Paul

I don't read Wittgenstein. I'm using my own words here. And it's not a game, because the distinction between the mind and the mindset is crucial. I think most of the time Buddhists, and especially Dzogchenpas, talk about mind, they'd be better served talking about the mindset. It is the mindset that they're discussing and not the mind.

I've read you write this twice now. I don't care.

The problem is that wisdom can be latent or actively recognized. The mind can never be latent or actively recognized because the mind is never an object of cognition as I define it. The mind is a capacity to know, to experience and to will. As such it is never an object of experience, because nothing in our experience can uniquely represent the capacities I speak of.

 

So it's skillful to separate the mind from wisdom, but for completely different reasons. It's much more important to separate the mind from the mindset.

Oh

I don't put any words in your mouth. You said the people on your list exhibited common and uncommon psychic powers, both. Maybe you want to go back on that. Maybe now you want to say that the people on your list exhibit mostly uncommon psychic powers and none of the "common" ones.

There's no uncommon psychic power. Those are the words you are putting in my mouth. Your problem is you assume you know what I know. Or at least you figure you've climb the mountain far enough to look down on Dzogchen. But perhaps, it ain't so.

Dzogchen has no rules. It can't. You're basically lying here. You're confusing the rules of your little club with Dzogchen.

Samaya gya gya gya. That means "Covenant of Secrecy Secrecy Secrecy".

So if I teach you a method of cooking a potato, can I still say that cooking potatoes cannot be taught? If you answer yes, then how is Dzogchen unique in that it can't be taught when nothing at all can be taught (assuming you agree with my previous example)?

Dzogchen must be discovered within. There can be a path and a map, but not a description of the destination.

If I put conditions on your life, am I liberating you? So if you say, you need to come here and get a transmittion from me before you can liberate yourself, aren't you putting conditions on people?

I might consider a Skype. The point is I need to see sincerity.

As for being a little pest, to really understand what's happening to you here, you need to meet me first. Otherwise you'll be really confused and unhappy for a very long time.

I'm not confused or unhappy, thanks to my gurus who showed me nirvana. And don't hold your breath. I would never ask you for any thing.

The mind or the mindset? People always confuse the two. The mind is a tri-capacity to know, to experience and to will. I split those three for intuitive clarity, but really they are so intertwined as to be inseparable. There is no knowing without willing, no knowing without experience, no experience without knowing, no experience without willing and so on. Any connection, in any order, between any of the aspects of the tri-capacity is a valid one.

 

By contrast the mindset is some specific and particular state that the mind can get into.

Dzogchen separates the mind from wisdom.

The mind or the mindset? People always confuse the two. The mind is a tri-capacity to know, to experience and to will. I split those three for intuitive clarity, but really they are so intertwined as to be inseparable. There is no knowing without willing, no knowing without experience, no experience without knowing, no experience without willing and so on. Any connection, in any order, between any of the aspects of the tri-capacity is a valid one.

 

By contrast the mindset is some specific and particular state that the mind can get into.

I don't play Wittgensteinian category games.

BTW, for those who have an interest in Dzogchen, the teaching and introduction are very simple. The method taught is the actual teacher. Thus, the teacher's act is not a measure. People generally come to Dzogchen after having signs in dreams and other interdependent signs. It is a self-exclusive club. We don't give invitations and we don't proselytize. In fact, it is discouraged for people to join. HH the Dalai Lama says you should stay with your own tradition. Unless someone has a yearning devotion to lineage, there's no reason to teach these methods. No one comes to Dzogchen without having a seriously long past life history with it. It's usually way too much for folks. Why? It's completely beyond the mind

I try to appeal for some kindness and restraint and all you can do is be critical of me.

I've tried to maintain some hope that this could be a place that is supportive and warm, where we can interact and share and help each other rather than criticize and denigrate one another. I'm beginning to realize that it's not possible on an open forum.

It would be if it were a place for Dzogchen practitioners to discuss Dzogchen issues with Dzogchen practitioners. Instead it is a place for all-comers to intervene in a sincere request for explanations to post statements that denigrate Dzogchen. I would throw rocks if I could.

Is that all you could see in my post?

 

 

How would you describe your contributions?

At this point, I'm throwing rocks.

Very sad if this is the behavior of someone who has been authorized to offer Dzogchen transmission.

It reflects quite poorly on your teachers.

I wonder how they would feel reading these posts of yours?

There was a guy who came to our center and wanted to question everyone and offer his opinions about everyone, until it finally degenerated into him telling us Kali wants to cut off our heads. The response was to tell him, sorry, we have no time for you, as we opened the front door for him to go as my teacher laughed his ass off at him. My teacher is a mahasiddha. He's laughed at me too. He's called me a liar. Don't expect ordinary courtesy from someone who rests in the natural state. Expect the truth.

Then what is it exactly that you are doing here?

If there is a Dzogchen practitioner with a teacher I can tell her/him all manner of stuff. If there is someone interested in Dzogchen and interested in general terminology, I can provide some basic terms. Most of the basic terms are shared among Mahayana. So there's not much danger there.

All our Dzogchen teachers say do not debate Dzogchen, especially with people from other traditions. We are to respect other traditions and not criticize them. I have never criticized the Hindu Advaita. I have training in that from a little boy by my grandfather, Puri Baba Ji. I know this tradition very well. I respect it very much. I won't be venturing into that thread to play saboteur or semantic wrestling.

The tantra tradition is not about being warm and fluffy all the time. We can get aggressive when necessary. We protect this. For me, it's better for you to think I'm some bad guy and don't like me or my teachers than to denigrate the teachings or even to act like you already know what this is about.

 

Hi Paul,

 

a criminal defense lawyer to be exact.

That's right. Fighting for the rights of Americans since 2003.

I'm asking you to put yourself in my shoes.

 

Consider what you are saying. You're saying that the reason you think of certain people as your teachers is because you think they are realized beings with psychic powers of all kinds. This sets up an idea of what a teacher is like.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said those are common siddhis. The uncommon, the ultimate siddhi, is contemplation, the realization of Mahamudra/Dzogchen.

Then you say you are a teacher too, but when I ask you about your realization, you say you have none. So you don't quite live up to the teacher idea that you've described earlier.

The first rule of Dzogchen is we don't talk about Dzogchen.

Also you say that you teach that which cannot be taught. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a scam?

Dzogchen cannot be taught, so why do teachers spend hours and hours giving teachings? Because they show you how to be in that nature with methods, namely, direct introduction. Anyone who has sat through a retreat with Choegyal Namkhai Norbu knows that.

It is the definition of liberation, not a scam. When are you going to stop being a little pest?

What facts do you base that assessment on? For someone in the legal profession or so you claim, your ability to state a reasonable argument doesn't show.

 

I have friends that are well educated scientists, lawyers and academics. I am well acquainted with well thought out discussions.

Because creativity has nothing to do with setting the preconditions for factual assertion. Facts come from other facts.

Finally I got something right.

 

So earlier you said you considered certain people your teachers because you considered them realized beings.

 

If I were to use your own standard to evaluate you, would I consider your transmission worth something?

How would I know what you consider?

Let me get this straight. You say dzogchen cannot be taught.

Right.

But your Dzogchen teachers said you know Dzogchen.

Right.

At the same time, when asked directly, you say you don't know Dzogchen (answering "no" to "are you a realized being").

Right.

And you offer your services in transitting Dzogchen teachings?

 

Is this just about right?

Correct.

On the money.

A well founded argument is based on creative ways of stating one's position

You obviously have no idea what constitutes a foundation.

as opposed to repeating memorized phrases. Your arguments are based on the latter.

 

So a transmission from a confused being? Why would anyone want this?

My teachers said I know Mahamudra, Dzogchen. If no one wants it from me, then no one gets it. I'm fine with that. In Buddhism, the teacher doesn't have to be a realized being as long as you get the teaching from someone with a lineage. Then, the blessings flow to you and you can be realized yourself even if your teacher is not.

Are you a realized being?

No.

I don't think you know what the word "admit" means.

LOL. I'm a lawyer! Of course I know what it means.

Can we please drop the evasions and innuendo? Just answer my question honestly and forthrightly:

 

Are you offering yourself as a teacher or are you offering yourself as a go-between person?

Wow you're slow too.

I can give transmission.

Every Buddhist I have had discussions with generally use the same verbiage. Circa 800 A.D.

Wow you must be pretty old. You'll have to show me your supplements.

Don't jump to conclusions.

It's not jumping to a conclusion when you already admitted it.

Are you offering yourself as a teacher or are you offering yourself as a go-between person?

I got my big boy pants on.

Because I don't respect you?

So you come to a Buddhist thread to harass Buddhists. Good one. You're an asshole.

I have been in several retreats with Norbu starting in 1989.

Congratulations!

Who cares what you prefer? You should think about your student's wellbeing for once.

No one I suppose. But my teacher's insist on meeting in person, because that's what it takes to become connected to the blessings.

It is obvious by the canned responses by the Buddhist's here that refuse to lighten up and critically think. Maybe even question your belief systems BS? Goldisheavy is asking very intelligent well thought out questions and you are not able to engage him in an intelligent manner.

No. He's not. He's saying semantical games. They are not substantive or insightful in the least. He's a damn crashing bore of amateur.

Good question. I'm going to go with "can't."

How about won't? You know why? Because I don't give a shit about what you have to say. So why do you keep trying to shove your shit down my throat when I don't respect it?