Icedude

Do we know when we are hungry?

Do we know when we are thirsty?

Do we know when we are going to die?

 

Or do we need someone to scope our stomachs, and to measure our body fluid levels/electrolytes to determine hydration levels? Do we need medical transcriptionists to certify that we are officially "dead?"

 

Spiritually, you should know when you are not longer hungry and thirsty anymore.

You should also at least know when you stopped being a dead man walking.

No one can tell you the truth but yourself.

 

If you can say, "I am healthy. I have a peaceful mind. I have no more questions. I am content with my life. I have no fight within me," you have achieved something. You are already great.

 

Can you honestly tell yourself that, though?

If you don't know anyone who can tell you what being "hungry", or "thirsty", or "dying" is, but you're just told "Eat until you're not hungry, drink until you're not thirsty, and watch out for dying!", then you'd end up an obese nervous wreck who has to go to the doctor every once in awhile to see if you were "dead", not knowing what it was yourself.

...so yes, we need definitions, especially when there's so much conflicting information, conflicting definitions, and talk of different levels of conciousness.

I know that I'm not spiritually hungry or thirsty anymore, but so do atheists, and schizophrenics, and every headstrong man, and every redneck shooting salt after kids in order to get them off their lawn. They all agree that they don't need no meditation in their lives, and schizophrenics may even believe that they are Buddha and Jesus combined, if they get to "tell themselves the truth". That's not for them to decide, because they're not the ones that made up the definitions to begin with.

There was this guy named Siddhartha Gautama, who founded one of the largest religions on Earth, and for some reason, he wasn't just some guy sitting underneath a tree who just wasn't spiritually hungry or thirsty anymore (like his former believers believed when they abandoned him). He discovered a place called Nirvana, which is what all this buddhist hubbub is about. He told people that there is a way to escape suffering altogether.

The same goes for Dogen, and Lao Tzu: They didn't just say: "Ah, to heck with it." They reached awakening, at least if you are to believe the scriptures.

Now, you may feel more at peace when you're meditating, or doing yoga, or any other technique, but a moments peace is like a drop of water compared to the ocean of Nirvana. It comes and goes, and without a goal, meditation is just an addiction, no different than morphine. It may at best make you healthier, but it's not spiritual. It won't transcend you into a different state of consciousness permanently if you just stop when you feel calmer.

If it was just a matter of telling myself that I'm great, then there would be no need for teachers or temples or scriptures. That's basically just called "being confident". Compare that to all these weird things that people experience when they meditate, and they say that they *still* haven't reached Nirvana. Reaching Nirvana means feeling attachments fall away, leaving you limitless. People describe Nirvana in many different ways, and yet there is only one state that Buddha himself defined as Nirvana.

Then what is the point of buddhism?

If you don't know when you've reached the end of your awakening, or even where it is, then you don't know how to get there, and if you don't know how to get there, then what are you doing with all this meditation, all this yoga, all this acupuncture, all these mantras and chakras?

If there is no goal, there is no way.

I'm trying to be polite here, but you probably understand what I'm implying here: If there's no way to prove Nirvana, then that makes you all fools.

Yes, I said Taylor made. Didn't I....???

 

PS....

Of course, you have to provide the seal.

I appreciate your offer, and I'd probably take it if you had actually reached Nirvana yourself at least once.

I'm serious about this, because people don't respect my authority, and it ends up it them disregarding my advice, and then live miserable lives after that.

>I'm pretty sure there are some folks over in (the tourist sections thereof) wudang mountain

>who would be more than happy to help you out... though it wouldn't be free, and you would

>have to get out of your chair . Silk pajamas extra.

That's over in China, and I don't know chinese, and I don't have a passport, or even money for a plane ticket or a travelling interpreter. I'd settle for a western temple. Still, isn't there a better way to "transmit" than simply staring at eachother?

>You have to find an organization of people who already have diplomas preferably with

>prestige and recognition in this field to give you one (like neurosurgeons). I think you should

>try to get a trophy too.

Yeah, I'm thinking of travelling to the nearest buddhist temple in my western country, and asking people there. Still, I'm expecting a reply like: "No, I don't think you won our staring contest, but maybe if you spend three more years at this temple, you might win it someday. ...not that anybody won a staring contest with me yet, but you can always hope, and then give up that hope for inner peace."

>You can have one Taylor made very professionally for $10 online.

Is this "Taylor" a buddha or a bodhicitta? See, I need somebody with authority, or I'd just ask my mom.

Well you have to reach nirvana first...

Well, I'm kinda writing this from Nirvana, if that makes any sense. ...but maybe I'm not - who am I to judge if I'm just deluding myself or not? I tried to read up on what Nirvana is, and how to get there, and the definition varies depending on your beliefs. Some people (I think it was tibetan buddhists.) claim that you have to transform into a tiger mutant. ...so I guess I just have to go to enough temples until I find the one where my state of mind is defined as Nirvana.

I was watching the movie Zen last week, and saw that Dogen was given a diploma when it said he had reached Nirvana.

I want a diploma too!

Where do I get one?

What hoops would I have to jump through to get one?

I'm expecting lots of clever answers below, about how people don't crave materialistic diplomas in Nirvana, or that I can make one myself.

It's like this: If you learn all the skills needed to be a neurosurgeon, you can go around telling people that you're a neurosurgeon all you want, but nobody will hire you until you get credentials. If you tell people that you're a neurosurgeon without credentials, people will simply think you're a loon. ...and maybe you are a loon too, but you would have no way of telling without credentials proving it to yourself too.

I tried taking internet quizes too, but while there are millions of internet quizes, I only found two pretty mediocre ones. (It said I'm a "bodhicitta", because the test maxed out at that result.)

Preferably I'd like to prove myself for free, without even getting out of my chair, if that's possible. (Yes, that makes me sound like an overweight American.)

For those who have cultivated at least five years, can you describe what have you accomplished....??? It would be something like you couldn't do it before but now you could. If you were asked to demonstrate your special skill, can you do it instantly....???

I've learned great understanding, unbound by laws, ethics and emotions.

Yes. *hugs*

Well, it started with sexual abuse. I consider my abusers to be my teachers. Without opposition, you'll just stride ahead, thinking everything is okay, and that everything that you think and feel is the only true way of thinking and feeling. Without encountering other paths, you'll never be aware that other paths exist.

It also started with "commercialistic" depictions of soothing flute music, peaceful zen gardens, and friendly monks. It was portrayed as a sort of heaven on Earth. How awesome is that?

Then I had some time over, so someone I was attracted to, lent me a simplistic book on taoism.

Then I read Tao Te Ching.

Then I solved Mumonkan. (I know I wasn't supposed to do that, and I'm sorry.)

After this I began taking lessons from life itself.

When it comes to taoism, I reckon that Tao Te Ching has to be a necessary step. There is relativism and nihilism, but I don't think it becomes taoism unless you understand what "tao" is.

After that, if you want to become enlightened after that, I recommend solving Mumonkan. It belongs to the buddhist rinzai zen philosophy, where people just sit around and think about it all day, but as a taoist you actually pass through the gateless gate that way. It was a fairly short journey to enlightenment for me, so it ended shortly after it began.

Also 4chan is a marvellous place where you get lots of different paths intersecting. At least it was back in the day - now it feels dumbed down. 4chan is my meditation.

I may not have read through a single book of the Tipitaka, but (to put it as bluntly as you're putting it yourself) I'm convinced that you're wrong on all accounts.

Firstly it's wrong because you are phrasing it as rules without reasons. I've never gotten Soto Zen, and I don't think I ever will, but simply imitating the Buddha by acting like he did, or thinking like he did after enlightenment, won't teleport you to enlightenment.

Secondly, I'm going to pick apart the three categories:

While taoism doesn't recognize any values as absolute (like its contrast Confucius did), it does recognize that people invent or adopt things like values, attachments and meanings naturally. As long as you are aware of these values being your own invention or your own adoption, you're perfectly free to have them. You're also perfectly free to just throw all values away, but I doubt that would make you any more enlightened. That just means that you have ended up pathless. Usually boredom settles in after that.

On the contrary, Buddhism is about a *million* thoughts. It's about being mindful of numerous lists of conduct, or at least the four noble truths, to adopt Buddhas way of thinking. ...but Buddha didn't turn into a vegetable after becoming enlightened. What he *did* do was to "stop" his *desires*. Thoughts and desires/attachments, are two separate things. To somebody with OCD it may *look* like thoughts and desires are one, but they're really not.

Like I said, I don't get Soto Zen. Maybe that one is about simply stopping thoughts, but I'd like to think that there's something less barbaric behind that tradition. It's most likely about calming desires as well. That's usually what meditation is about: Seeing a thought or emotion approach, letting the thought or emotion be thought, and seeing it leave again, without attaching to it. Thoughts and emotions that are stopped at the door to your mind, will probably pound on it until they break it down, making meditation a stressful experience instead of a calming one.

When it comes to Rinzai Zen, it's about thinking with focus on a koan. This will cancel other thoughts, and some say that that is the purpose of Rinzai meditation. I personally [removed spelling error] think that the koans contain the necessary wisdom themselves, but I'm somewhat of a Rinzai abomination.

Thirdly, I think you should question any religion, philosophy or any person, that tells you how to think without telling you why. I am in turn not going to tell you why you should think like I say.

Already did, but I'll gloss over them a second time, in case I missed anything.

Take care.

Hello.

First of all, I'm sorry. I tried to register as "Iceman", but wrote "hotmail" as my email address, so that whole account should be disregarded. "Icedude" is fine. Well, all names are bad at describing people, really, yet people fall for them every time. You can't win. You can be "HappyDude" and then people will expect you to be happy all the time.

I'm a taoist. ...I think. I also think I'm a rinzai zen buddhist. I don't read that much, so I don't really know. I also have these delusions of being horribly enlightened. I don't know which is worse: Me being a delusional madman, or me being a complete waste of ultimate wisdom. What if Jesus just sat at home in front of a computer all day and did nothing but fap? Would he still be Jesus?

I'm also not a bot. At least I'm certain about that bit.