Uroboros

I have found that while at first it feels like a setback, that I end up further ahead than before thanks to the break. It is as if we need the odd break to push us forward or make us stronger.

I have had similar experiences. Sometimes things internally are changing and we need to rest.

There are times when I feel to exhausted to do much QiGong that requires movements. During these times, when I just let my system rest, at the end things have changed in a good direction.

if I let my system rest.

Hehehe. It's okay if we disagree on occasion. You have your own journey to travel. Mine's all done. I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

hehehe. Disagreements are wonderful! Different perspectives to expand and grow! haha.

We are all where we are supposed to be......How could we be anywhere else?! haha

No, no, no! Hehehe. What you are doing is testing your capabilities and capacities and finding out that you can do more than you thought you could. You are still within your nature. Only when you start flying will you get my undivided attention.

Haha. Yes, yes, yes! Its all within the bounds of nature. No matter what exists or is thought of, its within nature.

When talking of reversing nature, we are in a way. Sure, its still within nature. BIG Nature.

Small nature, being our individual "way" of existing, we change that. often.

We dont really go with the flow. We want to feel healthier, so we do things to create that change.

What does health often mean? Reversing signs of decay that are associated with aging.

Or slowing that decay down.

Letting nature take its course, small nature, would just be letting them happen.

Not trying to change things.

Peace

True. We are not a natural prey of the Tiger. (Well, except in parts of India where the people have created an undesirable condition for both man and Tiger.)

 

The tiger would likely leave us alone if it did not see us as a threat. Same with the Buffalo. Don't know about man. Strange creature, that one is.

Animals, wild ones that is, are generally far kinder and wiser then most humans! haha.

They feel far more then we do and man has yet to understand how to interact with nature and animals in a peaceful way.

Domesticated animals...they, often, are out of touch with their core nature and their instincts are different...

A lion kills its prey quickly. A domesticated cat tortures and plays with its prey. Why? Dunno.

Maybe it does not really know what to do afterwards.

hehe, maybe we are all like the cat, trying to be like the lion....

Peace

There is a difference between chronic dis-ease and short periodic dis-ease.

With the short ones, In my experience, its mostly due to exhaustion and over-extending. So a break is a good thing, depending.

I always work within the realm of comfort. I practice when my body feels comfortable and for how long. Otherwise, I over-extend and im expending more.

Sometimes, the practice itself will bring about changes that can create periods of "weakness". Feelings of sick and pain.

It does help to have a good teacher to guide you.

If you dont have one, I would just listen to your self. Feel out what seems to help and what does not.

Find your limits. Where is the line, where you move from relaxation to over-extending? Where does it stop being comfortable and rejuvinating?

That will help, I feel. Atleast, it has with my own practice and life in general.

Peace

If you think about it, we often, in our practices "defy" nature. To be more precise, its closer to Reversing Nature.

Our bodies do what they do. Well, we learn Cultivation Methods to CHANGE that. Nature is already doing its thing within us and we want to change HOW it does that.

Sure, the goals are usually to bring more harmony and such. Still we are changing natures course. We do it all the time, as humans.

Another way is thru "Jing" or sexual energy retention/ sublimation. For men, the natural course is for all that energy to be ejaculated into the woman, or anywhere really, for the purpose of passing genetic code/ life force onto the next generation.

This happens to be done at the expense of the males life force.

Well, we alter that! We Reverse Nature and channel that energy inwards. Instead of expending it towards the next generation, expending our life force in the process, we reverse that process to use the energy to expand our cultivation and growth.

Some thoughts.

Peace

Awesome my friend. I guess the simplest way to describe what you're saying is with the words "intuition" and "balance"..

haha, yep. Intuition- the deepest, truest "pulse" that I can "hear" at the moment.

Balance...Hmm..Yes. Balance as a verb, though. An action. Its something that I dont want to "get". its something that I do. Create. Like dancing.

I enjoy your question! Its important, I feel. Sometimes its easy to fall into a lull and questioning what we are really doing can help.

Ah, 3bob, so you want another discussion, do you> Hehehe.

 

There is more knowledge than your or my brain could ever come close to consuming. At some point we need to say, "Stop! That's enough."

 

Yep. That is from the TTC. Do you really believe the way it is translated? I suggest that would not be good.

 

Expose yourself to a tiger in the wild and you will likely die, especially if you try to pet some females little cubs.

 

Try to go for a ride on a wild buffalo. I promise you, you will not have a happy day.

 

Expose yourself to the enemy while in battle and I promise you that it will be the last thing you ever do.

 

There is room for death in every living thing. No exceptions. Period.

 

The way that part of Chapter 50 should be understood, IMO, is that the wise man never exposes himself to these dangers. He is totally aware of his surroundings so he does not make himself visible to these dangers. Logic dictates that we read the TTC with our logical mind first. Then, if you feel frisky go ahead and venture into the implied mysticism. But while you are doing that don't forget the logic of "reality".

 

Interpretation is everything. We are not spirit beings such that if a sword is thrust into our mid-section it will do no harm. Such and act would likely cause us to die.

 

Yes, I still watch my butterflies but I know that I cannot fly. Illusions and delusions are some tricky things. Sometimes they cause no harm, other times we venture into great danger.

Another point of view is that it is possible to "communicate" with the Tiger and there will be no need for violence.

It is, I believe, possible to integrate our various systems in such a way that the "laws" change.

How to do it? Dunno. Im not there yet. Just a baby, am I.

Does that mean its not possible? Nope, just that it may be quite difficult or so simple its mostly overlooked.

We each experience our own life and have our own desires/ impulses.....Who knows if what one experiences is the same as what another experiences.

Hehehe, the Tao that can be spoken of.....

Peace

Seems like you're the type of person who goes with the flow which is respectable and I feel like that "path" has its own benefits.. It may actually work better for you than others.. It's true everyone's nature has its own full expression and we should all flow with it, although, IMO we should guide it at times too

Yes and No. I "listen" to what is in my experience at the moment. I also "listen" to my heart. What I feel is the truest expression of who I am. I move with my "true" heart expression. I work with the environment around me.

So I do both. I go with the flowing river and I walk on the land.

Sometimes I will do what has been presented to me if it feels "right". Other times I wont. It depends on what my internal sense "feels".

Often times that is just to wait, to enjoy what already is here.

Sometimes its to move, to create.

Peace.

Those are all wonderful goals/ things to experience. I do feel that they can be done.

Since I have little real understanding or experience in regards to them, I leave them alone.

My intent now is just to become healthy. With the intent to "see" what those "things" are about and how to go about them.

So for now, what am I doing? What I can and what seems best for my current state. Building a solid foundation, transforming the basics- breath, body, mind, eating, etc.

I do know what you mean, though. We are capable of so much...how often do we become that? Not often, it seems...

Maybe some cannot achieve it, yet their nature has its own full expression and that is what they should go for, I feel..

Peace

Wu and Yu are never separate. Like standing in the colorado river and standing in it's water. No separation, no where to "get" to between one or the other. Perspective.

Hmm...Ok. Wu and Yu are always together. Like words and meaning. The meaning is not the word and vice versa...

One can be seen/ heard, the other can only be felt. Sort of like that?

If Wu an Yu are always together....how does one Wu-Wei? It a shift in perspective? In the moment, shifting gears, per say?

Such a strange yet powerful concept....Grr. haha.

Uroboros... please be careful of self-interested definitions of Wu-wei and the excitement that some have to proclaim its meaning as harm... bring morality into this is so far off track.

 

As the Philosophy Department at the University of Hong Kong has written:

The "Inner Chapters" of The Zhuangzi mostly avoided the wu-wei slogan. It is far more frequent in theLaozi influenced "outer Chapters."

 

And it is funny to note that there was some chastising to bring LZ into a discussion of ZZ... but that is what has happened in particular forcefulness now... Just beware of what you read; don't believe everything; question everything. Even this.

 

I would say that ZZ is engaging us in a concept of Wu wei, he just doesn't need to use any description or word for it... It is one's own nature or natural following which occurs for Peng, Quail, Lieh, etc... No judgments needed. No harm comes into the equation. It happens as it happens for each in the realm in which they exist.

Thank you for the advice! No worries. I know Wu-Wei and Te have little to do with morality. Morality itself is a concept I care little for.

We each have our own idea as to what is right or wrong. That seems to fit nature far more then absolutes.

What I think Wu- Wei is, is a state or way of being....thats about where I am. haha.

Peace.

Yes, now you got hooked on Wu Wei.......!!!

 

In order to be Wu Wei, the initial intend was to be Yu Wei to get to Wu Wei. Wu Wei is a patented term of Lao Tze, so to speak. However, to be more exactly, Wu Wei is not to interfere with Nature to cause any harm. Not causing harm to Nature is Lao Tze's primary concern. Wu Wei is to keep Nature in harmony. Lao Tze thinks interrupting Nature will cause it to go off balance. Thu this is the goal of Wu Wei we are striving for instead of Yu Wei.

 

How does Wu Wei applied in one's life....??? There are many examples almost anyone can think of. For instance, if I am forcing you to believe what I believe, then I am interfering your personal thinking. Thus I was not being Wu Wei because I have interrupted the course of your life.

 

Yes, there are few threads about Wu Wei but it is many many pages back in the Taoist Discussion section. Let me see if I can find them....!!!

Interesting....So you use the Yu to enter into the Wu...I can see how that would work.

Sort of like how we start meditating (intention) to enter into emptiness (wu)...then once we are there at a certain point, it becomes natural and no intention is needed to "get" us there?

Nature? As in nature all around us and our original nature?

Not forcing someone to be other then they are....hmm...I will ponder this and read those threads.

Thank you for explaining me some things, CD..

Thank you, CD! I will read those soon! Hehe, seems they alluded me! Not for long......

Thank you, MH! You both been mighty helpful like.

Yes, there have been a couple (few?). I will look later to see if I can find them.

I thought so, too. Searching for Wu-Wei brings up nothing and I dont see any listed when I look thru Taoist Section..

still, some really good threads on here. Reading some on Te and Ch 2 of TTC...Really great perspectives here.

Heh, thats what we are doing with ZZ...seeing it from mutliple angles so we can see a more comprehensive, wide view.

LIKE PENG!

hahaha

Life lived, just existing,

is that enough for our heart, our spirit?

Do the songs that slumber deep in the minuscule, unending crevices of our spirit,

stagnate and rot?

There is nothing more vile then an existence without spark,

Without songs being sung,

For life is music, a symphony of notes and experiences,

tastes and textures,

Within is a well, a spring for which no end is sighted,

Open, it whispers, let me out, drink from me, it cries!

And so we shrivel, we harden, we cry silently with dry tears,

echoing shrieks in the night of our heart of hearts.

We die each day, more then the last.

For what is death, if not decay?

What is death, if not stagnation?

What is death, if not the absence of vitality?

This well, this spring of vigor, of vitality is life itself!!

Calling forth to us in the deepest recesses of our minds!

Go forth, let me bubble and churn, spray and yearn!

It whispers, softly in your ear.

To follow our heart, our spirit and let this virile and vital passion well up,

Bubble into our heart and spirit, into our lives,

Is this not the act of living?

To not just exist, to live!

Life becomes a dance, a play, a symphony,

Love fills the air, fragrances explode with texture,

Sights and sounds, tasted before, now tasted with a new, refreshed sense!

Let go of stagnation. Begone, you cry!

Let go of repression. Begone, you cry!

Let go of apathy. Begone, you cry!

Taste the well of life within your heart,

you will want for nothing else,

its sweet waters soothing your beaten, tender heart,

bringing vitality and passion where there was only stagnation.

Bringing with it the gift of life. A life lived with passion.

With love.

With hope.

With bliss.

Yes, Wu(無) and Yu(有) are complementary to each other. So is Wu Wei(無為) and Yu Wei(有為).

 

Wu Wei(無為): have no intention(to commit an act); let Nature take its course and be natural.

Yu Wei(有為): Have an intention(to commit an act); interfere with the course of Nature which considered to be unnatural.

Interesting....Then what most people strive for is Yu-Wei....Action springing forth from conscious intention.

Wu-Wei...can you truly be in Wu-Wei/ embody it, if you do not yet have a root in your original nature?

Hm.....Why do they speak about Wu-Wei as the goal and not Yu-Wei?

Yeah, for right now I think your thought of finding that (those) wu wei threads and reading through them is a good idea.

 

Rene and Chidragon can speak nicely on wu and yu when they feel the time is right (if they don't get into an arguement, Hehehe).

Are there any Wu-Wei threads on here? Im pretty sure there used to be yet I cant find em now. HAH!

Strange.

Peace

I'm afraid that mostly comes with experience. Just like not being attached to success and failure.

Hahaha. The answer that gives no definite answer......How very..Taoist?

I know what you mean, though. Thru experience we learn how to refine our awareness of things....

I have a saying, probably stole it from someone else but that doesn't matter, that goes: Even the smallest of advances lead to the greatest of victories.

 

For small things, small victories are great.

 

For large things, large victories are required.

 

 

I'm not ready to talk about compassion yet as Chuang Tzu hasn't alluded to it yet but it is forthcoming, I assure you. Hehehe.

Mmm....Longest journey, single step.

Hmm...that is another aspect to it. I know I can get so focused on the big, I do not see the small victories.

See both. Experience both, eh. Tis a wonderful way.

How do we know which is a small thing and which is large? Especially if we think the small thing is large or the large small?

Ok, good. Compassion is a big one. I look forward to delving into that!

Peace

Well, let's see if I can add to the confusion.

 

We are being primed here for the concept of 'wu wei'. A covert action here by Chuang Tzu that we will see time and time again. He is getting our brain ready for when he does start talking about it.

 

Yes, waiting. When there is nothing to do we simply wait until there is something to do. And really, if you had nothing to do and could live spontaneously wouldn't you be pretty happy? I promise you, inner happiness arrives without effort after we have made room for it to enter.

 

Waiting for something that will move him. The 'riding the wind' is a perfect example. (The wind here should really be interpreted as Tao.)

 

Al though he can ride the wind there first must be wind on which to ride. So he waits. He is in a state of 'wu wei'. There is nothing to do so nothing is done. Waiting for life to call him into action.

 

Great.

 

 

I hope this inspires some thought.

Oh, wow. Thank you, MH! That helps allot... I can see now how that section is priming for Wu-Wei....

I had not thought of that before. Hehe, you didnt add to my confusion, you helped clarify it!

Which will eventually create new confusion. hah.

Interesting...

Is the Wu in Wu-Wei, the same Wu as in Wu and Yu?

If so, is there a Yu- Wei?

Hmm....Im going to have to contemplate the Wu-Wei thread in that section.hehe.

Peace

Uroboros....

I am glad that you are reading ZZ as parables, not like others reading it as the TTC. It is because you are not reading it object by object nor line by line. That is the right approach to read ZZ......

 

 

hehe, it seems to be written as parables/ stories...even though the lines themselves sometimes seem to contain deeper wisdom, the stories themselves are very different in how they are put together then the TTC....

Who knows! The ZZ might have meant some parts to be like TTC...others not so much.

Maybe its layered. A story within a story. hahah.

Peace

In America if you say you're god you're considered crazy. In India if you say it, you're congratulated on getting it. The story goes one afternoon a twenty year old 'got it'. His family and friend congratulated him on his epiphany. He stood in the middle road smiling, basking in the sun, and saw an elephant coming down the road towards him. 'I am god' he thought 'an elephant cannot hurt me'. As it came closer he stood his ground.

 

Bam, the elephants kicks him painfully to the side and almost kills him. A friend rushes to his side. The twenty year old says to him 'What the heck, I'm god'.

 

The friend points to the elephant and says 'Yeah, but that's a bigger god'.

 

The rules might (maybe..maybe not) change when we're out of body/dead. But as long as we're corporeal, the big gods tend to be elephants, gravity, time, mortality, guy w/ a gun and your mother.

 

A drop of water may be the stuff of the ocean, but its not the whole ocean, its just a drop. It can know the ocean, feel oneness with it and that is .. quite a bit.

Each expression of the whole has the potential of the whole within.

Maybe such things are absolute rules. Maybe they are not.

If we have not experienced what we are, in our innermost, then we do not truly know. or do we?

Why do limitations, in whatever form exist? To create experience? To create individuality?

Things to ponder.

Hehe. fun times, fun times.

On the story...I dunno man...Maybe the kid should have pumped some elephant iron...get those trunk muscles up.

Of course, there are other options as to what could have happened.

The elephant stops. The elephant does not stop and stomps the kid whos body then dies.

The elephant turns to the left or right.

The story is nice for expressing the perceived limitations and rules upon living beings....

Peace.

Thinking on it and seeing what the translator wrote, I can see how they are talking about perspectives and levels.

How to not judge someone just because you are different from them. We each have our own nature. Thats what makes life, life.

They may even be saying, hey dummy! You think you are great? Well, what about this?

Something along those lines. theres a trend in humanity to take a small achievement and make it grand, not realizing there is something larger/ grander still ahead.

Then, they never get to the grand place because they are stuck thinking they are at the grandest.

Some thoughts.

Peace

Edit- I want to add, that compassion also helps. Instead of judging the Peng/ quail for being who they are, could show compassion and accept them for what they are, as they are.

There was Master Lieh (Lieh Tzu), who rode on the wind and pursued his way with an admirable indifference (to all external things), returning, however, after fifteen days, (to his place). In regard to the things that (are supposed to) contribute to happiness, he was free from all endeavours to obtain them; but though he had not to walk, there was still something for which he had to wait. But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable, – what has he to wait for'? Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

This part pokes my curiosity. Well, the whole part does but this in particular. The rest of this section flows until here.

Now they are talking about indifference, riding wind, happiness without effort... and waiting...What is this talk of waiting?

Waiting for/ on what? Life? hmm....

The rest of it, I feel has already been explained.

I dunno what this part is about, yet....

Peace.

Yes, I will try. I have spoken to this concept before in different threads because I think it is an important concept. I just wish I was better at transferring my thoughts into words on a computer screen. Anyhow,

 

 

Each of the Ten Thousand Things are special and unique. We cannot compare (Chuang Tzu story) a horse with a cat. Sure, the horse ran run for many miles carrying a man on its back. But it cannot catch mice. So we judge a horse according to horses, in general, and we judge a cat according to cats, in general.

 

There are men and there are women. Beside the difference in their sex, we cannot judge Hitler based on someone like Mother Teresa. We judge them both against what we consider standard for each. Hitler caused many people much pain and suffering, Mother Teresa eased the pain and suffering of many people.

 

This is why I will always argue against someone saying that we are all One. No, we are not, we are individual pieces of the whole. We are of the same source, but we are not the same. We all, all of the Ten Thousand Things, are unique and special. Even Hitler was special in his own way - with supreme power he single-handedly got hin country into a war that he could not win.

 

Let's say I have two cars, one has a blown engine and the other is in perfect condition. Which would I judge to be of the most valuable?

 

Just like the Peng and the Quail. The Peng is so large she needs to climb that high in order to fly effeciently. The Quail has no need to fly that high because it can find everything it needs amongst the trees and bushes.

There is, I feel, the paradox. We are all unique expressions of the whole, yet we are still of the whole.

So we are not separate, yet we are. We are individuals, yet we are not.

Fun.

Peace.