Straw Dogs

[caat]

From Tao Te Ching Ch. 5:

 

Heaven and earth have no mercy.

They treat everything as straw dogs.

 

What does this paragraph mean exactly? Does it mean every thing has no inherent existence? Or Lao Tzu means something else.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Straw dogs were used as ceremonial objects in ancient China. Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching begins with the lines "Heaven and Earth are heartless / treating creatures like straw dogs". Su Ch'e comments "Heaven and Earth were not partial. They do not kill living things out of cruelty or give them birth out of kindness. We do the same when we make straw dogs to use in sacrifices. We dress them up and put them on the altar, but not because we love them. And when the ceremony is over, we throw them into the street, but not because we hate them."

 

D.C. Lau's frequently cited and often disputed 1963 translation, Lau explains that the term refers to the ancient practice of constructing animal figures out of straw for use as religious offerings. Such figures would be treated with utmost reverence prior to the sacrificial fires--but afterward, their ashes were swept up and discarded with the common refuse.

Edited April 24, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[contrivedname!]

my understanding is that this phrase is attempting to exemplify the operation of nature (kind of like what pie homie was sayin'). to understand the point being made you need the rest of the quote which is something like "the sage isnt sentimental, he treats the people as straw dogs", so it is exemplifying the sage as some one who doesnt play the game of one-upmanship, (s)he flows with nature and the natural operation (tao).

 

in applying this as a ruler it would mean that you act impartially toward all of your citizens from the "lowest" to the "highest", e.g. if some commoner murders someone and there is a punishment for that, their punishment would be the same as your punishment (as ruler) for committing the same act. this is my take, anyway. so essentially, a ruler doesnt attach to the outward appearance but acts according to the inner nature

 

oh, and james legge has a similar description in his commentary (as that of Lau)

 

this could also be applied to birth and death (as pointed out by mpg); heaven-and-earth dont think "wow, i just love my new baby i created", and then ball its eyes out and say "oh, woe is me, my precious child has died" because birth and death are natural functions and no cause for increased egotism (i.e. attachment to birth and death as "good" or "bad"). again this is my understanding

 

Chris

[lienshan]

tian di bu ren yi wan wu wei chu gou

sheng ren bu ren yi bai xing wei chu gou

 

heaven and earth aren't benevolent by treating everything like dogs of straw

sages aren't benevolent by treating the hundred surnames like dogs of straw

 

Dogs of straw were first honoured and trampled upon.

'The hundred surnames' was an ancient nickname meaning 'the Zhou nobility'.

 

'The hundred surnames' changed meaning to 'common people' after 375 BCE, when common people too got the priviledge of having a surname. The Zhou nobility thus lost one of their priviledges: the right to return their surname to the ruler in order to have a punishment reduced, when they had commited a crime.

 

The two lines are therefore saying, that "equal and impartial justice under the law" isn't benevolent in regard to the hundred surnames (the Zhou nobility), and that benevolence thus results in "unfair and partial justice under the law" in regard to the hundred surnames (common people).

[contrivedname!]

ahh monsieur lienshan, i thought you had abandoned posting at this forum, glad to see that wasnt the case

[Wayfarer64]

tian di bu ren yi wan wu wei chu gou

sheng ren bu ren yi bai xing wei chu gou

 

heaven and earth aren't benevolent by treating everything like dogs of straw

sages aren't benevolent by treating the hundred surnames like dogs of straw

 

Dogs of straw were first honoured and trampled upon.

'The hundred surnames' was an ancient nickname meaning 'the Zhou nobility'.

 

'The hundred surnames' changed meaning to 'common people' after 375 BCE, when common people too got the priviledge of having a surname. The Zhou nobility thus lost one of their priviledges: the right to return their surname to the ruler in order to have a punishment reduced, when they had commited a crime.

 

The two lines are therefore saying, that "equal and impartial justice under the law" isn't benevolent in regard to the hundred surnames (the Zhou nobility), and that benevolence thus results in "unfair and partial justice under the law" in regard to the hundred surnames (common people).

 

Thank you for the sense of the thing- it is very refreshing to read such a coherent - no BS entry ...Regarding how the many levels of justice for the various levels of society become clear if unfair... and yet a judge could find some wiggle-room - how practical...until confronted with the impartiality of nature and true justice is seen as being truely- if cruely, impartial...

 

That is the difference between natural justice and man made justice, we may offer each other a variety of options...

Edited April 27, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[lienshan]

From Tao Te Ching Ch. 5:

 

Heaven and earth have no mercy.

They treat everything as straw dogs.

 

What does this paragraph mean exactly? Does it mean every thing has no inherent existence? Or Lao Tzu means something else.

The translation "have no mercy" is somewhat confusing; "aren't benevolent" is a more precise translation.

Laozi is referring to the confucian term "ren" (benevolence), which is synonymous with "The Golden Rule":

 

"treat your inferiors just as you would want your superiors to treat you" (the analects chapter 15:24)