Clearing up Dhamma and Tao

[modestman]

Hello everyone

 

I have been studying/practicing the Tao and Dhamma and would like to clear somethings up, if anyone else has some contribution or belief please post as the more discussion the better.

 

First of all Dogma is not to be found in the true teachings of the Buddha or Lao Tzu.

 

As common ground, I have found that people like to attach/cling to any form, feeling, concept/view, etc. Due to this nature people engage in arguing, conflict, and suffering.

 

While many people cling to buddhism views and perspectives they cling to the concepts not the true teachings. This is important because the Buddha did not teach Buddhism he taught the middle way - the path that leads to nibbana (the end of suffering). This path is one of being aware of the Dhamma - the natural qualities of the way things are. These qualities are that all conditioned phenomena is always changing, bound up with suffering, and not having any permanent substance (self). By clinging and wanting conditioned phenomena we create suffering. The way out of this suffering is through the path of morality, concentration, and wisdom. Which generates mindfulness/awareness that leads to the simplicity of observation and seeing things as they really are oppose to conditioned views and opinions.

 

Lao Tzu essentially taught the same essence of the middle taught by the Buddha - non-attachment, removal of excessive desires, and refuge in simplicity and awareness. Recognizing the Tao is seeing things beyond conceptual knowledge, recognizing their true nature.

 

Therefore the Tao and the Dhamma are essentially the same. Recognizing or being one with the Tao/Dhamma is to recognize the way things are without attachment embracing (not neglecting) them as they come and go as objects. To be able to clearly recognize them without judgement is to be aware and this awareness is what I perceive to be the heart of Buddhism and the Tao.

 

Tao - The way things are; embracing opposites and change

Dhamma - The way things are; embracing opposities and change

 

Buddha - One who became enlightened to the Dhamma

Lao Tzu - One who became enlightened to the Tao

 

This again is the way I understood both teachings. I have mainly studied Buddhism as when I was a beginner it provided a better basis/path as a new comer to the Tao can often be confused by some of the teachings. However as I continued studying, meditating, and reflecting on these teachings it became more apparent they both embrace the middle way of observation rather than attachment to extremist views.

 

I hope this will clear some things up for some people who have some doubt on Buddha vs. Lao Tzu. I know Lao Tzu predates the Buddha in historical timeline, I do not value one teacher over another but rather see the value/resemblance in their teachings.

 

 

Metta

Modestman

Edited January 30, 2009 by modestman

[Squatting Monkey]

Both are very complimentary to each other.

The teachings of the Buddha are an excellent way to know the nature of the mind.

The Tao encompasses all religions/belief systems.

[Sunya]

i see them as complimentary but only if you don't take either too seriously.. depends on your style.

both are pointings and have different methods and philosophies for pointing you beyond ego to the infinite non-dual reality. buddhism uses more of a reduction method with the philosophy of emptiness and no-self, while taoism is about harmony with the tao, balance. the goal of buddhism is to end suffering, which is identical to finding your true nature, union with the Tao or whatever. so while i think in goal they are the same, they differ slightly in method and more so in philosophy. its hard to match the two philosophies together because of the apparent difference, buddhism focuses on the everchanging, compounded, and interdependent aspect of reality while taoism looks at the whole picture, the eternal tao, never changing (i think). different view points. oh and if both interest you, look into tibetan high tantra like Dzogchen, i find this to be a very interesting blend of buddhism and shamanism and sounds a lot like taoism sometimes

[WhiteTiger]

I could be wrong although, my understanding is there are Tibetan buddhism (supposedly named) practices that are same/similar to Chinese Taoism. They just incorperate a whole bunch of Buddhist things... that I'm well don't know much about.

 

Modestman, I'm not so sure how much you know about Taoism. Everyone can talk about general terms and it only applies to everything generally (Meaning its not alway holds true) While everyone at the same time can talk about specifics (Meaning it not always encompasses the "whole")

 

Modestman, that is an interesting view of Buddhism. May I ask what type(s) are you referring to that teach this? So I have a more specified but general idea of what your talking about.

[modestman]

The difference between the view of eternal Tao and the Buddhist perspective of impermanence is something people don't usually want to look at. But this is very similar if one looks closely. I believe Buddhism operates more as a method/path of getting to the refined as Philosophical Tao talks more about the characteristics of the refined.

 

When Buddhists say ever-changing they are referring to conditioned phenomena (form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness).

 

Therefore even when you "hear" a sound, this recognition is impermanent because this sound-consciousness (being aware of sound) depends on the object (initial sound). This is the Buddhist view it can get rather complicated conceptually. What they do consider eternal is awareness. They state that this 'original mind' is always present but when one is not aware of their moods or thoughts; the thoughts or mood tend to take over and one loses mindfulness. Therefore this initial awareness is ever present but due to lack of mindfulness we become entangled in greed, aversion, and delusion.

 

So being one with the Tao is essentially being one who is aware. What are they aware of? They are aware of the way things are through observation rather than conceptual knowledge of relating.

 

In summary my understanding is that Philosophical Tao talks more about the goal of being in this eternal state of awareness; while Buddhism is more of an approach guideline to get to this end goal. The Buddha used many approaches to help guide different students among the path but we realize this eternal state is ever present but our over striving and unwholesome views/actions have misled us.

 

I like the line in the Tao Te Ching 53 -

 

The great Tao is broad and plain

But people like the side paths

 

I like to relate this to our 'original state' as talked about in Buddhism. We are always aware but we run off with but when we deviate from this state with moods, thoughts, and desires we get sidetracked and lost.

 

 

Whitetiger: I do not follow any religious Taoism or anything. I am only fond of the Tao Te Ching. Buddhism however I studied Theravada Buddhism.

[WhiteTiger]

Ah thank you very much for taking the time to explain these things to me... I've already learned so much in a short period of time of reading it.

 

Once again thank you.