Chainer

The Golden Flower is a fave of mine as passive systems go, so thought I'd respond. So much that could be said but to keep it simple... 2 keys (for me at least): - In all passive systems you have to turn off or at least down you ego as much as you can, ie practise holding gently onto a compassionate mind set whilst breathing. The instructions for doing this in the Golden flower are useless for the Anglo Saxon mindset as we has no sense of Xin. Therefore if you have no idea what that is then simply remember when you last felt a deep sense of relief, that you avoided something bad, to the point you even wanted to hug everyone! Thats the gateway state to a genuine sense of compassion, which has to happen 'too' you rather than be created from memory. Its the key to the release of the mental tension that will stop your qi dead in its tracks. - Pronounced flex forward of your actual coccyx on inhale, the true root lock. To be clear this is not tensing your pelvic floor or related muscles (that the guidance they give people who can't move their tail), you must learn how to use this to hold and direct your qi appropriately. If you cant move your tail forward, learn. I struggled for years with all kinds of crap advice with roots locks and RAB systems until I lucked out and found a decent teacher. And the difference in what happens is (quite literally) night and day. Lastly remember not to get fixated on movement in and around your LDT, its a passing stage. If you truly want to experience it then would recommend really opening and relaxing your KUA, which for most westerners is all about stretching your inner thigh. Butterfly stretch done last thing at night over a couple of months worked for me in the end. Gurgling and pulsing in your abdomen is as likely to be last nights pasta sauce as it is to be the rotation of your LDT. Only genuine sign of that rotation I know is a slight tugging or mild pain point when it starts to move and you may have gone through that without noticing a long time ago. What you are really looking for is the 2nd circulation of light, the actual secret ie when you see a rotating patch of light that over time turns into something resembling the Ying Yang symbol with a slow but steady rotation, then you know you are getting some where. You will see this after meditation first as a rule, but it varies. Anyway hope that helps you - and hope you are ready for it.

Not sure this is the right place to ask??? however have a question re a practise stage Damo Mitchell refers to as 'Crushing the Shen', diagram pg269 of WMOMP covers my experiences. Happy to share my visual experiences outside of what he has written in terms of validation if requested. Specifically this experience now happens in a random way with some force, outside of any practise, (last one was during Spain/Portugal world cup game!) but have not progressed for a year or so. Wonder if a teacher can clarify what it means, give me better advice on next steps or who been through this themselves please? Some brief background - have practise Zen and Damo's instructions for 30 years, gone through various stages, but now only really practise 9 bottled wind (the original Tibetan form) and white skeleton as are they are far more powerful than anything else. Last big break through came after lots of doing a lot of fa yin/yogic stretching, particularly the regular twice daily practise of the 5 Rights. Have posted on this forum before many years ago re RAB and got some very good advice so hoping for same again.

Have been through a couple of weeks of discussions re martial arts RAB method and have a way forward. Sadly I'm not able to post it in its 'original' version. However have found a very similar technique online and therefore will post this - its basically a modified 'Breath of Fire' method, but its very specific. Also have found a published ref to mid/late stage Zen technique (much to the surprise of many) - its called 'Bamboo breathing', so can incorporate this. These 2 will get you the whole practice, with one tiny element missing, which does not matter to a huge extent (its martial arts specific and comes down to intensity). From this point forward I'll refer to it as 'Fire Breath'. To keep everyone happy I'm going to repost this as a new thread, outside of this beginners section. Also I'm going to put a substantial warning label on the front of the method - its REALLY not for beginners. Have just agreed the basic text of this, sadly its all a bit dramatic but would be interested in the feedback so will do it anyway. 2 interesting points on the method - to drive rapid rotation of the LDT - - Its in 2 stages, has a focused practiced (max 1-2hrs a day) and a maintenance practice (all the rest of the time, as able). - its about as 'forced' a practice as its gets, to be clear you are driving the forward rotation of your LDT, all the time. Lastly - many people, who are not fit or martial artists will struggle with it, specifically you need substantial core strength/tone in your abs to be able to do this. If you are used to deep lower abdominal breathing it will be a very hard initially.

Hi all Older male seeker from Kinsale, Co Cork ireland, looking for help and advice on specific energy practices. Also happy to answer 'real world' questions to best of my ability and level of development. Take my practice seriously, read and done a lot over last 20 years, after my interest in this was bought on by sureal experiences in my youth, seemingly caused by a head injury, playing with an old electric shock machine for several years, and finaly having to learn to control and absorb my fierce, red mist temper in my early teens. Huge fan of Damo Mitchell's work, and have moved over from largely medative Rinzai Zen practices to Daosim/Nei Gong energy body work because of his writings, in last couple of years. Have made progress, but only since Damo's books do I understand this progress in in any sort of seqeunce in terms of its actual manifestations. His work has also enabled me to understand Zen so much better. Looking forward to it.

Not at all, be assured I was grateful for your input, very focused on the RAB tricks and techniques at min. Hopefully I'll be able to put up another method with feedback in short term. Just trying to explain my own attitude toward Daoist practice at the moment, otherwise it would perhaps come across as rushed and unwise, whereas its actually a disciplined approach to solve a problem, is all.

Yep, it is a real shame that we have only the personal interpretation of imprecise words as shorthand for complex and detailed spiritual experiences...which have already been translated into 'near equivalents', and therefore are even more confused... Its destroyed the mystical traditions of the West - Christianity is lost to the mists of time, politics and mistranslation in particular - kinda sad that literally Millions of people say the lords prayer everyday in English, Spanish etc with no idea some key bits are completely wrong.. However what other choice is there! Barring the fabled mind-to-mind transmission of Zen masters, (in my experience little more than resonant transmission of strong 'feelings') you have to make the best of where you are, and try and tease out the truth, step by painful step... Adore your avatar avi btw

Understand what you are saying, however I'm from a Western culture and therefore have been taught from an early age to 'learn' through such devices. In short, I have no choice in the matter... I'm very comfortable with my level of intention/yi etc etc, and understand how it works, better than most - in itself it is just one more intellectual 'device' that you can learn to master through autosuggestion and then disassociation. Its not an end itself, indeed attachment to the early states of mind that come from progress is one of the greatest traps... you must push on past that 'messianic', 'saintly' feeling of knowledge/power/peace - laugh at it, pity it, then get back on horse... Might be worth restating some thing here, just to be sure - I have come to Nei Gong to try and find a way forward with my Zen, which I already cultivate at a high level, after 20yrs of practice. Problem with Zen is it only works with what you ‘start with’, where as Daosim is happy to harvest energy from the ‘environment’, to boost what you start with. In Zen if your basic quality is weak, then (even though you make ‘rapid’ progress), your experiences will be of a low quality, ‘minor kensho’ etc etc. Zen then basically gives up on you, or requires you to become a monk, ask the gods for help…. Daosim’s sequences and systems means you make veeeeery slow progress, but ultimately gives you a better chance, does not depend so much on what you start with.. Therefore – to be clear - I see my current focus on LDT/Qi as stage 1 of this fix, with stage 2 being MDT/Shen work (chest breathing/Aura work which I know is key but I won’t start until I’m happy with LDT work). I am very clear about what I doing and how I am doing it – using Nei Gong to boost my basic quality, and hence have a very different approach than normal. Hope that clarifies where I’m coming from and why. Please be aware - the exact technique in that reference you published has been extremely helpful in further refining the RAB method, indeed (as with all such things) it has brought to light a very effective method that appears to be known and used by a select few for thousands of years..... Many thanks again.

That’s great – thank you. Been an interesting 24hrs…… After my last ‘Swastika’ post I was contacted separately by a serious and respected practitioner I know from the world of Zen, who expressed grave concern about the detailed RAB method in the post, the belt channel/martial arts reference and where we were going with it. No idea he was on this forum, but he knows me and my level of Zen cultivation. Would emphasise this is not a moderator or connected to Tao Bums. Specifically he stated that this type of ‘RAB’ is 2/3 of a VERY high level martial arts practice - we are just missing the middle bit. This practice has as a multitude of uses - mainly to generate explosive internal power, but also health uses, and high level meditation. It’s specifically focused on generating ‘rapid’ rotation of the LDT to drive/pump Qi through the girdling meridian/belt channel, and then the onward effects of this…. He told me the missing element of the practice and its correct sequence (after an extended Q and A), principally because he was concerned I would hurt myself (knows I don’t give up easy), by going too far the wrong way - causes ‘false’ Qi flow, that if done too much is a key cause of ‘dragon sickness’. Bad for you… But also because the missing element is (in itself) a mid/late stage Zen technique that I’m already aware of but have not mentioned here. I have validated it this am - it’s hard but doable, seems very effective... It combines 3 elements (powerful in themselves) with subtly and force, whilst being very precise. I am going to speak to him again today and, if he agrees, I will publish it here in detail, with whatever terms and conditions he feels appropriate. As it stands he has asked me not to do so and even consider deleting the existing posts. It’s dangerous stuff, which I accept as above, but others may not be aware of what ‘dangerous’ really means. He also has to consider his own tradition and its followers in this matter, plus I have to go and do some research to validate what is already in the public domain. Thanks.

Many thanks - very interesting indeed, thats the RAB technique exactly we are talking about here. Thinking about this - makes me suspect that the coccyx acts like a 'latch' that drags the LDT round a 'notch' on contracting, and that holding tension in lower abs presses the 2 together for better connection! This also adds wait to something I've wonder about for a while - the shape of the ancient 'Swastika', and related symbols, meant to in some way represent the LDT. Specifically these seems have 'teeth' on the outside and I can't help but wonder what is meant to engage these 'teeth', that in some ways then turns the LDT like any other cog. Does the coccyx act like a 'latch' on these 'teeth', pulling around one at a time on every contraction... particularly when the 2 are pressed together by the lower abs. If this is true, then raising and relaxing the coccyx 'multiple' times (pulsing it) during inhalation would be the most effective technique of all, which must be worth a try, so I will. Will also try the pulsing method throughout the whole cycle, whilst keeping lower abs tense through whole cycle, as suspect this will push past the full lock of the LDT problem, I detailed in previous post. . Thanks again.

Thanks for coming back to me. Have just tried the root lock on both inhale and exhale and got a 'full' locking effect for LDT, along with some heat up at Hui yin (coccyx) - ie no sensation of LDT moving or twitching, like the lock on both sides of the breath was holding it fast from moving at all. Perhaps I'm doing it too hard however, as was conscious of really getting my Coccyx to move as much as possible and then hold constantly, as per your other comment. Locking on one or the other causes movement feedback, however I have to say at this point locking on inhale is the stronger of the 2, particularly when you holding tension in your lower abs - as if you pressing your LDT and coccyx closer together. Agree there is a lot to be said for moving it in sync with the stomach pressure - the circular bow way AND locking, then release. this seems to act as a guide for LDT rotating forward. No satisfied that this is as efficient as it might be however so will experiment further. Lastly have read recently that strong Qi flow in the girdling meridian is the key to 'unattended' LDT forward rotation - acts as a positive feedback loop, the more LDT rotates, more Qi flows in meridian, which in turn pushes the LDT to rotate further. Have you heard of this?

Many, thanks for your comments - made me practice the 2 in sequence and think about the actual process and results of both. Going to focus on breathing in this response, will do a 2nd post on the Thrusting meridian point. First, my NAB is basically Damo's 2nd stage 'Sung' breathing, learnt slowly with a lot of focus before I could let it go by itself - this is how I detected my LDT moving/twitching just after the max inhalation hold/pause. Feels like trying to spin a tennis ball forward by brushing straight across the top of ball with flat of your hand, as my stomach collapses back. My NAB Process - Hold upper chest deflated and rock still through out, - Breathing in through nose so I can feel the breath above my top lip, by pushing lungs straight down ONLY - Let belly push forward and out unrestricted, pressure travels down front of abs as they expand while lungs moving down. - Holding briefly on max inhalation, feeling the pressure at the very bottom of the pit of my stomach now (but NO root lock) - Release pressure letting belly collapse back in flat lifting pressure from pit of stomach - When abs are back flat keeping going beyond and lift belly up into chest by pulling lungs up as far up as possible. - Exhalation ends with slight pressure at top of abs from pulling lungs up, lower abs flat. I don’t use a root lock/ab tension on exhalation in NAB at all, its pressure release only. Also don’t use intention to lead my Qi at the moment. My understanding at that time was that you are pulling up/down earth Qi as much as pulling down/up heaven Qi, (strong benefits you legs and lower body connection) and therefore you don’t try and constrict any movement in or out, a basic ‘longevity’ practice designed to build a strong foundation. Opening your Yongquan and pulling up Earth Qi is a major factor. When I practiced to the point that I could release my focus (and speed this up slightly), noticed an interesting thing – the motion over your stomach wall is a circular rotation of your abs when viewed from side. Seems to me its this circular rotation which is meant to catch/encourage your LDT to follow it. Very slow progress however… perhaps because I’ve never used a pressure lock... To be honest I've always associated root lock with libido management. New RAB Process – all as before except – - Raise my coccyx on inhalation, keeping tension in my lower abs that stops them moving forward whilst pushing lungs down. - Upper abs expand out only now, abs take on a mushroom shaped effect when seen from side - Generates much tighter pressure on max hold/pause, seems to also pressurise my lower spine. - Release coccyx on exhalation causing a collapse downwards, then back and then upwards, the old circle movement as before, if smaller. Has to be said that using a root lock on inhalation generates WAY more pressure than before. Can be strongly argued that this is a better technique for generating pressure slightly higher in your belly (in my terms at least), which may in itself encourage LDT rotation forward and down the front more effectively on pressure release. Overall, RAB clearly breaks down ab breathing in 2 distinct phases – pressure build up and then ab rotation on release, seemingly making them both more effective. However is seems to be focused on your waist/upper body meridians, so is a partial technique (Zen criticism). Interestingly – after focusing on this for last hour have noticed the following – Have a strong desire to twist my torso, literally just found myself swinging from side to side there! Hit the books and see that swaying motion is connected to Qi flowing in your girdling meridian strongly (a small water wheel of Qi), which is great! Have a desire to rock forward on inhalation - like a stomach crunch, to drive pressure build up and also flex upper back slightly (where most the pressure seems to be around Shendao) Am experiencing a mild heating of the coccyx, perhaps linked to the intention necessary to practice this unnatural technique. To conclude – clearly my previous NAB practice was VERY natural and low/no risk, hence it was proving very slow. The new RAB practice incorporates several speed ups that I’m already seeing results with, really hitting the first 2 key small water wheels of Qi - I'd say if 5x more effective. Be really kind to get your thoughts on above. Will work on Thrusting meridian post now, bit more back story involved in terms of my practices and experiences, given your answer. Thanks again.

Nice analogy and very true... however the point is the 'goal' you are aiming for, the process of how you get there is a meaningless mechanical/intellectual device... By definition any 'effort' to cultivate is a forced technique is it not, from the wonderfully gentle rapid enlightenment school of Soto Zen on up? Its simply the degree of effort and risk, and I've wasted far to much time on vague and shoddy processes (that I was not ready for) already in my life.. Hope you understand - I've no interest in waiting for my 'kettle to boil' of its own 'accord', particularly as I have some real insight in to what (not so nice but very real) 'things' can hinder this..... The one thing I really love about Daosim is there is no attempt to 'sanctify' the meaningless details of process with false morality, (eg making prayer holy) other than at a local/master level, even in the classic early writings.

Do agree with you in terms of forced Intention/Yi - for me this acts a 'freeze spray' that can be hugely counterproductive. However, I don't agree in terms of using forced techniques as a process in a disassociated state - many traditions that deal with energy work use some form of forcing/shock type encouragement. Therefore, when you separate out the Yi/desire of your petty ego 'to force' and concentrate on a forcing 'technique' itself, then there is little or no issue.

Thanks for your interest - agree that raw pressure is a great basis for this and do use it, ie routinely do my own version of 9 bottled wind with this in mind. However... do you not agree that as we are working with a tangible substance that acts like a think liquid (in my experience) adding a 'pumping' action (eg forced breathing), using 'heating' to increase its energetic activity (eg bellows effect of ab tension), and/or lessening the resistance (eg spine flexing) would be beneficial at all?

Hi, new to the forum and looking for the same specific advice on effective ways to force LDT rotation. Have also come to Nei Gong through Damo's books (practiced without a teacher), after years of Zen that took me so far, with an interest bought on by accidental experiences in my youth. Got stuck and realized I need a much stronger foundation - ultimately I need to improve the openness of my thrusting meridian. Have practiced Sung breathing/spine flexibility for several years and content I have a far less blockages, have a reasonable energy body connection and have sorted out my level of Yi/focus. This has improved my Zen no end, with now regular experiences of the 'the moon in water', ie seeing a pin prick of light that then rapidly expands out in my vision over 5 mins or so, that was only sporadic previously. However it is not a strong/defined white light, more of a hollow wave front/ripple thats sparkles. Have a slight connection with my LDT, ie I can feel it 'tickle' and perhaps 'catch' occasionally when focusing on it, never a nice feeling but seemingly driven by its movement. Not a constant 'fish' or feather rolling however. Specifically, the advice I'm looking for is as follows - 1. How best to control your breathing to spin my LDT vertically forward, ie down at front/up at the back? I've seen that reverse abdominal breathing is seen as the most effective way but opinions vary.. Am now trying this - breathing strongly into my upper abdomen whilst holding lower abs with light tension and by raising my coccyx on inhalation only. This seems to pump up the pit of my belly but feels very unnatural. Does seem to do something however - get a lot of tension/pressure along mid spine/upper back. Am aiming to do one full rotation per in/out breath, for rapid improvement. 2. How best to open my Thrusting Meridian, perhaps using the basic back exercises/focus on Jing, whatever? Have tried Damo's version of focusing on coccyx, letting the heat generate and then waiting for the vibration to start up my spine however its not really working for me. Be really, really grateful for any real world advice, based on forced, physical techniques (however difficult) that others have found to work! Happy to do Tai Chi movements, however would rather have the specific move, rather than a long combination or sequence, as practice alone. Please, no philosophical or 'let nature take its course' answers, no interest in esoteric or coded language. No need to be safe, I'm a grown up and looking for short cuts/speed ups and therefore happy to take my chances. Had many surreal experiences over the years and don't scare easy. Thanks in advance!