Icedude

 

I respectfully disagree, like in any art form there is reason for what is done.

That's just it: I don't see any reason behind raking everything parallely, and then jumping from stone to stone, raking circles around them. It is supposed to be a jumping exercise?

I'll demonstrate what I mean (although my hand is shaky and my mind somewhat flimsy):

"These are the rules: Draw parallel lines, and then draw a line around each stone."

"Yes, master!"

Result:

Both of these gardens express a sense of understanding of serenity and harmony.

I wouldn't even stay at a temple that had a zen garden that looked like the raker was completely clueless. I find those gardens really disturbing.

 

Dear Icedude,

 

Please don't bother yourself with such thoughts. Our moderation team is not that cold-hearted.

 

The worst that could happen is that this thread would be moved to either "General" or "Off Topic" subforum.

 

Your recommendations in your opening post are not much different from some other suggestions that have been made in earnest. That is why I thought it was cute.

While this topic mentions zen and buddhism, it focuses primarily on taoism, and describes follies - absolutely not recommendations - that people make while learning about taoism.Thus it belongs in the taoism subforum. People who learn buddhism typically learn it out of kindness, while people who mislearn taoism typically mislearn it out of laziness. They're out looking to make excuses for themselves, or build up a superficial spirituality. They're not out looking to understand something - only to justify themselves. It's only taoists that I wanted to adress.

I don't know if the topic concerns any taoists in *this forum*, but it's worth pointing out.

For all this talk about "being like water", most rock gardens look like somebody dropped stones into a swamp.

I know that there's probably nothing really profound behind rock gardens, beyond landmarks, but that's no excuse to make them look like Confucius would make them.

And then I must add that King's points are valid.

If I get banned for being impopular, from this temple of immeasurable wisdom, then I will surely die, and my dharma with me. It would be like losing a part of my soul. I must strive to think and feel like the post count dictates, so that I can be one with the tao.

...or I can just hold up the cut off finger of a little boy apprentice.

You can't just "act" enlightened and say this is Taoism, it's more complex than that.

And you are not presenting Taoism in any way, you are just looking for laughs.

Please, stop... Aah, I see! You really want to become more "popular". Ok then, I better let you do your work.

Taoism came from a librarian resigning from Confucius, because he didn't agree with him. Taoism then became a contrast to confucianism - a sort of spiritual and ethical anarchy that renounced virtues as being unnatural. This means that while taoism is complex and mysterious, and tao encompasses everything including Confucius, taoism means a deeper understanding than just not being philosophic and calling it spiritual.

Am I "looking for laughs"? Yes, I am. I am often presenting what I say in a humorous way. Why does that bother you? Joy and laughter is meant to break down conceptions of virtues. It is a very healthy thing to be able to laugh at everything, including oneself.

I am also apalled over you thinking that this is a popularity contest where people have to socially comply to be appreciated personally. I know that that's how many forums operate on the internet, but I simply don't care. I am here for the dharma. I'm not here to meet people, especially not at the *cost* of dharma.

I agree that it's not funny when somebody seems to mock you personally, but I don't mean to be cruel with this topic. I felt a need to adress this stance to taoism, and there's really no super-kind way to do it in that everybody is okay with. I'm sorry, but you needed to know this.

Dude seriously, don't post such things in the Taoist Discussion nor the General Discussion!

It's not that comedy is not allowed here, but there is a place for such posts and it's called "Off Topic".

You are only spamming that way.

 

Unless you want to become more "popular" than MPG, then keep on doing what you're doing...

Presenting taoism in a comedic and lighthearted way isn't allowed, because then it's no longer taoism?

Mind blown.

Edit:

Also, let me add that I will never view this site as a popularity contest, so socially bullying me into compliance will not work. Don't even try.

I got it....invest your time in stand up comedy. You have the talent!

 

Then you get will get fans. THEN you can slowly introduce your wisdom to them and they will follow!

 

An alternative to this diploma idea that seems to have fallen through.

...and what am I supposed to do with all those fans and followers?

How do they relate to anything?

Say I walk up to a person and say: "Listen, I think there's something you should know. Just hold on for a moment." Then my fans and followers will rush in to begin setting up the stage for me. Most likely the street we're on has to be cordoned off during the show. There's make-up and lighting and sound checks for the microphones. The first rows will be my closest devotees, and the newcomers will be at the back. Then I'll adress the person from over a crowd of people, and that's how I get my message across when I talk to people from then on.

...because I have a diploma.

Here are some examples of "zen" (rock) gardens (that I carefully selected):

This is how they make me feel:

This is another rock garden:

Do you notice the difference?

I'm in the film maker's union and work on construction sites and meditate on site every single day.

Folks get used to it... some mock it, some admire it, some ignore it, I just breath.

Just sitting and breathing won't drive nails into planks. Maybe if somebody came along and tied some yellow tape around your head, making you a part of a taped-off section, you'd be contributing. Otherwise I see no point travelling to a remote noisy construction site. Construction sites mean electric saws eating through wood, trucks driving around (including that annoying beeping they make when they back up), and possibly asbestos inhalation. You've been thinking about your breathing, but you've never thought about the construction dust you're breathing in?

How to become a taoist master:

- Watch Karate Kid and The Empire Strikes Back.

- Want to sound profound like Mr. Miyagi and Yoda, because you want to be respected for everything you say. If the Dalai Lama can just sit around and sound like Yoda, then that's the easiest job in the world.

- Read a bit about taoism and Wu Wei.

- Learn that everything you do is already part of the Tao, so that must mean that you're already spiritual. Anger, hate, discrimination, people crying when you beat them up, all part of the Tao, so you can't really be not part of the Tao.

- Learn that as the Tao is unnamable and indescribable, nobody else can tell you what Tao is and isn't, because that puts them at fault.

- Practice responding that everything people encounter is part of the Tao. That makes you sound really profound and wise.

- Learn that everything has a buddha nature, so that must mean that you're a buddha. You just have to believe it.

- Learn that zen teachers can beat students with enlightening sticks, and the student will just be grateful and enlightened for it. That must mean that you can go around and enlighten all your enemies with your enlightening stick, conveniently in the shape of a bat. It's a natural thing and part of your spiritual way.

- Learn that Wu Wei is about everything working out automatically, without you really having to lift a finger for it. You just have to reach for that Cola without getting out of your chair, and sooner or later some friend-servant will get annoyed enough to hand it to you: You're a wu wei master!

- Learn that if you call sitting for long periods of time "meditation", people will think you're awesome for doing nothing.

(Of course I'm not serious! *whacks repeatedly with enlightenment stick like Yoda.*)

Well, I cant fault that. I guess if I was you .... ... i would be acting the same as you ... so, If I was you (and still a bit like me) ... I would add to the plan a bit: I would go and help them build the temple. Why wait, why delay your need?

 

Anyway, go and help them build their temple, work with them daily and they will get to know you and experience your level of ... whatever ... maybe even cook for them and supply lunch. By the time the temple is built no one will be laughing at you and there will probably be no need for a test as you will have already passed it. Then they will have ' something to give me to show to people', I'm sure.

 

Maybe when the temple is finally finished and they have been with you every day they may decide to give you what you want, a diploma on paper might not be good enough (one could always loose it ), they may decide to brand you with a red hot seal or something that says 'Enlightened' under it or something.

 

 

 

... or, as you say, just wait until its built. ... what will you do in the meantime?

Building a buddhist temple in the modern day, doesn't mean voluntary monks building it by hand fueled by faith.

They *tried* to do that, but that got our countrys union really upset. They called working for no pay "slave labour" - really scandalous.

...so I'd need a working permit, at least some experience with a nail gun, and I would be expected not to hang around the construction site meditating. Building any sort of housing today, means building code, wall isolation, lifting cranes, showing up to work on time, and doesn't mean anything spiritually. Common people have already been hired to do that, and common people are hired to make lunch for them. It is illegal in my country to not do it for money.

What is your plan for a decent diploma, with actual testing of your level/abilities included?

Like I said: I'm just going to wait for the buddhist temple in my vicinity to be built, and then go there, tell them that I'm enlightened, have them laugh at me for a bit, then ask to be tested, and hopefully they have some sort of a test (that doesn't just involve a staring contest, because I don't trust those). After that I reckon they'll have something to give me to show to people.

Why not join an organisation that will give you a real fancy one ?

 

[pic]

 

But if you prefer an 'Eastern Tradition' .....

 

[pic]

...because people don't take those kind of diplomas seriously.

Look, I already have a plan to get a good and valid diploma, so thank you for all your diplomas, because I know that it takes time and effort to look them up and make them, but I don't think I need just a random diploma from the internet. ...but thank you anyway.

A monk asked, "Does a diploma have a Buddha-nature or not?"

The master said, "Not [Mu]!"

No, Joshu said "Without!" in a way that was without yes or no. He basically responded "Empty!".

A dog is believed to have a buddha nature, by the way, so would Joshu have answered simply "No!", he would have been simply wrong.

I knew it was different than a buddha..

You certainly may have the personality of a Buddha or a Bodhisattwa, but that doesn't mean you have their energies (or that doesn't mean you are one)

 

BTW are you doing some practices?

I know. That's why I'd like to test my energies. I don't like to claim something if I'm actually not, because I didn't invent all these offical definitions.

No, I'm not doing any practices besides re-solving koans I've already solved, just to keep my mind fresh. I had these ideas of how the universe was when I was a kid, about fetters and how I shouldn't have them. Then more and more strange things started to happen. For instance, I felt as if the walls, roof and floor or my mind flew away, and that I was floating, and the walls didn't come back, so I had to adapt. I lost my self too. This was even before I read about eastern religion. Then I began to see suffering, and people understood me less and less because I always wanted to tell them what they didn't know. I guess people don't like my authority either. These past months I've just been drifting in and out of a meditative state. I'm not even doing anything. It just happens naturally.

I had some other ideas where this could be moved to... .

Could you be respectful instead? It's not my fault that people want to fill the thread with clever remarks. Ask them to stop trolling me instead. I didn't ask for white tigers and glowing seals, and you know it.

Is this a Tao forum or a mental institution ? Or both ?

Well at least he's not talking about John Chang, superpowers, 'high level' chi kung, silk pyjamas etc etc.

So you're saying that you'd have to be insane to believe in enlightenment, or enlightened people? ...and that all that you can ever aspire to be, is a practitioner of health techniques?

Well, a diploma is such an immaterial object, why you are so attached to it....???

Immaterial? I'm guessing you mean "unimportant", and not "spiritual".

I'm not "attached" to it in that way. I'm choosing it. I've chosen to make people understand.

Enlightened people sort of project themselves from Nirvana, with projected "attachments".

Also when you're dealing with the material world, you need material things.

If I choose to unlock my material door, I need a material key. Maybe in the future I could unlock it with the power of my mind, but I'm not even going to try that.

IceDude, you've been here for 2 days and you are already trolling?!

An internet quiz told you you are a Buddha and you go crazy..

At least stop pretending to be serious, if you haven't notice it makes you look like a fool.

 

I really hope you are just trolling and not being serious

Actually it was a bodhisattwa, not a buddha, but the test maxed out, so I don't know if I'm a buddha or not.

Of course I'm serious. I'm enlightened. I just don't know how enlightened I am, because that's up to definitions and stuff.

I'm sorry, but I'm being serious. In my very first post in the lounge, I mentioned having "delusions of enlightenment".

I figured you could be serious about it too, because it isn't a warm and fuzzy feeling you get from reading that when you're simply you, you're this holy dude that people should gather round. It's cool to be enlightened up to a point. It's cool to be skilled at something. Then it gets creepy and weird, and people stop understanding you, and when you actually begin to read, scriptures say weird things about things you think is completely normal. Then it isn't a warm and fuzzy feeling anymore. Then it's kind of dreadful.

>Why is this in the "General Discussion" section btw? Shouldn't it be in the "Off topic"?

There's a buddhism section, but I figured that since I get the Tao as well, I might as well ask for *any* kind of test or diploma. Shinto is a pretty cool religion as well. I doubt I'm a kami, though.

I wondered where they were. Can you go and check that they are still there. I think there's a lot of people will want to borrow them. Or at least have a look.

There is seemingly no end to your cleverness today.

Now, you got your diploma and become enlightened with 1.b in red. What are you going to do with your diploma(an attachment) now?

Until you enter final nirvana, you always have *some* attachments to the material. Bodhisattwas are arhats with an attachment to teach. Even Buddha had an attachment to teach. However, these sort of attachments are voluntary. When you enter Nirvana you let go of all attachment, but after that, to exit Nirvana again, you have to reattach attachments again.

Also, buddhisms definition of Nirvana is about letting go of attachments as well. There are ten fetters that you have to remove before you become an arhat.

I agree about the babies with flesh wounds ... I mean eeewww! I always say just take them away. But in the end what you're not getting is it's about compassion raw and simple. Seems to me you just want the enlightenment paper and are scared of what it means. The circus, the clowns ... what are you going to do sit in a darkened room and stare at your diploma ... not speak to anyone, not be touched on any level? in any way? by anything? that's not nirvana that's just a prison.

Well, if the test really shows that I'm Maitreya Buddha, then I guess that's what I'll be doing. It's nothing that would scare me - it's just nothing I meant to do with getting a piece of paper. ...but I'd bring some sort of pope-mobile with me, and an ambulance on standby, just in case my "super powers" "fail". If people believe I have super powers, I'll give it a shot. I've never actually *tried* healing a flesh wound on a baby before, so maybe I'll surprise myself. I'm not making any sort of promises though.

...but it's like if you're a math genius, that doesn't necessarily mean that you'd want to work with math. Maybe you want to play baseball instead. Sure, if I'm really some destined guy who people need to do stuff, then I can't disappoint them, but I don't think I'm particularly motivated to save the world, compared to Greenpeace activists.

Edit:

Again: My diploma wouldn't be a sense of achievement.

Let's say that you don't know your height, and that rulers were really rare. Then one day someone say "Woah! You're higher than that truck! That's really, really high! I hear that if you're exactly 2 meters tall, you get a million dollars and a licence to wear sunglasses in public!"

...so then you begin asking around for a ruler, and you get to your own post claiming that if you got a ruler, you'd just stay couped up in your darkened room, staring mesmerized at the ruler.

I've had the four noble truths hanging in the hallway for quite some time now. They're important rules to live by. I've never once felt mesmerized by them, or pointed them out to anybody. In case someone came around and asked me what the four noble truths were, I could use it as a reference, but that's about as much of a role that that physical picture plays in my life.

You aren't looking for free handouts of diplomas for greater spiritual growth than you presently have, so no I'm not asking you, I'm asking sree Icedude.

Yes, you got me. I'm totally "sree". I don't know if it's some forum member, or the color blue in pali, but why not? I'm sree. The almighty sree. Spread the word: Sree is back and more beautiful than ever. You guys don't believe in enlightenment, but like all forums you do believe in forum legends being with you forever. I mean where else would they go but hang around you guys as sockpuppets? ...so I'm sree. I couldn't fool you guys for long. You're too clever for that. All bow before the mighty sree.

"Nirvana refers to the imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished." And you definitely don't have desires or delusions, right..

Nirvana is not something you achieve with one month of "training" and a person who has achieved it is definitely not too lazy to get up from the chair

Are you for real? You just quoted the definition of being enlightened as meaning a stillness of mind, that has extinguished desire, and then you picture the buddha as an energetic guy, that certainly wouldn't do things like sit and starve under a tree until he was practically dragged to his feet by other people. Wow. In your quest to discredit me, you sure went to some lengths there.

Omg....tiger mutant....lolol

Well, it was actually a lion mutant. I remembered it wrong.

Meh......With real ability certification is not required.

If you can manifest your power then you manifest your power......

So if I'm really good at flying airplanes, I can just go and ask for a plane, and they'll go: "Well, if you're as good as you *say* you are, we better let you prove yourself, so here's a plane. Hey, if you can manifest your flying, or maybe manifest an airplane, then that'd be great too."

Enlightenment isn't a physical manifestation.

Obviously if he had any power he wouldn't spend all day everyday trolling TTBs .

I hear that most people who attain enlightenment, are hired by the sitting industry, and make lots of money. People use them as traffic cones, exclusive statues, armchairs...

Also, in case you didn't notice, I'm surrounded by white tigers and glowing seals at this point. There are lots of trolls in this thread, and I'm not one of them.

However, buddha and all the zen masters were master trolls, so it kind of depends on what you mean by trolling.

Its an investment. Once you've got the diploma you write a book, give talks, do a lecture tour ... make heaps of money. So for a small fee now you win later. As for people who have no money ... well its a beacon of hope for them to pray for.

Why is it always about money and fame? I don't know what's going on in the "buddha industry", but it sounds really horrible if there are so many greedy gurus that people *equal* enlightenment with money. Enlightenment is about as far away from money as you can get, and as for fame, I imagine my first "tour" would mean travelling to India to get touched by random strangers who think I'm blessing them, and mothers bringing me babies with fatal flesh wounds asking me to heal them.

I'm asking for a test and a piece of paper. I'm not asking for a whole guru circus.

Or he would have manifested his own diploma, complete with glowing gold-foil seal.

 

(Not to be confused with glowing seals -- they are exceedingly rare... http://amberpagewrites.com/wp-content/uploads/glow-pet-seal2.png)

Well, I bet Mahayana buddhists would agree with you. They pretty much think that buddhahood gives you super powers. I haven't noticed any super powers yet - at least not physical ones - but maybe I need some sort of super hero training for that to happen. I'm not counting on it, but there's this whole religion believing that I'm gonna, so I'm not gonna argue.

That's a shame you would have got a diploma.

What of all the enlightened people who don't have money then? They won't get diplomas? No, that won't do. There needs to be some kind of kickstarter diploma fund for all these guys, that can pay the course fee.

Well done you gained a B plus in your first test and you may continue to stage 2 provided you pay the course fee of 129$ (flat rate or by instalment plan) - we do not issue certificates until stage 7.

 

Thank you for submitting your results.

A course fee? I'm not looking to attend any class courses, and I don't have any income, so I can't afford that. Sorry.

 

Test.

 

1. Are you or have you ever been enlightened?

 

Ans. a) no, b ) yes and c) don't know.

 

2. Did you in former life have your head chopped off by King Asoka?

 

Ans. a) no , b ) don't know c) nnnmmmmghhh

 

3) Do you shave your head and chant in Sanskrit of Pali?

 

Ans. a ) OM b ) no c ) what's Pali?

 

4) Are you aware that being a monk involves a vow of chastity and refraining from alcohol.

 

Ans. a) yes, b ) no c) shit you're kidding look it was my birthday and things got out of hand.

1. b

2. a

3. b

4. a

(I'm not looking to be a monk. I hear monks don't get to have internet connections.)

Thank you for testing me.