Kunlun follow up poll

[Mantra68]

My mother is not dead. I know it is allot to ask but if you read through the posts it is not to say anyone is responsible.

 

When I received Max's letter he mentioned one of my students threatening suicide. I asked repeatedly who it was so that I could contact them - get them help. I didn't receive a response so my wife emailed the student who initally contact us stating my concern and to please let us know who it was. The student said there was a situation going on at the time about a different suicide apparently someone associated to one of Max's students and the family was looking to hold someone responsible and at the time they were looking at Max and the student. He said Max was very upset about it and his not responding was to do with this other situation. I didn't state the practices caused the suicide only that it is associated.

 

So let me be clear - this was to state that the dramas people go through can be very serious and should not be brushed away easily. And this dynamic is not limited to just one school of thought - and for that matter any particular type of practice. People with stability problems are sometimes attracted to meditative practices and this can really amplify their issues.

-O-,

I really like your insights about the practices in general, but you have made very public, an association that, whether you intended it or not, has spawned a horribly slanderous rumor. One that many people will walk away from here assuming is true. I can only hope that they come back and read the above post to clarify their impression.

 

Max heard about this rumor from another student and called me today very, very upset.

 

Now I'm pissed!

 

If any of you had seen the things I have, you would bow with reverence for the bodhisattva that he is.

 

What people in their selfish stewing fail to understand, is that he gave as much as he could and when people wanted more, more, more, he found a little more to give. There were many times when it almost killed him. I do not exaggerate here.

 

Behind the scenes was often a scary place to be.

 

I had to literally carry him from the car to his hotel room after one seminar in Phoenix. His head was splitting and he was blind from the amount of nasty energy he absorbed from the class (so that they could feel a glimpse of bliss). We had to begin preparing for the worst as he sat in bed mumbling, blind and in excruciating pain until the Tibetan doctor showed up to help an hour later.

 

I have seen him on more than one occasion vomit black blood to purge the chemo residue he had taken from cancer victims. I have seen him seriously ill from working with an AIDS patient and seen him shudder with cold for hours from other shamanic healing acts performed on students who had no idea that he was helping them. They just knew that their "burden" was somehow miraculously lifted.

 

And Max came back to do it again and again in other cities for other groups of complete strangers.

 

At one point he had to give me specific instructions on what to do with his body should he expire while teaching. I lived with that responsibility for two years.

 

This is why we took off right away after seminars: to process the nasty and recover.

 

I have seen him quit many times and I have talked him back into teaching many times, because of the incredible service he does for the world, a service that very few would or could do.

 

He has been through enough. I won't try talking him into anything more, except taking care of himself.

 

So, some people may have fallen by the wayside for more serious cases. That isn't what we wanted, but that can happen when you deal with as many people as we did.

 

He gave more than any of you ever will. He was even prepared to give his life, so please quit complaining about what you didn't get. There was a lot going on.

 

To hell with your rumors and to hell with your perceived slights. There are people with way bigger problems than any of you, believe it or not.

[YMWong]

If any of you had seen the things I have, you would bow with reverence for the bodhisattva that he is.

 

LOL

 

 

YM

[rain]

"like tears in rain"

 

"time to die" !! YEEES

Edited August 25, 2009 by rain

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[farmerjoe]

So, some people may have fallen by the wayside for more serious cases. That isn't what we wanted, but that can happen when you deal with as many people as we did.

 

... so please quit complaining about what you didn't get. There was a lot going on.

 

There are people with way bigger problems than any of you, believe it or not.

 

Some people that have fallen by the wayside may become serious cases. The suicide may or may not be a rumor but there are people that have been hurt just the same, not only from the way Kunlun was taught,but long before it. These things seem to follow or be a repeating pattern of broken relationships and poor judgment with this teacher. All of this comments on the teaching style and lack of commitment to the students. This theme will continue to be repeated with this teacher, and may become a pattern for the students, from what I have read that seems to already be the case.I appreciated all the material in this thread and wish nothing had been deleted or censored. Charity begins at home, when it doesn't people complain. None of you wanted any of this to happen, but from what I read it seems to me that the understanding was always there that it would.Joe.

[Mantra68]

The only thing injured is ego - this too shall pass.

 

No, -O-. In your process of purging the old emotional memory pattern, you have wrongly and publicly accused someone of causing someone else's death.

 

In the US, that's slander and it's illegal.

 

Now it's a casual rumor that sweethearts like farmerboy and TexasNative are only more than happy to repeat out of spite.

 

Thanks for that.

 

This is Max we are talking about. Remember the real person? You know his heart and you have hurt him. Are you okay with that?

 

So you had a misunderstanding at the end of your relationship. Was it so bad that it would come to this?

 

No school is perfect because people aren't perfect. You do the best you can and help as much as you can. The two or three people here who have felt neglected are in the .01 % minority of thousands. We are not happy they didn't get what they felt they needed, but sometimes it was like an emergency room and others were in real life or death situations.

 

Sometimes people go to the ER not for help, but for attention.

 

Armchair critics. Scrutinize yourselves after you have done SOMETHING.

 

I think everyone here should put themselves out there with the goal of helping others. Then they can experience the full spectrum of personalities that respond to their efforts.

 

Regardless of what you do and regardless of your sincerity, some people will love you and others may hate you. There is no way around that.

 

<Edited by Moderator>

Edited January 13, 2010 by Mal

[Biff]

-O-,

I really like your insights about the practices in general, but you have made very public, an association that, whether you intended it or not, has spawned a horribly slanderous rumor. One that many people will walk away from here assuming is true. I can only hope that they come back and read the above post to clarify their impression.

 

-O- is just as entitled to share his experiences as you are. He has been in this game longer then you, please stop trying to be the golden boy. You (well, Max) have done a lot to help people but you are making things worse yourself by attacking. Use the principle of Tai Chi and yield because you are only displaying a lack of emotional control. Like it or not, you have a responsibility to conduct yourself correctly in public. You must have the insight to see how your words will be perceived by people of lower vibration and choose what you say carefully. Saying you don't care... you may think you guys have finished but you are an ambassador of Kunlun and always will be. When Kunlun speaks, all ears are listening.

 

If any of you had seen the things I have, you would bow with reverence for the bodhisattva that he is.

 

Again, most people have not. So their judgements are based on your words as well as others. Speaking of what you have seen means nothing to the outsider. You know this and it is why you have not shared half of what you have seen.

 

I have seen him on more than one occasion vomit black blood to purge the chemo residue he had taken from cancer victims. I have seen him seriously ill from working with an AIDS patient and seen him shudder with cold for hours from other shamanic healing acts performed on students who had no idea that he was helping them. They just knew that their "burden" was somehow miraculously lifted.

 

This did not have to be shared. Again consider the judgement of the outsider if you are really trying to protect Max. Master Chun Yi Lin has healed cancer and many others and he does not vomit black blood. A shamanic healer gets stronger with each healing. In Kunlun it has already been said to give makes you stronger yourself. Do you see what is meant by perception?

 

There are people with way bigger problems than any of you, believe it or not.

 

This was the worst comment you made. And most likely the worst you have ever made. How dare you put the well being of you and your friends over others. No matter how insignificant you think other people are outside of your group, you have no right to be so disrespectful. You have a duty, and even if you think that it is only to protect Max and his image then you must at least pretend to care.

 

In this realm of duality it's strange how one brother can ruin the reputation and standing of an upright family. In this place, words are actions. Max has done much and is a true Bodhisattva. But consider that 90% of this Kunlun crowd have been primarily fed by you!! You are the voice of Max here and have created the image that currently exists. Even those whom have been to several seminars have perhaps only listen to Max for a few hours... but you are the true face behind the image you have created.

 

You have expected students to talk among themselves and help each other. You cannot expect any more then has happened. Take responsibility if you will criticize their words.

 

Growth and development take time. To have a child and leave it on the sidewalk is wrong. Once you have issued life/opened the eyes of a student... you must take the responsibility to raise them in the right direction.

 

No -O-. In your process of purging the old emotional memory pattern, you have wrongly and publicly accused someone of causing someone else's death.

 

In the US, that's slander and it's illegal.

 

This is quite disrespectful and a direct threat. You already stated earlier that you have not even read the whole post. Your words and actions are not those of someone who has helped a single soul. Do not take credit on Max's behalf. Please do not also pass judgement on people so easily as you know not how they may have helped others. Unlike the pharisee some do good deeds in private.

 

You have made enough money, why threaten to make more? I think if you want to talk about legality you will be in a world of shit :-) be very careful. Max is a nice guy, stop ruining him.

 

<quote edited - moderator>

Edited January 13, 2010 by Mal

[Guest winpro07]

-0- has an agenda that was presented as sharing experiences. The Agenda is to slander and nothing more

 

Quote -o-

"""I didn't state the practices caused the suicide only that it is associated.

 

So let me be clear - this was to state that the dramas people go through can be very serious and should not be brushed away easily. And this dynamic is not limited to just one school of thought - and for that matter any particular type of practice. People with stability problems are sometimes attracted to meditative practices and this can really amplify their issues"""

 

these two were students of who?

 

The second youth mentioned who committed suicide was practicing?

 

Who did he learn from?

 

How are you connecting these events as a result of the practices?

Please explain the association you make show the exact connection

Edited August 25, 2009 by winpro07

[Guest winpro07]

-o-, You are very intelligent in your writing and no doubt very aware

 

you are full aware of the effect your writing here on TTB will have on it's general audience and the way in which your post have been perceived.

 

You knew this before you began posting.

 

Your intent is in the outcome of your action.

 

You have very successfully slandered. You have caused harm.

Edited August 25, 2009 by winpro07

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[Biff]

-o-, You are very intelligent in your writing and no doubt very aware

 

you are full aware of the effect your writing here on TTB will have on it's general audience and the way in which your post have been perceived.

 

You knew this before you began posting.

 

Your intent is in the outcome of your action.

 

You have very successfully slandered. You have caused harm.

 

It's agreed that -O- is not the average poster. Everyone has agenda.... but in the continual debate/attack and defense what are we doing to this practice? What will be achieved by taking another down or even proving them wrong? beside feeding the demands of ego. This is spoken towards everyone reading. To the enlightened (no not Fimbo) everything is auspicious and none of this matters. If there is enough light, there is no shadow cast. lol.

 

Winpro07, you have had openings with this practice. What would be great is an unedited description of how this practice has helped you. If you and Chris and KL facilitators were to perhaps put practice journals or some real experiences down rather then random posts containing riddles an parables then things can move forward.

 

So far we have heard of people with issues. This thread was started by Kyle with bad intentions. That has attracted nothing but negativity to it. You, Chris, Eileen etc can change things by posting your good experiences and life changes right here on this site. A kind answer turns away wrath, and humility will neutralize pride. You have the power to create from intention, do not get drawn into negativity and have your power used against you.

 

This thread should be locked.

[Guest winpro07]

TTB is not the place to share personal experiences, or anywhere on line. I have shared and gained very negative

responses.

 

 

Quote -o-

"""I didn't state the practices caused the suicide only that it is associated

 

So let me be clear - this was to state that the dramas people go through can be very serious and should not be brushed away easily. And this dynamic is not limited to just one school of thought - and for that matter any particular type of practice. People with stability problems are sometimes attracted to meditative practices and this can really amplify their issues"""

 

these two were students of who?

 

The second youth mentioned who committed suicide was practicing?

 

Who did he learn from?

 

How are you connecting these events as a result of the practices?

 

Please explain this association that you make show the exact connection

Edited August 25, 2009 by winpro07

[Guest winpro07]

-O-, where did your sisters intuition about being molested by your father begin?

[gendao]

-O-,

I really like your insights about the practices in general, but you have made very public, an association that, whether you intended it or not, has spawned a horribly slanderous rumor. One that many people will walk away from here assuming is true. I can only hope that they come back and read the above post to clarify their impression.

 

Max heard about this rumor from another student and called me today very, very upset.

 

Now I'm pissed!

 

If any of you had seen the things I have, you would bow with reverence for the bodhisattva that he is.

 

What people in their selfish stewing fail to understand, is that he gave as much as he could and when people wanted more, more, more, he found a little more to give. There were many times when it almost killed him. I do not exaggerate here.

 

Behind the scenes was often a scary place to be.

 

I had to literally carry him from the car to his hotel room after one seminar in Phoenix. His head was splitting and he was blind from the amount of nasty energy he absorbed from the class (so that they could feel a glimpse of bliss). We had to begin preparing for the worst as he sat in bed mumbling, blind and in excruciating pain until the Tibetan doctor showed up to help an hour later.

 

I have seen him on more than one occasion vomit black blood to purge the chemo residue he had taken from cancer victims. I have seen him seriously ill from working with an AIDS patient and seen him shudder with cold for hours from other shamanic healing acts performed on students who had no idea that he was helping them. They just knew that their "burden" was somehow miraculously lifted.

 

And Max came back to do it again and again in other cities for other groups of complete strangers.

 

At one point he had to give me specific instructions on what to do with his body should he expire while teaching. I lived with that responsibility for two years.

 

This is why we took off right away after seminars: to process the nasty and recover.

 

I have seen him quit many times and I have talked him back into teaching many times, because of the incredible service he does for the world, a service that very few would or could do.

 

He has been through enough. I won't try talking him into anything more, except taking care of himself.

 

So, some people may have fallen by the wayside for more serious cases. That isn't what we wanted, but that can happen when you deal with as many people as we did.

 

He gave more than any of you ever will. He was even prepared to give his life, so please quit complaining about what you didn't get. There was a lot going on.

 

To hell with your rumors and to hell with your perceived slights. There are people with way bigger problems than any of you, believe it or not.

*Deep bow* to Max for such selfless service and often "casting pearls to swine."

*Bow* to Chris for facilitating his teachings to the world.

Thank you -O- for your sobering and open input.

Prayers and blessings to all those who need it.

 

Rain - I'm just curious, how did you determine that your energy level has changed from 100% to 20% now?

 

-O- - Can you tell us more about this "associated" suicide?

[Mantra68]

This was the worst comment you made. And most likely the worst you have ever made. How dare you put the well being of you and your friends over others. No matter how insignificant you think other people are outside of your group, you have no right to be so disrespectful. You have a duty, and even if you think that it is only to protect Max and his image then you must at least pretend to care.

Accusing someone of causing another's death is HORRIBLE SLANDER and that is illegal. And who said anything about money or suing? This is strictly about principle, man, and I think we can handle it in-house.

 

If you care so much about the man, why didn't we hear you chime in to his defense against this terrible slander. You're content to just sit back and allow that kind of thing?

 

I have posted the positive benefits and experiences, but they just seem to get glazed over in favor of the negative banter and baseless accusation. So, I present a fuller picture of what was happening behind the scenes to give perspective to those whose perspective is limited to what they read from haters on Tao Bums.

 

And I don't care squat for any credit in any of Max's accomplishments. His merit is his, not mine.

 

The point you missed (that I thought I made pretty clear) is that as great as the results you are getting can be, you can't help everybody. No matter how hard you try.

 

Someone will always feel slighted.

 

Yes, of course, everybody matters equally, and it wasn't an issue of friends or strangers, just time and need.

 

Peace.

 

P.S. Thank you everyone for the positive PM's.

[gendao]

Accusing someone of causing another's death is HORRIBLE SLANDER and that is illegal. And who said anything about money or suing? This is strictly about principle, man, and I think we can handle it in-house.

-O- specifically didn't state that Kunlun caused the suicide though, but was just "associated."

 

So, I interpreted that as being a far cry from blaming Max for it. Lots of things can be "associated" with a suicide. Job stress or getting rejected for a date can be associated with suicide. Or emotional detoxing. Doesn't mean any of those were really "at fault," though. I think ultimately everyone must take responsibility for that type of life decision.

 

That said, El Collie committed suicide due to the pain from her spontaneous kundalini awakening. So, heavy detoxing and spiritual growing pains could push some people to their edges. Although most would stick it through that...and come out transformed for the better. Of course, a tiny few (probably already on their brink) might not have the strength to push past. No activity, from driving to giving birth, is 100% risk-free. But I think suicide has more to do with the individual person and their situation than the practice, though.

 

Well, I hope whoever did it can find peace.

Edited August 25, 2009 by vortex

[-O-]

...

 

 

Edited March 4, 2011 by -O-

[Biff]

Accusing someone of causing another's death is HORRIBLE SLANDER and that is illegal. And who said anything about money or suing? This is strictly about principle, man, and I think we can handle it in-house.

 

If you care so much about the man, why didn't we hear you chime in to his defense against this terrible slander. You're content to just sit back and allow that kind of thing?

 

I have posted the positive benefits and experiences, but they just seem to get glazed over in favor of the negative banter and baseless accusation. So, I present a fuller picture of what was happening behind the scenes to give perspective to those whose perspective is limited to what they read from haters on Tao Bums.

 

And I don't care squat for any credit in any of Max's accomplishments. His merit is his, not mine.

 

The point you missed (that I thought I made pretty clear) is that as great as the results you are getting can be, you can't help everybody. No matter how hard you try.

 

Someone will always feel slighted.

 

Yes, of course, everybody matters equally, and it wasn't an issue of friends or strangers, just time and need.

 

Peace.

 

P.S. Thank you everyone for the positive PM's.

 

Think you missed my point. But it does not matter really. FYI I have defended Max and you many times, again this is irrelevant. There are ways and means to deal with things, you have chosen your way. My opinion is your behaviour does just as much damage as TexasKnobs.

 

You know who -O- is, take it offline. Better still why doesn't Max give him a call? -O- might have made an accusation but has on this one thread done more to help people with the practice then you ever have. You are all about marketing. You need a real backbone, when you stop hiding behind Max and finally teach yourself you will begin to grow.

 

Like you say there will always someone that will feel slighted. Recognise your words and position has influence here and there will be less of them (the slighted) moving forward. You left here saying you will not answer questions and you have had enough. Now your back talking like a schoolkid. I can because I'm nobody, but you are the face of Kunlun. Is this what you want it to continue to be?

Edited August 25, 2009 by Biff

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[gendao]

The first student mentioned wasn't really anybody's student - she attended a lecture I gave call me once state a bouch of nonsense. During this conversation I told her that I felt that mediation was not a good idea for her at the time as I felt there was an issue with stability. Of course she did not like this and kept saying who taught you, who taught you - I told her Max Christensen and somewhere between there and a calling Max she got a hold of his number or email addresss - I still don't know how she got the information. So student one - not Max or anyone else - however I was told that she was threatening suicide to her communication with Max. I met with her about a month after the blow out wiht Max - I agreed to meet with her regardless of all the problems she casued for me - she threw things at got violent etc and did say off hand a few times, with no real affect that she would kill herslef on the spot then eventually calmed down. By the end of the conversation it came out that she had been in treatment for about a year and around the time of coming to my lecture they where cycling off of one medication to start a different treatment and this was causing allot of problems. Someone had told her that meditation might help her so that she didn't need the meds - so she attended my lecture. By the end of my last conversation with her, she did agree to continue with her current doctor and was calm and lucid when she left.

 

 

 

During the communiations between one of Max's students (can remeber the name), my wife and myself it came out that there was a current situation that Max was dealing with regarding the parents of a person who commited suicide who where looking to "hold someone responsible" - that this person was the taught meditation from a student of Max's, I believe or that they were looking to hold Max responsible. Again that is the extent of it.

Sounds like student 1 was not caused by or even really "associated" with Kunlun, much less Max. She was obviously already near the end of her rope when she grasped for a few last straws...

 

The 2nd case is just lacking too much info to draw any conclusion. I certainly wouldn't automatically assume Kunlun or Max to be at fault here though - if anything, the parents have a motive to find a scapegoat rather than hold their own child accountable for it.

 

BTW, thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I don't see what's wrong with that, since they are largely your own and not others'.

[sheng zhen]

- or for that matter all of them.

Would this bring peace to you all?

Winpro will probably be ok with that since he does that to all his own posts. But I hope you keep yours

[Guest winpro07]

My conscience says it is best to delete your posts. This is an open on line community with hundreds of thousands of views. Misrepresenting information and causing great harm to others in the public eye is very wrong

Good point.

 

I wasn't clear enough when I made the reference - for this I sincerely apologize as well as for any pain you may be experiencing.

I am willing to remove the posts which reference my personal experience - or for that matter all of them.

Would this bring peace to you all?

What is your conscience?

Edited August 25, 2009 by winpro07

[gendao]

My conscience says it is best to delete your posts. This is an open on line community with hundreds of thousands of views. Misrepresenting information and causing great harm to others in the public eye is very wrong

But what did he misrepresent?

 

He never said that Kunlun makes you suicidal. <-- Noobs read this!

There was just some discussion about a suicidal person who started inquiring about Kunlun.

And another whose parents were looking for a scapegoat ("rightly" so or not, is not known).

 

And no, this thread is not over until Godwin's Law kicks in!

[Creation]

I am willing to remove the posts which reference my personal experience - or for that matter all of them.

Would this bring peace to you all?

Please don't.

 

What you have shared has been an incredible reality check for me. The notion of RESPONSIBILITY of both the student and the teacher that you convey is very important, and it simply would not come through without your descriptions of your experiences.

 

I know it was hard for you to post what you did. Don't let that effort go to waste.

 

(It's not like you are bragging about what you saw when your third eye opened or something )

[Biff]

Please don't.

 

What you have shared has been an incredible reality check for me. The notion of RESPONSIBILITY of both the student and the teacher that you convey is very important, and it simply would not come through without your descriptions of your experiences.

 

I know it was hard for you to post what you did. Don't let that effort go to waste.

 

(It's not like you are bragging about what you saw when your third eye opened or something )

It's true,

 

The only real accusation here did not come from -O-. Several were directed towards him though.