meg

"Heaven"?

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hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

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At least in part the laws of heaven are Astronomical, (& interpreted/seen as somewhat astrological also). The changes of the sun and moon and planets that have such a pull on our earth's seasons etc...The Tao moves the heavens from a broader base of creativity and receptivity...Wheels within wheels as it were...

 

But also within ourselves we are potentially guided by higher-(heavenly) ideals that are in turn generated by the Tao...So thats how I see what is being addressed here- love to all-Pat

Edited by Wayfarer64

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hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

I'm guessing Earth = physical 3rd plane

Heaven = spiritual astral planes

Tao = the Creator, not the created

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I'll tell you how to actually SEE what the Dao de Jing describes as "Heaven".

 

Go to an airport, to where you can watch the arrivals, and simply watch the exchanges between people who obviously care for and Love each other.

 

This is especially true when military folks come home from Iraq and Afghanistan, the beauty of the Love displayed is absolutely "Heaven".

 

I've actually DONE this, and it's overwhelmingly beautiful, and I encourage YOU to do it too.

 

Another place to see the "Heaven" described in the DDJ/TTC:

 

Go to your local hospital's birthing floor, and watch new parents exchange with their new arrivals, through the glass.

 

This is touching down to your toes! :D

 

"Heaven" on earth!

 

It doesn't get any BETTER!

 

 

Peace, gossamer/Albion

 

 

 

 

 

hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

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heaven. imo = anything that isn't here on the earth. the whole spectrum, from tangible planets and energies to very low or very high frequencies, some of which some can see and some can not see, (and as far as the concept of "true" and "truth" goes) anyone who can see more than anyone else, sees more and knows more than anyone who does not. and not is it that if a majority does not see it that the majority is right, on the contrary, "special"/(and)individual people (in this case) may be more right than anyone else in any matter.

 

it may seem as a contradiction, and it is. but really it is not. :o;)

 

(for your consideration)

 

i.e. the (developed) individual knows much more than any consensus group can know because of: A. people not wanting to believe another (or pretending not to believe another). and B. people not wanting to be not believed. and C. other factors.

 

i.e. it is better to take someone who is sincere seriously than it would be not to. c.q. not everything that is commonly believed is true. (a mistake that has been made a lot so far and is still made some times. i.e. a lot of people don't still yet see this intrinsic Value.)

Edited by froggie

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Religious Taoism has a heaven just like Christians do.

 

Buddhism has a big fat guy whose belly you rub for good luck, but I think we all know the idea of the Buddha has more to it than a metaphor for a wishing well. I wonder if "Religious Taoism" falls under the same line of thinking as belly-rubbing of deities.

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Buddhism has a big fat guy whose belly you rub for good luck, but I think we all know the idea of the Buddha has more to it than a metaphor for a wishing well. I wonder if "Religious Taoism" falls under the same line of thinking as belly-rubbing of deities.

 

I would say most of it does.

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I think heaven has to do with the higher planes and those who dwell there such as ascended beings and whatever native things are from there. But, who are we to say there is no Jade Emperor ruling the Chinese heavens? Whats so bad about the idea of a heaven? Can fish understand a monkey? Can humans understand an angel? I've been OBE so many times I can see how a heavan can exist but to be honest, I have never seen it.

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I would say most of it does.

 

I was expecting disagreement so I figured I would phrase my statement ambivalently. Turns out I really should have just said "religion is spirituality mixed with superstition, and the latter has no use".

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heaven or the heavens are just other planes, higher ones if you will. when you know them directly it is simple untill then it is just a waste of thought. the heavens of the religions are real just not ultimate. if you can OBE ( not a great discription) then you can visit higher planes. the skill is related, just a few other keys to the formula.

 

metta

adam

 

I think heaven has to do with the higher planes and those who dwell there such as ascended beings and whatever native things are from there. But, who are we to say there is no Jade Emperor ruling the Chinese heavens? Whats so bad about the idea of a heaven? Can fish understand a monkey? Can humans understand an angel? I've been OBE so many times I can see how a heavan can exist but to be honest, I have never seen it.

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hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

 

if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading.

the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live...

-

daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion...

it points to the network of nature.

humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not...

earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth

 

tian is rebound to dao

 

dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself

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I was expecting disagreement so I figured I would phrase my statement ambivalently. Turns out I really should have just said "religion is spirituality mixed with superstition, and the latter has no use".

 

You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy.

 

The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites.

 

Too bad you see only superstition..... :(

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You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy.

 

The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites.

 

Too bad you see only superstition..... :(

 

And would it not be nice if thats all there was, and a general understanding of what it is. Unfortunatly this is rarely the case amongst the practitioners of mass religions.

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You walk into a church and see superstition? I walk into a church and notice the principles of Sacred Geometry in its architecture and observing a ritual designed to raise the consciousness of the worshippers through a dramatic reinactment in symbolic form of a mans life and death that represents the Hero's Journey or the process of enlightenment and alchemy.

 

The Catholic Liturgical year is a symbolic representation of the alchemical process as laid out in WESTERN and TAOIST ALCHEMY! Its not superstition but an intuitive tool used to lead a person with enough insight to enlightenment. Thats what the rituals are for. If all you see is superstition then study some kabbalah. Many religions are the same with their rites and buddhism has the same properties as does the old Jewish sacrificial rites.

 

Too bad you see only superstition..... :(

 

To say I ONLY see superstition is to say I see only dirt in a puddle of cloudy water. A few particles of sediment doesn't mean affect the existence of the water molecules in any way. They're simply in a cruder state, like the ore or a metal. But I am not blind to the fact that certain limiting beliefs such as "Jesus died for my sins, so now if I confess to a priest and say 20 Hail Marys, I am absolved of guilt" are superstition. I've done extensive study on many holy books though, from activities of the angelic beings in the Old Testament to the motivations behind Mohammed's teachings. The New Testament has always been my favourite though. Just enough magic thrown in with plenty of good lessons. It's too bad it is always seen as the sequel to the Old Testament, as if the messages of the two books are even remotely similar...

 

And don't get my started on alchemy, I could talk for days! ;)

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if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading.

the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live...

-

daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion...

it points to the network of nature.

humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not...

earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth

 

tian is rebound to dao

 

dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself

 

Makes sense to me... :)

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if your refer to daodejing 25 - then i would say the translation "heaven" is misleading.

the english word "heaven" points to a realm where gods live...

-

daodejing 25 - end points to something different in my oppinion...

it points to the network of nature.

humans are rebound to earth - earth determines what they can do or not...

earth is rebound to qi of what surrounds it - call it tian (i am afraid that there is no english word for it)- this polarity determines what happens on earth

 

tian is rebound to dao

 

dao's principles are ziran - in nature things happen according to its innermost rules rooting in itself

 

its important to remember that heaven is a term used to describe the universe.

EX. "god created the heavens and the earth"

heavens refers to space and the bodies within space.

 

ive always thought that this is the way that heaven is used in taoist literature.

 

when practicing chikung and gathering heaven qi it means to gather the qi in the universe.

 

the planets can sometimes be refered to as angels or dieties.

astral deva, planetar, solar angel.

 

so heaven in this sense could have a symbolic meaning.

 

the quoted post seems to be a good explanation.

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wow! thanks everyone. i'm still not sure where i stand with the whole thing, but that's ok :)

 

i read this last night:

 

"There was a man who was so worried that heaven and earth might collapse, and that he would have nowhere to go, that he forgot to eat and sleep. He had a friend who was greatly worried about him, and went to reassure him.

 

The friend said: 'Heaven is nothing but air; it cannot collapse.' The man said: 'If heaven is air, then the sun, the moon and the stars are liable to fall out of heaven, and hit people on earth.' The friend replied: 'The sun, the moon and the stars are simply lights inside air; they cannot fall down.'"

 

But really i suppose, what does it all matter, right? but even as i say that, i'm anxious about the answer. but following the Way does not involve anxiety. so.........yah, :blink: i guess you know what im getting at lol.

 

thank you all for your imput :)

 

meg

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its important to remember that heaven is a term used to describe the universe.

EX. "god created the heavens and the earth"

heavens refers to space and the bodies within space.

 

ive always thought that this is the way that heaven is used in taoist literature.

 

when practicing chikung and gathering heaven qi it means to gather the qi in the universe.

 

the planets can sometimes be refered to as angels or dieties.

astral deva, planetar, solar angel.

 

so heaven in this sense could have a symbolic meaning.

 

the quoted post seems to be a good explanation.

 

:rolleyes:

yah yah...that's it!

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hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

 

Perhaps it means more than one thing.

One thing it refers to is the alchemical transmutation law As Above , So Below

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hi everyone. could you tell me what "heaven" means in this quote?

 

People conform to

the Laws of the Earth.

 

The Earth conforms to

the Law of Heaven.

 

Heaven conforms to

the Way (Tao)

 

The Tao conforms to

its own nature.

 

-Lao Tzu

 

I'm never quite sure what taoists/ism mean by "heaven".

thanks

meg

Your Dao De Jing chapter 25 quote looks like this in all versions (including the Guodian Laozi):

 

ren2 fa3 di4

people standard earth

di4 fa3 tian1

earth standard heaven

tian1 fa3 dao4

heaven standard Dao

dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2

Dao standard self so

 

Put in short: fa3 standard was the non-confucian solution to rectifying names. The confucian policy was, that the ruler, using either an innate or acquired intuition, was supposed to settle the correct language use. Shen Dao had the sociological point of view, that the ruler will influence usage. The mohists agreed with him, but maintained that tian1 heaven should be taken as the ultimate fa3 standard.

 

Dao De Jing has four fa3 standards. tian1 heaven is involved in two of the standards. That's why there is no single answer to your question, because the answer depends on the fa3 standard used! Or put in other words: earth standard sky and heaven standard Dao.

 

lienshan

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Im not quite sure that there is any definite interpretation. As you already know this journey is yours, so define heaven as you may. Listen to many different views without prejudice, without resistance caused by your current convictions, and absorb each peice without choosing one as the answer. You will probably realize that your unrefined outlook, your initial outlook that is, was more precise than any other. Go with that deep down feeling. Use your eyes to study, but after gathering the input, do not resort to reasoning or words. It is very dificult not to contaminate those intial feelings, those feelings that are characteristic of awareness. We allow are thoughts and lodged emotions to interfere with that process of inborne truth, but do not worry, inevitably we will harness the truth, if we havent already. Well, I kinda went off the deep end here and ended up giving advice, maybe it will help, maybe it wont, but either way it will. Back to Lao:

 

" :D There are ways but the way is uncharted,

there are names but not nature in words"

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Im not quite sure that there is any definite interpretation. As you already know this journey is yours, so define heaven as you may. Listen to many different views without prejudice, without resistance caused by your current convictions, and absorb each peice without choosing one as the answer. You will probably realize that your unrefined outlook, your initial outlook that is, was more precise than any other. Go with that deep down feeling. Use your eyes to study, but after gathering the input, do not resort to reasoning or words. It is very dificult not to contaminate those intial feelings, those feelings that are characteristic of awareness. We allow are thoughts and lodged emotions to interfere with that process of inborne truth, but do not worry, inevitably we will harness the truth, if we havent already. Well, I kinda went off the deep end here and ended up giving advice, maybe it will help, maybe it wont, but either way it will. Back to Lao:

 

" :D There are ways but the way is uncharted,

there are names but not nature in words"

 

oh i love you! (ok, a bit dramatic lol), but that is just what i needed to hear :) I may have posted something similar to this a while back, but I've been taught since I was little, that Jesus was It. that you had to believe in Him in order to go to heaven. So now that i am older (41), i sometimes feel, "ugh, it's just all too confusing, fine, i believe........." you know? Or i get afraid that i will be a fraud and on my death bed be scared and admit (?) that Jesus is the answer. Do you follow me? I NEED to have confidence in my inner feelings. you are so right that "it is difficult not to contaminate those initial feelings". Jesus/the new testament has many many similarities to the tao te ching. i just have a hard time swallowing the idea that you HAVE to believe "In Him"...or else. It just doesnt seem right. But i dont mind if others believe that. I just need to find a place that i am confortable with. i found taoism a long time ago, and i believe it is my Home :) :)

 

Thanks (everyone)

:rolleyes:

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I think there would be different layers of heaven. Like Tibetan Buddhism speaks of Bardos. Well, I think that that John Changs description of heaven from the book "The Magus of Java" is the most common sensical description. He mentioned a spirit, whom was haunting a house, being a muslim that was offended by the non muslim ways of it's new household. The narrator asked john how a spirit could be a muslim and john explained that the spirit wasn't ready to part with it's earthly ways yet.

 

He later mentioned how he was meditating and was taken through different levels of heaven and hell. One of the layers of heaven had ghosts feasting on imaginary food. John also claimed that God talked to him during that meditation and told John that the purest heaven is when you come to God. God told John that he was not clean enough to go to God.

 

Then he visited spirits in what could be a hell, which he described as a cold dark place. The spirits told john that they hurt. It frightened John and he fled those realms quickly. It's also interesting to note that pretty much every mainstream religion informs that every soul will eventually return to heaven. Even Christianity when read in Greek, which was the origional language of the New Testament. The word for Eternity in Greek actually means ages.

 

Heaven and Hell are just purification processes to make the spirit pure for assimilaiton into the creator. They teach spirits to shed worldly connections. Actually, people probably create these layers themselves with thier addiction to form. Most people cannot understand the truly abstract. That's why god is given names and fomrs, and split into many gods. To graduate to the next level, the spirit must become aware of the illusions. As far as what determines where we go after death, I believe it's determined by a combination of karma and spiritual development. I think we actually go through the layers that we want to, on a subconscious level. The shadow (Jungian) gets what the shadow wants. Insecurities will put you through the hell bardos, whereas good intent and courage puts one through heavenly bardos. I think that most, if not all, will go through both the hells and heavens, because nobody is perfect.

 

But this is just my oppinion based on my logic, Even if I am right, then intellectual knowledge is still just the beginning. One must truly know it.

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