Paul

Grasping means believing something is true.

 

oh, there is plenty of that in Kunjed Gyalpo-The supreme source

 

Pure and total consciousness is not subject to quantity and cannot

be depicted in any way. However, for the phenomena

created by consciousness, multiplicity arises. What is

created by consciousness? From the natural condition of

consciousness are created the animate and inanimate

world, Buddhas and sentient beings. In this way there

appears the manifestation of the five elements, of the six

classes of beings, and of the two types of emanations of

the dimension of form [sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya]

that act for their benefit. All of this manifests from the

nature of consciousness as multiplicity. [...]

The root of all phenomena is pure and total

consciousness, the source. All that appears is my nature.

All that manifests is my magical display. All sounds and

words express only my meaning. From the very

beginning, the pure dimensions, the wisdoms and

qualities of the Buddhas, the karmic inclinations and

bodies of beings, all the things that exist in the animate

and inanimate universe, are the nature of pure and total

consciousness.

 

This is still talking about existent things in the manner of a rope mistakenly seen as a snake.

Excellent remarks!

 

I argued with several Buddhists on this site for years and not one was able to offer a satisfactory explanation to the questions you are posing. Buddhists are trapped in absolutist anthropocentric ideology. Buddhists fall back on 'non being' and conveniently ignore the rest of the Hegelian dialectic; 'being, not being and becoming'.

 

It is to recognize that this dialectic is an intellectual trap. That's why Buddha says nirvana is not being, non-being, both or neither.

What the hell is buddhahood ?

 

Buddhahood is seeing the empty-clarity of awareness until one's elements disappear.

 

And what the hell is naturally formed by nature ? (By what "nature" and what is "naturally formed")

 

The clarity sphere of awareness appears in different ways to different beings. Water appears as fire to ghosts, as space to fish, as the color white to Buddhas. This is water's "nature."

 

And what the hell is buddhahood of clear realization.

("Clear realisation" is such a generic term -"Yesterday i had a very clear realisation as to the fact that my dog is not a cat")

 

One clearly realises nothing is real.

 

Tell me how do these expressions relate to your experience right now ?

What is "buddhahood" , "naturally formed by nature " and "buddhahood of clear realization" right now , tell me??

I need you to get real and verify if your experience right now has any resemblance to whatever these things mean.

 

To some beings water appears as a shining light.

 

I dont need people like Kyle with his scholarly wannabe attitude to come here and litter the place up with quotes written in an alien language.All he does is that he always hides behind very well choreographed answers littered with quotes and written in a jargon that smells from a mile of I-have-my-head-so-far-up-my-ass-that-i-can't-be-bothered-with-ignorants-like-you.

Don't you see that he is incapable of giving straight answers , experiential answers , which come from direct experience of the teachings ?

People who have had direct experience of the knowledge of dzogchen, when explaining of how it is to rest in nature they don't use language like "i experience the display as non-arisen".What the hell is non-arisen?

 

It is to be completely relaxed without any hangups. One can be so relaxed one's body disappears. That's buddhahood, omniscience, etc...

"If one knows [shes] the buddhahood that has always been [ye] naturally formed by nature, there will be buddhahood of clear realization. That is the definition of wisdom [ye shes]."

- Rigpa Rangshar tantra [per Malcolm]

careful not to throw your pearls...

I'm always baffled when discussions within one of the most peaceful philosophies turn nasty. How can we change that here on the bums? I don't want this thread to devolve into name calling or finger pointing. Rather what can be done to end this strangeness.

 

I understand all sides are passionate and come here from different traditions. Still what can be done to end sniping, trolling and insults here.

 

1. Burying the hatchet. Don't carry old grievances into new discussions.

2. Be honest and polite before being offensive. ie Please don't ... or could you please discuss that in a new thread.

 

Buddhism is all about skillful means. What's the best way to cut these things off before they escalate?

 

One should have a meat space relationship with commentators. Barring that, act as if one had one. Everyone needs to control themselves. Don't feed the trolls.

S*** J****

I never said you were trying to win anyone over. If anything, you post too many diverse and contradictory quotes to make a good Buddhist salesman. What you are really doing is fostering more diversity and confusion. Perhaps you should find a practice, stick to it and then based on your experiences and understanding, write about that.

 

Why do you mention Gatito, Dwai and 3Bob? I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about the contradictions in Buddhist writings. And, you know what is wrong with forums? There is no accountability. Anyone can pretend to be anybody, say anything and may or may not really know what they are talking about. And, most posters have their own hidden agenda in mind, not the welfare or spiritual development of others.

 

And I never said that emptiness equates to nihilism, nor eternalism. That's your deffective interpretation of what I wrote.

 

And, if I was to discuss experiences with anyone, I would certainly not go to any of those forums that you suggested. Many of those forums breed their own misconceptions and serve only to fuel and reify concepts such as the 'dark night' or 'noting practice'. I have no intention of catching those diseases..

 

But, here is a good case in point. I was reading C N Norbu's "Manifesting the Rainbow Body" from here:

http://dzogchen.ca/category/teachings/page/2/

 

 

 

 

So here is "the world's foremost Dzogchen Master", Dzogchen being the one most powerful practice that overcomes all obstacles, and he is saying that he uses channels, chakras, prana and kundalini and then mantras in order to transform into the Rainbow Body. WHAT! What happened to remaining in presence, in the natural state? What about the effortless non-meditation? And, then, is he saying that Kriya Yogins or Raja Yogins, because they also master the prana, chakras and kundalini attain rainbow body too? Gives your head a scratch, doesn't it? Do you know how many times people posted in this forum about how Dzochen is unique and "the only way"? Always a little off?

 

It is like the other book that I am currently reading called "As It Is" by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

He is supposed to be "an authentic Dzogchen Yogi".

He spends three quarters of the book belabouring the point that one must recognize unconfined empty cognizance. Then, out of nowhere, he says this:

 

 

 

 

WHAT? The more I read, the more all the teachings are sounding the same.

 

I also find it funny that both CN Norbu and Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche give the impression that Dzogchen is a subset of Vajrayana. One would imagine that such preliminary practices such as tantra, kundalini, chakras, channels, melting the bliss drops etc are practices for the lesser practitioners or new initiates, and not the other way around.

 

TI

 

Milarepa said that yidam, prana, nadi and bindu are but the beginning stages of Mahayana. The Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha explains that karmamudra is for lowest capacity and tummo is for medium capacity. Mahamudra is for highest capacity. Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation and does not make distinctions about capacity. Interest is the main capacity. Candali, channels and drops are secondary practices in DC. It doesn't mean for lesser practitioners. It means when you have a particular imbalance or some missing capacity, for example, if the body gets too cold, then you can use tummo. Tummo is also useful for mastering the pure nature of the elements.

Are you saying that zhiné is useless, shamatha without an object is useless, or that shamatha is altogether useless?

Not everyone follows the same path, that doesn't mean the path is useless to another just because it didn't work for you.

For those of us who are not yet able to abide in the Nature of Mind every waking and sleeping moment, shamatha practices can be very useful, in my experience and opinion.

 

I don't believe in every one without a title, either.

Belief is unnecessary - better to know or know that one does not know.

I'm saying trying to grasp the space between thoughts is a useless shamatha practice. There are much better ones.

Paul, when you say "realize" do you mean realizing the full measure of rigpa or do you merely mean the recognition of rigpa?

to recognize; full measure is sort of wordy and has no meaning

 

Mere shamatha?

That is a contradiction in terms, IMO.

 

Do you object to the use of shamatha as a preliminary practice in Dzogchen?

I suspect that you are familiar with the practice of zhiné.

 

I don't think the Lopon meant that this is all that is needed to realize rigpa.

He's got a pretty good idea of what Dzogchen is all about.

I should say common. Shyamatha is common to all various meditation systems. I do object to this method it's useless. I don't believe in every one with a title.

Coming from Diamond Sutra. Buddha does not see any sentient beings. From the Mahamudra songs, seeing nothing is true seeing the Dharmakaya.

Avidya is the contingent cause of the the 12-links. Vidya is the contingent cause of their cessation. Ignorance and Knowledge. That's it. There is no such thing as a pervasive state of consciousness. There is no absence of one either. Pervasiveness is not a factor of enlightenment. Dzogchen masters who talk about the whole universe being rigpa are just saying the whole universe is non-arising. The five wisdoms arise in dependent connection with students. How do we know this? Because otherwise they have no use... Buddha has no use for useless faculties. Buddha's faculties are all geared toward liberating those who suffer. Who sees Buddha? Sentient beings and Arya sangha. Buddha doesn't see anything.

I love her album "Selwa" my favorite music ever...

In fact, there are no sticks either.

With due respect, you are taking the metaphor beyond its intended target. Buddhism does not say there is no conventional reality. From the conventional standpoint, there is suffering, birth, death, etc... From the ultimate standpoint there is not. How there is not is the subject of great debate from the different sanghas. From ultimate truths to atoms to kalapas to bindus... this species of insight is very lineage specific. Engaging in such discussions by quoted from various teachers creates a pandemonium of theories where everyone is talking past one another in a game of one upsmanship, but where all statements are category errors, and hence the discussion becomes meaningless drivel. We can do better.

And obviously there is Hevajra and the gamut of tantric lineages... Key term: root lama...

Of course Nyingma have tummo methods galore. If you're lama, like ChNN has given this transmission to you, then of course there are other cycles of teachings where this is practiced...

Why would there be vitriol among "yogis"?

 

TI, You are working too much from books, and you misinterpret much, IMHO. Please rely on a qualified teacher who knows how to keep samaja. It's very important.

 

For example, did you know Milarepa never used root lock? Would you know why? Would you know which lineages uphold this practice?

 

Anyone attempting tummo without empowerment into Chakrasamvara and Vajrayvarahi, transmission of the six yogas of Naropa, and permission, oral instructions and blessings of one's lama is inviting *disaster*, I tell you. The dharmaphalas are not toying around. They mean business.

 

Love,

 

Nathan

The space between thoughts is a mere shyamatha technique. No one will realize rigpa this way. The masters who teach this are wrong.

Interdependent arising, or dependent co-arising is a distinction without a difference. Perhaps one is the more accurate translation of the precise words, but it does not change the meaning. One can also say simultaneous conditionality. The meaning is all factors are at play simultaneously, like twelve sticks leaning against one another to form a cone. If you remove one stick, the others fall. This is the extent of the meaning. There is no cone, only twelve sticks.

It's a big one. Don't do it.

 

OM AH HUM

Kundalini yoga is a different view, practice and result. By Buddhist standards it's not wrong. It is a foundation. Buddhism works with a stable mind to evaluate the 12-links of dependent origination, and the four noble truths. This is advanced nonduality methodology. In Kundalini yoga one performs a rudimentary form of nonduality research when the kundalini opens the crown. Whichever system is working it's the crown opening when nonduality is being researched.

 

Each methodology has its signs. Kundalini yoga is tantric, so tantric Buddhism is more analogous. In kundalini when the serpent rises through chakras, it feels like a crocodile swimming, or a deer leaping etc. In tantric Buddhism there are other signs, likes amts crawling, seeing smoke, moonlight, etc. These are just signs, not the result.

 

In Kundalini yoga there is a specific consciousness state one lands on, and it is taken to be ultimate reality. In Buddhism, no reality is cognized and joy arises from complete non attachment. Radiance is a metaphor for this joy.

Btw. Red faced demons comes from the Tibetans. They would paint red spots on their cheeks before battle. Also their creation myth says they come from a red monkey and a red demoness.

 

there's only one way to settle this... a cricket match!

We're both team India.

I'm commenting on the Indian mindset. I happen to be Indian. And so is Alwayson. It's also tongue in cheek. But high functioning autistics won't be able to tell that.

 

We have to overcome hundreds of years of colonial oppression, which is what racism did to us. So you guys trying to tamp that down is a manifestation of what you are criticizing. I guess that makes you guys successful colonialists.

 

This was also tongue in cheek. Don't hesitate to get a life.

They're lies by psychics.

 

Which have a particularly realistic feel.

But I happen to agree the Tibetans and Indians are basically all conniving liars. Yet, despite the lies they lead to awakening. Pretty wild and amazing. ChNN's always going on about the essence of the teachings. When this line of thought is taken all the way, that itself is an awakening. Our world is a pack of lies after all.