Intention

[Ya Mu]

... I could be sorely mistaken, but it seems to me that meditation helps one to know, making it unnecessary to believe.

 

This is what I have found to be true as well. Believing is non-sense, knowing is what makes sense.

 

To answer the OP, I practice and teach a meditative form of qigong. We eliminate the mind from the equation and just "be". But we do put our awareness on the dan tian. Not anything to do with intention, however, as awareness in this case is the energy body's awareness. While having no intention of what is to happen I can tell you what SEERS SEE when they observe a person doing this over a period of time. First the dan tian gets more dense and starts to glow more brightly as the practice continues. As the practitioner continues, there is a white light that rises from the dan tian. As it gets to each energy center, that energy center opens. With continued practice the light shoots out of the top of the head and connects with the universe (source). This connection simply happens in a natural non-forced manner with no intention involved.

[CarsonZi]

Hi NeutralWire,

I get what she's saying, but I think it's just too far away from where I come from. I did and do indeed sit down to meditate with the expectation of becoming a better person, and I seem to succeed.

Ok sure. Good. But don't let it get you down and stop meditating if for whatever reason that experience doesn't continue. All states are impermanent. What goes up must come down if you get my drift, wink wink.

Personally, I certainly expect to improve in some way from jogging or something like that -- 'better person' is a little vague, but 'fitter person' would fit the bill.

But does fitter equal happier? If you jog because it is fun for you, then by all means jog away! But if jogging is a chore and you are only doing it with the expectation that it will somehow make you a happier person, then...

As for the idea that:

 

"It is wrong to think that if you could only get along with your boss at work that you would be a happier person"

 

... I'm afraid I simply disagree with it!

That's ok! You feel how you feel and that is great!

To me, the ability to work well with the people around me is an important virtue. The inability to get on with anyone at all usually seems to me to be an important tip-off about things inside myself that need work. And when I do the work successfully, I am indeed happier.

I think what Pema Chodron was meaning was more along the lines of "your happiness shouldn't be contingent on a relationship...any relationship."

Well this has been interesting! I am sure that both ways are valid, and personally I am much happier in a world with many different methods.

Yes indeed it has been interesting and I am glad that there are many roads to the same destination as well. Gratitudes for your perspective....it helps to make a more well rounded approach for all of us!

 

Love,

Carson

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[mwight]

my goal in meditation is to go into the emptiness, the void, beyond death. To a point in which reality breaks down, I can't feel my physical body, or the outside world. It's a wonderful place to be.

[Apech]

Namaste apepch7 and thanks for the reply!

 

OK. And based on what you say later in this post, I gather your intention in meditation is to "understand" correct? Can you not be disappointed coming out of meditation with this intention if you come away feeling more scattered, confused or restless? This can and does happen (at least occasionally) correct? So wouldn't it be more beneficial to let go of your intentions and just DO meditation like you do something that is habitual and done without any thought whatsoever?

 

 

 

 

 

Well no not really. I feel you may be arguing from a dualist point of view. You will only be disappointed if you go into meditation with an expectation. I don't - so without the kind of goal you suggest I don't get disappointed. I was trying to explain that intent and expectation are not the same thing.

 

No one, no matter what they say, starts meditating without some intent. Understanding is the first intent but this is not conditional on result. If I come out of meditation more confused or scattered then this is part of the process and will lead to better understanding, since it displays the nature of the mind.

 

Meditation is not 'habitual' or 'without thought'; as habitual refers to routines and inertic patterns which is not what meditation is about and there is nothing wrong with thought. Trying to meditate without thought is a form of dualism - it is better to look at 'mind-as-is' and understand its nature.

 

There is a good story in 100,000 songs of Milarepa called "Women's role in Dharma' which deals with this.

Edited February 5, 2009 by apepch7

[NeutralWire]

I did and do indeed sit down to meditate with the expectation of becoming a better person, and I seem to succeed.

 

Ok sure. Good. But don't let it get you down and stop meditating if for whatever reason that experience doesn't continue. All states are impermanent. What goes up must come down if you get my drift, wink wink.

 

I thought I mentioned already that I let go of the outcome?

 

Of course, in my many years of spiritual practice there certainly have been 'ups and downs' but this doesn't make any difference to what I'm saying.

 

I do seek and never would let go of seeking. Magicians must act in the physical world so they must seek things. So to me the real point is not to be deterred by thoughts of outcome and constantly judging the situation. You learn to let go of that because just letting go of success is what brings success.

 

And that's true of success and failure. If I fail I continue with equal commitment, and if I succeed likewise. It couldn't really be different. The situation I'm in is the situation I'm in.

 

If you jog because it is fun for you, then by all means jog away! But if jogging is a chore and you are only doing it with the expectation that it will somehow make you a happier person, then...

 

If you are talking about false expectations there, this is different subject for me. When I jog the outcome I want is not 'happiness', it is 'fitness', which I definitely am seeking because I prefer it to 'unfitness'. So to me, yes, I will be happier being fitter. To be well is definitely better than to be unwell, even though in the end one must continue either way. (This is the concept of the 'preferred indifferent'.) But of course I try not to seek something where it can't be found. To me it is a big part of wisdom to choose to do something for the right reasons and to learn what does what in your life.

 

Of course to me it is not really about 'fun' exactly either. It's alot deeper than that, but I'm sure you would agree. I definitely believe in being totally focussed and absorbed in what one is doing, but not because it's fun exactly -- just, because it's what you're doing!

 

How about this: the way I look at things is the way a cheetah looks at things. If the cheetah hunts but fails to kill, you don't see her say: "What a bummer. Life sucks. I wish I was anything except a cheetah. How come this happens so much?" No, she walks off calmly and later tries again. The consequences of failure would be severe, especially if she has children, but this doesn't enter her mind, and she doesn't become anxious about it, lose sleep and so on. (Glenn Morris would say, 'she knows how to use her adrenals.')

 

When she hunts, it is not 'because it is fun'! It is not to do with seriousness and not do with fun, it is to do with life and her intention to live in the cheetah way. Her intention is to hunt, kill and feed, but whether she succeeds or not, she remains herself and in the flow of the way things are. Without the intention she could not hunt and could not live, could not be herself. So she has intention and she does seek something. But if she fails, she doesn't become depressed. She continues, because there is nothing to gain by leaving the present moment to bitch and whine about the past. She accepts the situation as just what it is. And what about when she succeeds? After the meal, it is the same as before. Continue. Of course!

 

This is the same with me and meditation. I think in the end we are talking about the same thing -- full commitment in a way -- but the idea of 'not seeking' is definitely foreign to me.

 

~NeutralWire~

[CarsonZi]

Namaste apepch7,

Well no not really. I feel you may be arguing from a dualist point of view. You will only be disappointed if you go into meditation with an expectation. I don't - so without the kind of goal you suggest I don't get disappointed. I was trying to explain that intent and expectation are not the same thing.

I guess the difference between us then is that I personally see intent and expectation as intrinsically linked. Can't have one without the other from my perspective. But that is just my opinion and we are all entitled to our own.. I can respect yours I hope you can respect mine.

No one, no matter what they say, starts meditating without some intent.

Yes, I can agree with that. And when we start it is always with an egoic intent....but what I have found through personal experience is that once we start the practice of twice daily meditation, our intent for continuing changes. We stop doing meditation because of the reasons we started (ie. I think meditation will make me a better person) and start continuing meditation because it IS making us a better person. (not believing but knowing through experience.) And then as we continue even that intent will change....for me I now do meditation not for my own benefit but for the benefit of those around me. Make any sense at all?

Understanding is the first intent but this is not conditional on result. If I come out of meditation more confused or scattered then this is part of the process and will lead to better understanding, since it displays the nature of the mind.

A healthy understanding by any perspective.

Meditation is not 'habitual' or 'without thought'; as habitual refers to routines and inertic patterns which is not what meditation is about and there is nothing wrong with thought. Trying to meditate without thought is a form of dualism - it is better to look at 'mind-as-is' and understand its nature.

Meditation CAN be habitual, and it is very powerful when done this way. This is my personal experience and your milage may vary as always. When I sit down to meditate and think anything about any sort of outcome, this is less productive then just sitting down to meditate like I sit down to eat. This is just my experience but it IS my experience none the less. And yes, TRYING to meditate without the mind is not productive, BUT actually meditating and not clinging to thought is more productive (again in my experience) then allowing yourself to get caught up in mind stories while you are "trying" to meditate.

There is a good story in 100,000 songs of Milarepa called "Women's role in Dharma' which deals with this.

I will look for it. Thank you for the suggestion. Namaste.

 

Love,

Carson

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[steve]

Seems practical. Not sure if you are meaning that the meditator is the one improving but to me meditation for the benefit or the rest of the world, not ourselves, would be more of a noble cause then to meditate for your own personal benefit though. Perhaps that is what you are meaning, not sure.

 

If the meditator is improving, the world is improving, is it not? Albeit, a small part of the world, but the world nonetheless.

On the other hand, who said meditation is necessarily noble?

Most folks who meditate at a very serious level sequester themselves away from the world.

The Daoists don't seem to make any concessions to nobility - cultivation is a selfish pursuit.

Nevertheless, as each individual achieves peace with themselves and wakes up to their true Self, the world is a better place, IMO...

[CarsonZi]

Namaste NeutralWire,

I thought I mentioned already that I let go of the outcome?

Sorry, just reiterating myself I guess. Not necessary and I am sorry for repeating myself.

I do seek and never would let go of seeking.

That's fine my friend.....to each their own! I personally chose to let go of trying to "find" something that I know exists within myself. To me it was more a matter of "realizing" as opposed to "seeking and finding". But again, to each their own.

Magicians must act in the physical world so they must seek things.

Everyone, not just magicians must act in the physical world, but that doesn't mean we need to "seek" anything. Everything you seek you already have. IMO of course.

So to me the real point is not to be deterred by thoughts of outcome and constantly judging the situation. You learn to let go of that because just letting go of success is what brings success.

I agree 100% with this statement. Thank you.

And that's true of success and failure. If I fail I continue with equal commitment, and if I succeed likewise. It couldn't really be different. The situation I'm in is the situation I'm in.

The way I see it, there is are no "successes" and there are no "failures". Everything is what it is. Learning to love what IS, is the real key IMO.

If you are talking about false expectations there, this is different subject for me. When I jog the outcome I want is not 'happiness', it is 'fitness', which I definitely am seeking because I prefer it to 'unfitness'.

Understood, but you are still missing what I am trying to get across with this....without expectations of what "might" or "should" happen if you engage in any particular activity, the only outcome possible is pure happiness. That's all I was trying to say. Hope that makes a little more sense to you.

So to me, yes, I will be happier being fitter. To be well is definitely better than to be unwell, even though in the end one must continue either way. (This is the concept of the 'preferred indifferent'.)

You may think so, but once you realize true happiness that has no bearing on anything, being fit, being unfit, being healthy or being sick means nothing....you are not your body, and the journey does not end in death.

But of course I try not to seek something where it can't be found. To me it is a big part of wisdom to choose to do something for the right reasons and to learn what does what in your life.

I personally prefer to let my "inner guru" guide my actions. Thinking too much about "right reasons" and such puts my mind in too much control...I prefer to let God do with me as he sees fit, and I try to just get outta the way.

Of course to me it is not really about 'fun' exactly either. It's alot deeper than that, but I'm sure you would agree. I definitely believe in being totally focussed and absorbed in what one is doing, but not because it's fun exactly -- just, because it's what you're doing!

When you are happy with what IS, then all there is is fun! Life is a big joke! Don't take anything too seriously.

How about this: the way I look at things is the way a cheetah looks at things. If the cheetah hunts but fails to kill, you don't see her say: "What a bummer. Life sucks. I wish I was anything except a cheetah. How come this happens so much?" No, she walks off calmly and later tries again. The consequences of failure would be severe, especially if she has children, but this doesn't enter her mind, and she doesn't become anxious about it, lose sleep and so on. (Glenn Morris would say, 'she knows how to use her adrenals.')

 

When she hunts, it is not 'because it is fun'! It is not to do with seriousness and not do with fun, it is to do with life and her intention to live in the cheetah way. Her intention is to hunt, kill and feed, but whether she succeeds or not, she remains herself and in the flow of the way things are. Without the intention she could not hunt and could not live, could not be herself. So she has intention and she does seek something. But if she fails, she doesn't become depressed. She continues, because there is nothing to gain by leaving the present moment to bitch and whine about the past. She accepts the situation as just what it is. And what about when she succeeds? After the meal, it is the same as before. Continue. Of course!

 

This is the same with me and meditation. I think in the end we are talking about the same thing -- full commitment in a way -- but the idea of 'not seeking' is definitely foreign to me.

A good analogy, but we (humans) are not like cheetahs. We have "rational" minds. We do not operate purely on instinct. If we did, things would be a lot different. Probably better

Thanks again for the stimulating conversation, hope I haven't offended you by not agreeing on everything 100%. That's the beauty of this community in my eyes. So many people with so many different practices and so many different perspectives. So much to learn from this forum. I love it. Namaste.

 

Love,

Carson

[Apech]

Namaste apepch7,

 

 

Meditation CAN be habitual, and it is very powerful when done this way. This is my personal experience and your milage may vary as always. When I sit down to meditate and think anything about any sort of outcome, this is less productive then just sitting down to meditate like I sit down to eat. This is just my experience but it IS my experience none the less. And yes, TRYING to meditate without the mind is not productive, BUT actually meditating and not clinging to thought is more productive (again in my experience) then allowing yourself to get caught up in mind stories while you are "trying" to meditate.

 

I will look for it. Thank you for the suggestion. Namaste.

 

Love,

Carson

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Just to clarify - when I referred to understanding I did not mean intellectual knowledge but rather an awareness of the nature of mind, being or reality - whichever you like. I still have a problem with 'habit' but I won't split hairs .

 

Best wishes and good luck in all your work.

 

Apepch7.

[CarsonZi]

Namaste xuesheng,

If the meditator is improving, the world is improving, is it not? Albeit, a small part of the world, but the world nonetheless.

If the meditator is improving the whole world is improving, agreed. I wouldn't agree necessarily that it is a "small" part though. Each person actively engaged in a sadhana of any kind is going to positively influence everyone around him. This can make great changes in the world....small, maybe on the grand scale, but I choose to see this as BIG changes. Just my perspective and really only semantics. Sorry for digressing.

On the other hand, who said meditation is necessarily noble?

Noone. Well I guess maybe I did, but I didn't necessarily mean it how you are taking it.

Most folks who meditate at a very serious level sequester themselves away from the world.

I personally see this a "running". Escapism. I find it much more difficult to be a serious householder Yogi, then to sequester myself in a cave somewhere. I don't consider these meditators any more "serious" then anyone else actively engaged in personal sadhana. My opinion nothing more.

The Daoists don't seem to make any concessions to nobility - cultivation is a selfish pursuit.

Selfish yet who benefits? Everyone, so is it really all that selfish? wink wink.

Nevertheless, as each individual achieves peace with themselves and wakes up to their true Self, the world is a better place, IMO...

My opinion is the same. Blessings and namaste.

 

Love,

Carson

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[gendao]

You cannot see stars in the daytime.

[CarsonZi]

You cannot see stars in the daytime.

You can if you hit your head hard enough! haha

[steve]

This can make great changes in the world....small, maybe on the grand scale, but I choose to see this as BIG changes. Just my perspective and really only semantics.

I agree with you. There was a time when I was angry and terribly frustrated at the pain and suffering in the world and I felt helpless to do anything about it. Eventually I realized that the best thing I could possibly do is make a difference in myself first.

[CarsonZi]

Namaste Steve,

I agree with you. There was a time when I was angry and terribly frustrated at the pain and suffering in the world and I felt helpless to do anything about it. Eventually I realized that the best thing I could possibly do is make a difference in myself first.

Anger and it's lesser degrees frustration, aggravation, irritation etc. all stem from having issues with reality. People will suffer. That is reality. To argue with what IS, is to seperate ourselves from the Love. The best thing we can do is accept what is and work on ourselves. You got it Bro. Best of luck.

 

Love,

Carson

[Guest sykkelpump]

my goal in meditation is to go into the emptiness, the void, beyond death. To a point in which reality breaks down, I can't feel my physical body, or the outside world. It's a wonderful place to be.

 

Yes,that is the real meditative state.I love it to

[steve]

Anyone interested in the intention of meditation or the "real meditative state" would probably find it worthwhile to read Jiddu Krishnamurti. In particular, he wrote a book specifically on meditation called This Light in Oneself. Whether you agree with his views or not, you are bound to be stimulated by his non-approach to meditation. I am strongly biased because his non-method helped me immeasurably.

[ddilulo_06]

Surrender... but I don't sit down formally to TRY to surrender anymore.

Edited February 5, 2009 by ddilulo_06

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Hi, I'm new to the forums and this seems like the perfect topic for a first post. Sorry if my post is kinda scrambled looking, I don't post on forums too often. To me meditation is not some mystical zone you go into, or just clearing your mind, but is about being aware. I personally meditate hours a day. In car rides, in class when not taking notes, or any time I'm idly waiting on something. Meditation also has many purposes, and it all depends on where your intention or focus lies. The general Western view is that it is just about "clearing your mind and relaxing", and that is a part of it. Realizing the depth of your breath, general body feeling, quality of speech are all meditations that I constantly use to gauge how I am feeling throughout the day.

 

There is also more of the mystical/ trancendental meditation which has to do with changing consciousness (Jhanas). These ones are best done when you have plenty of time, and do not expect interruptions. WIth these I take an unallotted amount of time to sit down to draw a blank mind and slow your breathing rate to a very slow rate (almost like when you're asleep). Then you meditate on a subject such as happiness, and keep that thought steady in your mind. Realize how your breath changes, how your body starts to feel, and how you feel (The important part is that you simply realize these sensations, but do NOT respond to them. To not switch awareness to any new sensations, physically react, or try to change your breathing). Simply keep an unyielding focus on that one thought of happiness, and you might possibly have a spontaneous trancendental experience (With me and my first experience it was a spontaneous full body orgasm. It felt orgasm traveling from my scrotum through the spine the top of head, to third eye, a crazy pumping sensation at both location, and a spreading of the orgasmic chemical from the third eye to every cell of my body, uncontrollable spasming. No recollection of time or anything else, just pure drunk with ecstasy and bliss. After maybe 30? seconds of that when I regained control my consciousness was completely changed. All I could feel was pure bliss, love, peace, understanding, empathy, connection, relaxation, pure awareness, joy, contentment for everything, and for the next 2 days with degrading quality). In the past I've also done Molly (ecstasy), so I know what the best feelings of empathy, love, and joy that most common people can relate to. But this feeling was literally 3x better than the best you could ever take. Ever since that day I had not touched drugs, because the possibilities that exist naturally far surpass anything that a drug can give you. . ANyways Here's a link that kind of describes the jhanas http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/jhana-2.html . That same day I actually helped someone else get the same experience. If enough people are curious as to exactly how it happened, step for step in my mind and by sensations I would post the story if you guys wanted.

 

Yah, all meditation is simply about awareness. People tend to hear basic principles about these philosophies and get way too caught up in concepts (Reincarnation, the "void", emptiness, trancendence) and have no direct experience. People who get angry keep their awareness on thoughts of anger, and therefore pump themselves full of that energy. If you are in love and stare in your lovers eyes, you are filled with that energy. When singers go on stage they have to channel that energy. That is the principle of the Universe, and energy attracts energy. People who are joyful and keep their mind on that wavelength attract people of like mind. These same principles govern the reason why there is a medical term called the "placebo effect". The only thing that the Easter philosophies try to teach you is to be aware of what's going on inside of you when you channel these subtle energies. Once you as a person align yourself with the proper energies, you will start to experience many of the states that these philosophies talk about. You can't bring love into the world if you don't love yourself first.

Hope that helps some of you guys ^^

Edited February 5, 2009 by Tsurugi_Oni

[rain]

nothing

[NeutralWire]

Hey CarsonZi

 

hope I haven't offended you by not agreeing on everything 100%.

 

Oh don't give that another thought! All that disappoints me though is where you say:

 

you are still missing what I am trying to get across with this

 

... because I really thought I understood. But perhaps I really don't!

 

Help me out here... clarify a little more. For example you said:

 

there is are no "successes" and there are no "failures"

 

... now what do you mean by that?

 

For me, it seems that success and failure exist and that they matter. Perhaps one could also take the view though, that although they exist they do not have any real significance. Or do you mean that they simply don't exist, they are meaningless words?

 

Just out of interest!

 

~NeutralWire~

[ddilulo_06]

nothing

haha! thanks

[CarsonZi]

Namaste NeutralWire and sorry if I am confusing you....not my intention!

For me, it seems that success and failure exist and that they matter. Perhaps one could also take the view though, that although they exist they do not have any real significance. Or do you mean that they simply don't exist, they are meaningless words?

What I mean when I say that there are no "successes" or "failures" is simply, we do what we do, and everything that happens is happening according to the will of God. WE as simple humans may see something we do as "in error" and indeed it may have been by some perspectives ours included...BUT this mistake is what we needed to make in order to continue on in our journey. Nothing happens by accident, everything has purpose and beating ourselves up over mistakes (or successes) is not productive. Learning from these mistakes is necessary so we don't repeat them, but making mistakes is natural and necessary. So in that respect there is no "successes" and no "Failures", there is only what IS. Make more sense now?

 

Love,

Carson

[WhiteTiger]

Why have an Intention?

 

One of my most favorite things about good Taoists practicing Internal Alchemy, they have trained to not have any intentions, with you, around you... and so forth.

[CarsonZi]

Why have an Intention?

Exactly. Don't intend, just DO.

Edited February 5, 2009 by CarsonZi

[WhiteTiger]

Exactly. Don't intend, just DO.

 

While you might understand to not intend just Do... I feel or think your still missing pieces.

 

People in the Here and Now (in the present moment) can also have Intentions.

 

In Chinese their is a word "Yi" It roughly translates in english to mean Intent... The meaning is slightly different though.

 

Intent = A persons Intentions

Intent = What a person intends to do

 

In mainstream Buddhism they talk or express it slightly differently.

 

 

Speaking about BEING in the HERE AND NOW you don't intend (like you don't try you just DO) Is one theory.

 

But what I'm referring to is Why have an Intention at all?

Thats what I'm asking.