Uroboros

Then they go on to talk about how the cicada and the dove laugh at the Peng for its efforts to gather so much wind, to travel so far and high.

We see that often play out in human inter-actions.

This may even be of a similar vein to TTC Chapter 41

Hmm....I have been pondering these sections, 1/ 2, looking at them from a different perspective..

Section 2 starts with talking about water, how you need a certain amount of water to carry certain sizes.

If the water is not deep enough, it wont carry a big boat.

When I was thinking about the wind being Qi, I did not mean Qi as in wind. I meant the Qi "field" / "web".

The "energy".

Looking at this section, Im pondering the meaning that they are talking about how you must have a certain amount of Qi built, possibly in the LDT ( wind underneath the wings) to " carry the sky on your back"...experience the Tao? (TrueTao)

Of course, it could also mean "breath" or "air". We do happen to need good breathing to do much of anything. haha.

There are probably layers to these writings..Some only make sense if we look at it from different perspectives.

Some would be philosophical, some would be speaking to cultivators.

Interesting that they say- Therefore (the Peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

So if there is sufficient "wind", nothing is left to obstruct or arrest its course...

I wondering if that is talking about clearing the channels/ vessels. Enough qi in the LDT, they open naturally.

Hehe, of course, I may be seeing more then there is here.

I work with my Qi and cultivation in a way that may or may not be close to Wu Wei.

It stems from willing-ness. Not willful-ness.

So say, I want my Qi to work on my spine. I would have the intention of just that and just keep a space within me for that to happen whenever it wants to, however it wants to.

No forcing yet the force that manifests is powerful. It is a gentle way.

Similiar to BKF Water Method of dissolving. Active Waiting.

I have found many things happen without the need to force them. I have become far more sensitive to my own system by practicing this way of living/ inter-acting.

Peace.

Maybe the wind is Qi. Breath/ Qi.

In the failed attempts thread, Taomeow suggested that- "In the Northern Deep there is a great fish, thousands of miles long. It turns into a giant bird whose back is thousands of miles in size. When it gets aroused and takes to flight, its wings are like clouds covering the sky." Could be Taiji.

I had not thought of that at all. Now looking at it..the wind could be Qi. Qi is created by the movement of Kun to Peng...

Maybe a reference to the bellows in the TTC...

Hmm....I am still pondering this idea.

Peace.

Maybe not asking the right questions may be it. The questions that we may ask, may be the wrong ones to ask.

The right questions do seem to help allot. hehe, the right question can lead to the right words to point to the right place. hah.

Then, if many of the questions we may ask are wrong, should we ask at all?

Maybe none of them are wrong because we are all on the path and eventually we will reach somewhere.

hehe, illusions upon illusions, a kingdom of mirages, at our service....are we now powerful?

Peace.

The thing is that we're making emptiness into a thing though. Remember when Ananda talked about how emptiness is round when it is in a glass. It's very difficult to understand. That's why you gotta investigate it with meditation and doing good deeds.

I agree. I am making emptiness a thing. A thing that is no-thing. We are using words and trying to be as...expansive as possible with those words is tricky.

So as to not completely destroy the concept.

I feel it can help to use words to point in the right direction. Whatever that is.

In the end, we must experience it, though.

Peace.

I do like chocolate......allot.

Malikshreds- I have not finished it, either. We shall see where the Buddha takes us!

I was thinking about emptiness....physicists say that matter is mostly empty space.

Could they have meant that?

Since the point is that they, enlightened beings, experienced the truth. The root.

They would probably know that.

And they would know what the emptiness is.

So maybe its all the same thing, just different perspectives.....

Something to ponder.

Peace.

Malikshreds- I am there, too. The Buddha is talking about seeing and the things that are seen. The emphasis on seeing and what it is.

I thought the Buddha said emptiness in reference to forms seen thru the conscious mind....Maybe I am mistaken. I will find out soon!

Taomeow- I had not even thought of that verse being about Taiji!! I have been pondering what you said and I am starting to see it...

How majestic.

That is an important perspective to keep in mind, I agree. That it is practice put into words..

Some things will be harder to understand, a layer, without having experienced certain things.

Like how you read that verse and thought of Taiji. I did not. You practice Taiji Chuang among other things so you have internalized the Taiji more then I.

So you connected/ resonated to the words differently.....

I will keep that in mind.

Thank you for sharing!

Peace.

We should.

An organization for anyone, of any religious/ spiritual affiliation.

So long as you are an Anarchist at heart.

The world will either become better, fixed.

Or collapse from the chaos.

Sounds fun.

No problem, MH. Gotta help each other out when we can. Or not.

ANARCHISTS RISE!!

Peace.

Malikshreds- In the Shurangama Sutra, as far as I have gotten, he does seem to stay away from absolutes concerning emptiness and the nature of form.

In many ways he does say this is true yet its not as black and white...The true/ absolute is less to do with form and is inclusive.

Something like that. hehe, here I am, a baby, trying to speak of rocket science!!!

haha. Boom.

I think in the Dhammapada there is a line where it says, form is emptiness....Hmm...Not sure where, been awhile...

I have heard it before.

In the Shurangama they say that too..They expand on it, though. Why it is empty, and so on.

MH- Feel free to always make suggestions. I do enjoy options to expand my mind space.

hehe, open the door first?! What insanity is this? I am hulk! Hulk smash door! rawr!

On a different note- I have experienced some strange doors in the mind opening. A real pain to close without any damage/ being the same.

Like humpty dumpty. Once you break apart, can you come back into teh same thing? My experience, no.

I do understand your warnings. Some things should not be opened/ entered all willy nilly like.

MH- Glad that you find my musings/ thought bubbles valuable in some fashion.

I am late!! I just had to clean my kitchen and bathe the kittens before leaving...whilst the rock music plays...

Yea, bad mix if I have a schedule to adhere to.

Oh, we are?! OK, true, we did not finish all the pieces of chapter 1...OH, MH, on the intro to this thread, it says chapter 1 not 2.

OK, glad we are coming back here eventually.

Thats the thing with many things. You go into it, then let go of it and let it simmer in the void then go back. Rinse, repeat.

I do that with my qigong training, helps allot. Sometimes i just cant get a movement, so I just let it go, do other stuff, go back later and I get it much faster/ easier...

Its a curious phenomenon.

Peace.

Woo, im late to the party!

Have not been in a ZZ mood till now.

So, first part of chapter two, Heavenly Music...

The story starts with Tzu Ki meditating, entering a "deep" state and Yen asking him what is this thing he is doing.

Then he tells him, good question, you dont know so how can you hear the earth? how can you hear heaven?

that seems to tie into the previous chapter where he talks about different perceptions and states.

How our states affect what we experience.

Then he goes into how wind, the breath of earth/ heaven, creates the notes of the earth by inter-acting with the myriad things.

Hmm....

So principle/ concept wise.

More talk of perception/ states. A sort of, kinda, finger point towards meditation as the means to hear earth and heaven..

Then how heaven and earth inter-act and mans place in it.

Must ponder more...I feel like im just on the surface. HAH, again, again, I row the boat to no-where.

Peace.

MH- I pinned the tail on the ass?!

The donkey is fine for it was made for tail...pinning....

Yea...

Peace.

MH- if my brain is designed to see things a certain way...what if I change how it sees? haha. I figure I could do that since I am capable of imagining it.

Or it will just fry me and I will be a walking popsicle.

Meh, both work.

MH- if you are an Anarchist...does that not mean that you may be a more...loyal steward since you wont get stuck into ritual/ old ways?

More open to change? Less stagnation!

Or you could end up throwing it all out the window with a big, screw it! screw it right into the wall!

Peace.

I have little experience of the illusive nature of reality. What I mean is that I have not, that I am aware of, experienced the true nature of "things".

I have experienced things that do not fit within a limited, matter dominant, philosophy/ reality.

I can see how parts of my mind have grasped, attatched and classified things which limits my perception as to what is truly there.

It can change what is there, limit the potential of a "thing".

Especially when my mind thinks it knows what is happening when it really does not.

Seeing the moon shine in the lake, I dive in, expecting to grasp the moon...when all I find is water.

Somin like that. haha

On a more serious note- Effilang, I enjoyed your post. Thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts/ experiences in as comprehensive manner as you can.

Confusing is like swimming in a whirlpool...round and round we go, up and down...in and out. Where we end up......pickles. hah!

If we add this to our understanding of Karma...Not surprising how it would take enlightenment/ buddhahood to fully understand it.

The web that is weaved is so complex and intricate.....where does it end, where does it start?

hehhe, add in past/ future/ parallel lives....Woooo! Thats a big drink of water!

Peace.

Rene- OK, just making sure I was thinking of who you were talking about. Glad to know im not as lost as I might have been. Hah.

Im glad you feel the same...Both is so much more...just more. It feels natural. There is a freedom in going into both..I have found.

Equal creation and destruction...I will ponder that.

AH, yes. I will now talk only of Sun Tzu!!

Well, good for BKA! Rolling can be fun. Especially down hills....I did that recently. Still fun.

Cheers!

Rene- when you say Li Erh do you mean Lao Tzu or someone else? I think im a but confused....by thinking. hah!

Hmm..nothing left to be removed....Simplicity. I find perfection to be wholeism. I find nature mind shocking because of the decay and destruction.

I feel that life, in this "level", needs both to be what it is....

haha, 30 years ago and it was still to simple for ya. Oh well.

Lawd, if I already know what i want to know then why dont I sit my self down and have a nice ole talk?!

Oh, thats what meditation is.......'

Much opportunity for play in life,

Yep, when the time is right bump it on up if its dumped.

Peace!