Icedude

I was hoping for this thread to die down, but as it's evidently not going to, here's what I'm going to do:

I'm going to make a thread in my Icedude cultivation subforum in a minute, where you can continue any discussions you may have with me, about diplomas or otherwise. I'll link to it in this post afterwards. I'm going to sleep soon, but that's where I'm going to post my next answer to these things when I wake up. You don't have to continue any discussions over there if you don't want to - it's just in case you have something left to say to me. I'm relocating because I don't want this insignificant topic to crown an official subforum.

Then I'm going to ask the mods to have this topic locked. If they won't agree to that, I'm going to rename the first post here into basically "This is the general Taoist discussion chat. Feel free to talk about anything you want.". If you really want to take over this thread with derailment, and want to have somewhere to discuss general things, then you can have it. I don't mind.

...so good night.

Edit:

Here's a link to the new topic:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34229-discuss-things-with-icedude/

A good way to deal with the Ego is to stop feeding it.

You know what, troll? I kind of agree with you at this point. I solved my issue a few pages back, and all I'm doing now, is small talking. I'm considering setting up a discussion thread at my journal instead, so people can go there if they want something. We'll see. I give this thread a few hours more to die down on its own.

im glad you determined that those whom you perceive as poking jibes at your OP and subsequent posts have no context.

 

next question, then, is: Since you affirm that such posts have no context, why do you keep insisting on stacking them up, as if they all have a valid part to play in this topic? If truly they are without context, why would you even bother to respond, sometimes with a fair amount of gusto even?

 

Trying to understand.

Because I don't believe in not feeding the trolls. I think that's a very cruel practice. I believe in feeding the trolls a healthy diet of discussion. Usually that turns them into normal people.

Rubbish! That's not why I am still here at all. I like some of the things you have come up with. When you are under pressure you can say sill things, but at times I get a glimmer of something. Plus I like the jokes and you DO have a sense of humour at times. Perhaps under pressure you will lay a diamond instead of an egg?

 

I may be mistaken but I assumed that one on their 'last lap' might not be so worried about the ribbing ?

 

Like: your ideas about the hanged man ... I got what you said (with variation) and then you did the same back to me - with further variation ... yes, I see your point - we started going somewhere on a deeper level (that could have been seen as one of the more bizarre things you said - but I related to it .) But then you said we couldnt compare symbols ... but we did for a moment.

 

And I find the best defence in mystical matters against taking one's self too seriously is a sense of humour.

 

Waiting ......

Would I be worried about any of you, I wouldn't be humoring you.

Yes, we did actually compare symbols, but it's futile to derive anything from such comparisons, as symbols are rooted in individual conceptions. If you ask somebody else, he could describe the same thing in completely different terms.

It's not really that "mystical" to me. This isn't the same as symbolism magic. The ultimate truth isn't a trance state. It's the opposite. It's like being sober.

You're suggesting the insult policy not be enforced because members ought to be tough and take their verbal blows like men? As if that was some kind of mark of character.

 

Well I don't like it. I want to hold to the policy as written, not because I am some sort of wuss, but because holding ourselves to a high standard of civility fosters the kind of productive interchange of ideas that makes this forum worthwhile. Allowing a wild west free-for-all, on the other hand, leads to, well, this.

 

Liminal

Liminal, you are promoting shutting somebody up for a week, at minimum, for him calling somebody stupid, under any circumstances, seemingly even under circumstances like "You're not stupid.". You are saying that there should be a "high standard of civility" that you want to hold, in a taoist forum, all while ignoring the full onslaught that's going on about diplomas.

I don't even have to call you anything. I think your stance speaks for itself, whether you're just playing innocent, or you fully believe that.

Then perhaps you could consider my comments constructive about other testing ? That is why I carefully responded to you as I did, so you might take it in a constructive way. I even highlighted the dynamic where people can take it that way , or have an instant affront to it or take offence.

 

Could your apparent skim reading and conclusions of what some posts are saying here reflect on your 'ability' to skim read and come to conclusions in other matters , including books on mysticism and philosophy ?

Look, I can play your game too, where I very carefully and friendly question your sanity and other talents, and have you drown in a swamp of defenses after I pick apart everything you say, using very kind words. Do you think you're some kind of genius for trying that on me? Come at me straight or not at all.

Isn't hanging upside down from the sky symbolism ? Most 'mystical' , spiritual, or ( insert name here) communications are 'symbolism' .... its a basic precept of mysticism. To be eclectic is to compare those symbols; not the outward form but 'that which generated' the symbolic arrangement in the first place.

When you're comparing symbolism, prepositions are like adjectives: They vary from imagination to imagination. Up and down, against and from, can mean the same thing. That's why you can't make an accurate comparison of symbolisms.

But ... but .... wont you miss us ?

No.

I wouldnt know what you 'hear' . However , I said you were not very tricky in conversation (although you may think you are) .

Bah. I'm trying to speak clearly, and you think I'm being tricky. Be glad I'm not being tricky with you.

Thats neat, being able to take a good one square on the jaw. In the same vein, what you deem as those poking fun regarding your need for concrete validation of your enlightened state (if there is such a state, but i digress...) can also be viewed as constructive, no? Not being smart here, just trying to tie my shoelaces properly.

Well, there's a difference. "Stupid" has a context.

These "fun pokers" have been trolling for over ten pages now, and don't really know when to give up. They're hoping that I either cry or get angry enough to say something that warrants a ban, and judging by me getting warned for simply saying "stupid", I'd say that the mods are standing by, eager to ban me as well. That's completely destructive behavior.

However, what the flame-baiting trolls are disguising themselves as, is people who's just having a laugh, and even that disguise is wearing thin when they've been doing it for over ten pages, so even as "plain innocent jokers", they don't contribute to anything - they're not being constructive.

Boy, on the other hand, is stating a fact that you at least can build something constructive out of.

Call a member stupid, on the other hand--now those are fighting words. (And no he doesn't get a free pass for giving the insult some convoluted syntactic spin. "I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid"--please.)

Bah. I was just called stupid by Boy, and I only considered it constructive.

You guys are weaksauce, and you can put that in your report.

I'm not complaining, brother! I've enjoyed large parts of this thread and you speak well.

Thank you. I try.

To be perfectly honest I can't remember very much about your first post (we are on page 18 after all). You don't like jokes and this is to be a serious and deep topic, that is noted. The problem is that this is an open forum where we are all free to express ourselves within some rules about insults and so on (very light rules but rules all the same) and although you did start this thread, it is not actually your thread, in the same way as when people talk the person who started the conversation doesn't control what other people may say especially some time later. So this is a level playing field where all views hold equal weight. And while I don't actually hold the view that your diploma idea is in itself a joke, if I did, there would be nothing preventing me from saying so. That's just how it is here (which you may or may not already know). I hope you are not offended by me pointing this out.

No, I obviously like jokes, otherwise I wouldn't have joined in at times. It's just that if you find that you can't stop beating a dead horse over and over again, then maybe you could be doing something more meaningful. Some people laugh when they're nervous or scared, and no matter how timid I'd like to be, I am a scary dude if you take me seriously. I feel like I'm intruding everywhere I go. All I can do is apologize for myself.

This "freedom of expression" doesn't really go as far as harassment, so some of you guys are breaking the rules by making fun of me. You are only free to do so because I allow you to. Further, this is my thread in the sense that I've set the topic, and made a request, so changing the topic (like making mindless puns) is spam. If you want random topics, there's a chat, and there can probably be a chat thread as well if you make one. I'm tempted to make a "How enlightened is Icedude really?" thread, but I figure one huge thread about me is plenty.

@Icedude: So you left nirvana to get a diploma? Seems stupid.

Well, yes - it is. Everything you choose to do, is stupid. So what? Can't I be stupid? Do I have to be "the clever Buddha guy"? Every adventure begins with doing stupid things. Adventures are cool.

No ... that makes MORE sense;

 

Except you are suspended against (not from) or amidst a construction of subjective building blocks within the sky. What you are suspended from and how you are suspended is quiet different.

 

[Picture]

Dude, it's symbolism. Comparing symbolism is like comparing imaginary friends.

...but no. If I'm even interpreting your symbolism correctly, I think what you are describing is somebody who has reached Nirvana a few times - stream-enterers. I think I'm "on my last reincarnation". Once I die, I simply collapse back into Nirvana. I've sort of lost my self inside Nirvana. I think it's called "arahant". It's something completely different.

I enjoy what you write ... and I just join in in my own little way ... I find humour jolly and refreshing. Sorry if you don't like it. Not intended to offend in any way.

It's just that I wanted this to be a serious and deep topic. I haven't kept up with who made what joke, but if you're going to joke, at least make the jokes meaningful. It seems many have reached a point where their jokes are just "Diploma!" now, like they are choking on laughing gas. Some are joking about how I don't have a brain. There's no depth in it. I think I said that it was somewhat silly in my very first post, didn't I?

Yeah, stay true to you name. The dude who is ice cool. (Don't get yourself in trouble.)

In my introductory post in Lounge, I actually mention how people are suckers for names. Coming up with a name when you have no self, is quite a task. It usually takes a day to come up with something abstract enough that you think you're clear from people forming a name-based opinion of you.

...but no, apparently I'm "the guy who should watch my mouth, or we'll shoot you" now. Luckily there's a simple option to change my name if I come up with something better.

Jimi Hendrix ? But he could demonstrate his own particular 'natural skill' .... there is more required than being 'tricky in conversation' , although you aren't too good at that either.

I hear you haven't studied zen, if you think I'm tricky in conversation.

And I am the guy that tries to cover up my insults am I ?

Yeah, pretty much.

I think the difference here, is that I'm not reporting you guys for ridiculing me, because I don't take offense if you guys make clowns out of yourselves. Yes, it's borderline spam as well, but I'll tolerate it for now.

Unfortunately correct.

Well don't look at me. It's not like I'm tickling you.

YouTube link

It's like learning how to play a guitar, and then reading a book on how to play a guitar: The book is completely useless to you.

No ... I think thats a bus driver.

 

 

.... dang ! How am I going to 'have a nice day' if they wont be allowed to tell me to do that anymore ?

I think you get what I'm trying to say here, regardless. Crucifying Jesus was "knocking him down a peg or two". I can manage my self-doubt fine without "help". It's not me being crazy. It's you wanting to think that I am.

I did ... but you didnt answer them, just got defensive and started assuming all sorts of things about me (like atheism) and assuming everyone here thought like me and we mock you because we are jealous of your superiority (to the 'common man' )

I'll try as best as I can to describe it to you, but I don't think it will be enough:

I dissolved my subjective concepts, or had them dissolved for me, and as they dissolved into nothing but awareness, my awareness came to halt in the place that you call Nirvana. From there I exited by rebuilding myself: By stacking subjective concepts upon subjective concepts, fully knowing that I can collapse them back into Nirvana at any time.

If I visualize it symbolically, which probably makes even less sense, it's like hanging up side down from the sky, constructed of building blocks that you can take apart.

This is the mod announcement you may of missed:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34203-in-light-of-my-mod-squad-attack-and-argument-on-the-taoism-board/?p=533900

Ah, it seems you're the one who missed something, because Trunk later added this:

 

~~~ admin statement ~~~

 

After reading TheExaltedRonin's thread TBH, this site is quite useless in taoist forms, and various of his posts elsewhere, my comment is this:

Decide to contribute positive quality to this forum

or move on to elsewhere.

 

That's my single warning in this matter. I don't have patience for further. (And, this is independent and in addition to whatever the mod team decides to do.) I'm moving to more of a general position of policy to more efficiently clear out those who post negatively in this forum, to make a safer kinder space for those that want to share in an open eclectic atmosphere.

 

- Trunk

 

~~~ /admin out ~~~

TER was put on restricted posting (essentially cannot post but can PM)...

 

His suspension will be two weeks which means he will not be able to PM.

Oh. I was going by the mod announcement in the thread, but maybe that changed afterwards.

I get the feeling we've met somewhere before...

Cool.

i dont know anything about koans but from what i have gathered from icedude is they must be a type of word play puzzle, and the words must be used in a very literal sense. he gets that a diploma is also a form of communication but he fails to see how pictures, videos, songs or other symbollism is of any communicativeuse.(words are themselves symbols, but i digress)

i will gather that english is not icedude's primary language and this is why he is rudimentary with his language and puzzle solving skills or lack of ability to recognize abstract thoughts/concepts. or else he is maybe 14 or 15 and needs further education and perhaps a high school diploma is what he is after. i failed myself by giving icedude credit for having a sense of humor, bad misread on my part. i also realize that he has no understanding of semiotics or interpersonal communications.

i will accept that he can only be rude and resort to insults when challeged at the basic level of debative discourse and he becomes the only member here of thousands i have encountered that i find such value in his posting that he makes my ignore list(a list of 1)

can someone tell me where to find the ignore button? ive never needed it b4

Keep searching. Wouldn't want you to learn something.

What you are giving away telephone directories.

There's just no end to the comedy.

Personally, I don't focus much energy on the TTC because I consider it to be talking about something which can and should be experienced. I find some of the imagery very useful, however, and I have read several interpretations -- and read it more than a few times over the last thirty years or so.

Exactly: The TTC is about something. Well, "everything", but we get what we're saying.

The statement that "basically the pages all say the same thing in different wording to me" reflects more on you than on the book, in my opinion, and isn't something I would consider to be a bragging point.

I'm too enlightened to brag.

My two points with which you have taken exception come from your own post -- you referred to the TTC as "...essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom" and in the next sentence you spoke about how you like to solve koans (a detail you have mentioned more than once). I assumed (apparently falsely) that "a guy" would be "human" and that you actually had read said koans -- I didn't mention "books."

I just took "going to the bathroom" as an example. ...as in "doing the dishes", or "breathing". A common thing you do every day.

Of course I've read said koans - I don't get what you mean now.

You are mistaken in your evaluation of the insult, though. The insult comes from your phraseology rather than from the target of your sniping taking personal your identification of an "objective truth." My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but I added to it while you were typing your response. Rather than asking you to scroll up and read it, I'll repeat it here:

 

Or, you could simply have said "I don't put the same level of importance on the TTC that you do."

I don't see any difference between that and "I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid." in terms of level of offensive. ...but maybe it's because "appear" is relative to me. I meant "appear to yourself", not "appear to me". Does that clear things up?

Edit:

It's exactly like saying "Please don't take this the wrong way.", and I get warned for saying "the wrong way".

Seriously?

 

So, your sentence was:

 

"I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that."

 

How about something along the lines of:

 

"I know you've put a great deal of effort into reading and understanding the TTC but I really can't discuss it as I never bothered reading it because I thought it was boring and reminiscent of human excrement (even though I didn't actually read it, mind you). Instead, I read something completely different which I believe to be superior and, because of that (and the fact that I am already enlightened), I choose to look down my nose at those who place any significance on the TTC."

 

The Tao Te Ching is not "human excrement". If you want to put it that way, it's "enlightened excrement". It's like reading a phonebook: It has its uses, but only if you're looking to call somebody. Basically the pages all say the same thing in different wording to me, while at the same time it's all really fascinating and complex to you. If you've read ten pages of it, and actually get it, you've read it all. It's just more of the same. I read a lot of it, but it's like reading a lot of the phonebook: I'd be mad to read it all.

The thing is that people get insulted by this because they see it as disrespectful toward the TTC and them not getting it. ...but it's more like me being the only one with legs, refusing to sit in a wheelchair to get around.

I don't read other books. I try to find references to texts that mention something complex and relevant to the higher levels of enlightenment, because that's the valuable stuff to me.

I also take it that you can't really phrase my words more politely. The actual insult comes from him taking objective truth on the matter personally, no matter how it's put. ...but I'm not even sure that the report was honest to begin with.

I don't buy your argument. Appears to me you are projecting your own opinion onto these old guys. No, you didn't phrase it as them having a reason against it because it seems you have decided they were really for it yet didn't mention it because they didn't see a point in it. As opposed to all the other stuff they mentioned which they expected the "common people" to immediately embrace?

 

EDIT: Of course, I could be mistaken. After all, I am just a common person and not an enlightened one.

I just don't see how that was relevant at the time. The months immediately following Buddhas death things happened among his followers which he didn't predict in the slightest, which came to shape Buddhism forever. He never even figured his own teachings would survive enough to be needed to be put down on paper.

icedude , why resort to insults? that is bad form on your part. or does it reveal your level of enlightenment?

when I see someone resort to insults as their way of continuing their argument , I see it as a form of resignation. I am kinda disappointed that you choose to give up so easily. oh well

***Steward's Comment***

This language is inappropriate.

***End Steward's Comment***

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Warning ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Icedude this is a warning for a personal insult which is against the terms of service of this site, any more insults and you will be immediately suspended.

Further action on this issue may be taken when the other mods log in

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bah.

Explain to me how there would be a better and kinder way to phrase that. I tried to be as polite and respectful as I could. What part of "I'm sorry" was lost on you?

Meanwhile, if we are going to talk "insults", why don't you warn every single one of the people bringing up diplomas as a joke on this site? It's a running joke about me being stupid, isn't it? At the very least, if he's going to be this petty (if that's an allowed word) you can warn him about any jokes he might have done.

...so I can't take the warning seriously. How could I? There was just no kinder way to phrase that.

...but maybe I'm wrong. If you can come up with a more polite phrasing, I'll believe you. Was it the actual word "stupid"? Is "less gifted" better? Bah, I say. Why don't you go witchhunt the diploma jokers instead, if you want something to do?

Diploma for enlightenment?

Does anyone actually know what a buddha should have?

And what a proclaimed buddha should be able to do?

It goes by the attainment not what is on paper.

This makes the spiritual heir and Spiritual master of a school.

Attainment (heaven) Title (earth)

To have the power in spirit and on earth according to the laws of the land.

Title and attainment in this sense is paired.

When these 2 are seperated the school or sect suffers.

Titles like doors locks and so on also have a spiritual meaning.

Titles can also have spiritual power as well.

This isnt an easy subject to understand. Some things exist in this world for a reason.

You can have a very high level of enlightenment but no divine title to teach and bring others to enlightenment.

There could be a few reasons for this.......

But it basically means that the thread you developed in isnt what heaven wants others to develop in.

This could be due to where you live or the family line you come from or it just isnt that time in history yet.

As teachers you cant enlighten someone you can only help guide them.

it is this way so someone doesnt owe you for their enlightenment. There is suppose to be no ego in this.....

For a student to come to you at the right time in your life and his life and for the student to be a right match for the art and master does not happen by chance......

Those who think that you can just get a diploma for enlightenment and from that point enlighten others truley does not understand things.....

You show a good level of understanding.

The thing is that teaching is less spiritual than being enlightened. The want to teach isn't inside Nirvana. ...and as teaching is tied to earth, it begins to need earthly things to work. Spiritually, a diploma isn't that beautiful, but it may still be necessary.

You did well with my questions, but realized I am not a diploma giving institute so I won't ask anymore. Too bad you didn't want a trophy. I have several categories to choose from: there is a karate guy who could be a Super Saiyan, but I think something from the balls section would be most apt, for bouncing between heaven and earth.

 

I did go to Coursera and look for you, but did not find Nirvana there. There is Buddhism and Modern Psychology from Princeton University and Buddhist Meditation in The Modern World from University of Virginia. These give certificates and may be as close as you can get with criteria free and from the couch.

 

I am considering signing up for A Beginner's Guide to Irrational Behavior. Hoping this might be helpful in my continuing quest to be a good and dedicated moderator here Unless it's a how-to guide, then I might get fired. Bring me a dromedary!

 

The courses are pretty good. My sons and I are partly through How It Works, which is basic physics and laws of motion. I have an irrational little geek girl crush on the professor, mostly because I find it quite charming how much he seems to love telling people about this stuff. Also, he does have diplomas.

Thank you. (I'm unsure of if you are putting me on, because it actually sounds helpful in a way.)

@Icedude

 

Not sure if you will get to read this but in response, yes, I understand Lao Tzu and Buddha to not have concerned themselves with organisations, rather than opposing the idea of future ones.

 

But Buddha (Siddharta) opposed Brahmin and other ascetics, right? It seems interesting that he was said to actually gain enlightenment, and then make the point of encouraging people to seek truth from within, rather than listening to preachers blindly. But now we hear all sorts of things taught about in Buddhist, and Taoist religion that often become more dogmatic.

 

I think these are the dangers of a lot of people who use titles in the Buddhist and Taoist context.

 

I like Buddha's teachings, and Lao Tzu's. But I think they would be rolling their eyes at a lot of things found in the "religions" people have made for them.

Let me put it this way: Buddha used words in order to be understood. ...in the language of his country. Today people communicate their knowledge with diplomas too. It's the language of most of the world. They're all unspiritual tools to communicate something spiritual.

So what I mean is, how do you know domeone giving you the diploma isn't full if shit? That would be annoying for the actually enlightened to be knighted by a delusional idiot.

 

I had a lecturer at university once that was covering social media marketing. I often found myself teaching him more than he taught me. That was annoying...so I left for another course. Screw that degree, the paper didn't mean a thing at that point.

At some level there needs to be trust for the teacher, yes. That's the same reason to why I'm not accepting diplomas from users at this forum: I don't trust their wisdom.

"Funny, funny."

have you even spent any time on those sub- forums to see where we are already on TTB?

of you just chose to come on in and sharing your 'enlightenment' upon us?

Tao Te Ching bores me. I don't remember if I read it all the way through that week I borrowed it, or fell asleep half-way through. It's essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom. I'd rather solve koans, because at least they pose some kind of a challenge to me at times. I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that.

It's probably a long way to the top for most people, and I wish you good luck, but it's not for me.

"Also, there's no point to all these huge pictures and videos."

if there wasn't I wouldn't have posted them.

Phrase yourself in words when possible.

have you even read genesis? or the ancient greeks? how about kant?

" We never have direct experience of things, the noumenal world, and what we do experience is the phenomenal world as conveyed by our senses"

What does biblical genesis have to do with anything? I don't believe in the christian god.

(Then again I can be Jesus with amnesia. I've never tried to part the oceans, or turn water into wine, but I sincerely doubt that I can.)

Look, it's great that you read lots of books and learn lots of things, that's really great, but some people don't need to do that. They already know that, or they've already learned that without reading.

Phrase which comes to mind for me is "power tempered by knowledge, knowledge tempered by wisdom -- wisdom of an for the Light."

"an" what? An ambulance? An orange?

I just quoted this because I like the image. Actually I think there would be a huge queue in front of the Buddha just because people would want to look at him and give him their cash ... never mind the burgers and fires.

 

"Om ... how can I help you?"

"BuddhaMac with fries and coffee to go."

"Can I explain the Four Noble Truths while you wait for your order?"

".....er .... no thanks but I'll have some ketchup please."

"Have a nice incarnation!"

No, there wouldn't, because there's a rule that says something like "employees are not supposed to talk to customers" or something like that. ...and if there wasn't, one would shortly be invented in order to serve more burgers and put out more fires.

wisdom and knowledge are 2 different things.

So you'd be okay with schools of wisdom then? ...with diplomas for wisdom?

Also, there's no point to all these huge pictures and videos.