerology is fundamental to vedic astrology also, and palmistry is often used to rectify the birth time, It is perhaps only, that which we are trying to achieve that may differ slightly. The structure of time and that of the universe is to my mind, quite simply very beautiful; it is of no matter then, which way we choose to adopt to investigate it. Right then, back to the polls; Virgo it is!

Hello folks nice to meet you, Just wondering where to vote: I'm a student of Jyotiṣa, (Vedic astrology) and as such I believe that the 12 house (bhāvana) are formed principally of the mahatattva or 5 principle elements; by way of the stars. Our current detachment from mother earth, and the consequent ecological conundrum; arguably on a parallel with the detachment of the houses from the stars, perhaps due to a lack of the aether element. I love Jyotish (light) and the resulting study of astronomy and astrology; however, I must concede, that I am not really sure how to fill in the poll. All that said, I love to discuss astrology and am very pleased to meet you all. I'm a Virgo Sun in the Tropical system; a Leo Sun in the Vedic sidereal system ... Kind regards.

Hello folks, Interesting thread, in response to the op, the tradition that I am studying has a couple of extra elemental notions which may relate, I believe, to the concept of the abyss to which you are referring ... There are points in time, moments in time which are the best for the focus of meditation, it is to us to find and explore them these are known as the sāndhya meditation open them is critical if we are to know of the self. In a more solid context, the three different planes of mundane life, the connection between the material objective world and the spiritual subjective world, between the loka or dimensions there are 3 inherent divides. The elements on either side of these divides are of inimical nature vis - jala and agni (water and fire being a very lose translation of these tattva, there are in total 5 mahatattva). To see just what energy can emerge from the void between these two tattva; try putting water into a chip pan and you will get a fair idea. Or prithvi and agni which gives simply breakage and dust. Think molten lava pouring into the sea and deserts as two very different extremes. As an interesting side note; life has been observed as on the edge of this void, on the boundary between the earths molten core and the sea bed in volcanic vents. Another name for the void is "Śūnya", it has applications in jyotiṣh theory and practices. It means zero in Sanskrit, and is the origin of our modern 0 in the decimal counting system. Kind regards. iain

Hello Jeff, Very nice to meet you Jeff. My interest here is in the experience described rather than the particular perspective of any particular saint; which is I believe another key point its self, the cornerstone of Kaśmir śavism being that the experience of Godconciousness as the underlying śakti that is divine grace; Yet too be experienced as a whole. As such we have the Paternal nature of Ahbinagupta's lineage coinciding with the divine śakti of the experience of Godconsiousness, and balanced understanding coming from both śiva and śakti. I love his interpretation of the Bhagavad Gita also, I must admit to being rather hands on in my own approach, as I have mentioned, not so scholarly minded. Greatly looking forwards the the release of Swami Lakshaman Jū's interpretation of Tantrāloka this year, though I have a some ideas of its content from my parallel studies of the wonderful devine science of Jyotiṣa. I recently received some delightful insight in to Tantrāloka (what it is in Jyotiṣa not the actual script) from my śikṣā guru very recently; its integration in to a Jyotiṣa understanding. A pleasure to interact with a fellow siśya of this wonderful path. I am facinated to learn more of the Taoist perspectives also how this might integrate with the more southern perspectives; for example I have heard that the I ching is as old a parallel to the Vedic knowledge its self, coming from a separate origin. Also that a Bhudist monk named Bodhidharma may have traveled into China in the 5th and 6th century CE from India carring knowledge of meditative techniques; all wonderfully fascinating history's in their own right, always a delight to discover new perspectives. Warm regards, iain.

Namaste, As is I believe tradition here to be such, I should like to introduce my self to you; my name is Iain, I live in France, my spiritual background is of satya sanAtana dharma and of shavism. Why am I posting here? Well I have wanted to respond to a thread in which an excerpt from swami Lakshman Jū's seacret supreim is quoted: http://thetaobums.com/topic/36257-kashmir-shaivism-the-nine-types-of-grace-of-siva/ Alas, the thread appears to be locked but new my profile created; I thought I best come over here and say hello. Hello, pleased to meet you. Perhaps this is a sign that I would do well to investigate the perspective that is "Tao". Pointers most welcome. Kind regards, iain

Thank you dustybeijing. Ah yes I see, some forum dynamics ... Thank you, pleased to meet you.

Dear Jeff, Thank you for posting, I have found much encouragement and support in the writings and teachings of swami Lakśaman Jū; this is why I am responding to your post. For any who have had experiences with shaktipat in the form of tivramadhya saktipata or without an experienced master. The siva sutras would be advisable as a focus of study. If this awakening is not yet established then the teachings of Patañjali are essential before advancing any further; Ones very being can depend upon this. Those who are able to grasp the siva sutras will have either predigested the yoga aphorisms or have a natural tenancy to behave in their accordance. Sorry to hear of your misfortune captain mar vell; these things can be very tricky, I myself am rather lucky to be alive due to my own experiences with saktipata; perhaps I am not so blessed as to have left this body at that time ... Why do you say a disaster? I hope that you don't mind my inquisitive nature, please forgive me that. One must establish śāmbhavopāya, to stabilize this state. One who resides in śāktopāya state, or āṇavopāya state; require still the aid of a master to maintain awareness. It is a pleasure to read this wisdom here. Might I inquire as to how saktipata might be described in Tao? I am fascinated by the notion of i ching which relates I believe to Tao also, at least I think it does, yet know very little of it; perhaps it is similar to some of the ideas taught on śakti in śavism. Kind regards. iain

Hellop TC, Thank you for your warm welcome; I look forwards to reading and conversing, all that I might learn. Kind regards.